2021 End of Year Bonuses Forum

[ExpOriental]

I appreciate your chart but I think you have a weird way of looking at this that isn't helpful and isn't reflective of how the industry is going to regard things. In particular, you're comparing the spring/fall bonus from 21 with the special bonus multiplier from 20 when they're two totally different things. Are you a Mintz associate trying to push the idea that Mintz is doing something really special right now? They have raised the scale a little for juniors and mid-levels but not by much.

Everyone compares those two bonuses. There is a very high likelihood Cravath or whoever comes out and mentions EOY 7th year bonuses are $100k and everyone's reaction will be they are consistent from last year. No, I am not a Mintz associate. You sound like a partner trying to sway the conversation from the fact that Mintz are compensation leaders with 1/3rd of DPW's PEP.

The rest of your post is pointless because you and you alone believe end of year bonuses last year were topped at $140k when they were in fact topped at $100k. Even in your scenario where end of year bonuses last year were $140k, Mintz has committed to paying $40k + whatever end of year bonuses are, so you are still wrong. It's getting tiresome trying to explain this.

Settle yourself. I'm not a partner I'm a senior associate wanting to make sure that we're having an accurate conversation. No one gives a shit about "Mintz" except as a joke to occupy us until a real law firm announces in the next couple weeks.

There's no chance Cravath or a Cravath-like firm is going to announce a scale topped at 100k all-in and try to pull that much comp off the table vs. last year. A real firm is going to come by and either announce a November special bonus + EoY scale or else a combined all-in EoY scale and then we'll actually be off to the races. I suspect it will look something like (sticking to our class year example bumped a year for '21):

c/o 2014: 125k (base) + 50k (COVID): 175k

What Mintz would do then is top up, supposedly, so for someone in c/o 2014 they'd add another 35k to their promise if they stick to it. They'll work off the market base number with the goal of making sure they match market all-in, they're not going to try to come over the top of market all-in by 40k.

Anonymously shitting on Mintz (or any firm, really) in your very tryhard and cringy way does not make you sound authoritative. Just an FYI.

And no, since you're sure to snidely imply as much in response, I am not at Mintz and have no ties to it. Your post is just bad.

[Anonymous User]

Can we please resist the urge to bicker and stay on message here? The closest thing to a coherent payscale that can pressure other firms is this new Mintz Scale. If this feels weird, I'm sure it felt weird when Millbank jumped ahead the first time a few years ago too. Trying to undermine or murky the situation helps none of us. It's Mintz Scale until another firms beats it.

[Anonymous User]

Can we please resist the urge to bicker and stay on message here? The closest thing to a coherent payscale that can pressure other firms is this new Mintz Scale. If this feels weird, I'm sure it felt weird when Millbank jumped ahead the first time a few years ago too. Trying to undermine or murky the situation helps none of us. It's Mintz Scale until another firms beats it.

I literally can make meaningfully more money by moving over from my V50 to Mintz this or next month as a 4th year corporate associate, and I may actually try and do that if Mintz guarantees these bonuses for me on top of signing. You are absolutely right the new scale is a Mintz scale.

[Anonymous User]

Guys I'm at a V10 and I can testify based on seeing hard stats that our attrition numbers are very bad. This isn't a hypothetical debate it's definitely happening.

And I think the efforts to plug the leaks by hiring more randos from lower v100s aren't helping at all. I think all of us who have stuck around see deals going like this right now:

- get brought in one week before signing because the team comprised of laterals and a stub year has no idea what the fuck they are doing
- spend that week sprinting, getting up to speed, redoing all the work that should have been done during the prior 2 weeks
- deal signs
- repeat cycle

It is full on triage right now. The laterals have the best jobs in the world right now. Pretty soon there will be no homegrown associates left.

On the other hand...I am a lateral from a mid V50 firm and I have spent the last 2 months finding and correcting errors of "homegrown associates" that had checked out and stopped working while assuring the partners that everything was ok. Guess what? It wasn't all ok. And guess what else? Those "homegrown associates" are no longer around.

[Anonymous User]

Guys I'm at a V10 and I can testify based on seeing hard stats that our attrition numbers are very bad. This isn't a hypothetical debate it's definitely happening.

And I think the efforts to plug the leaks by hiring more randos from lower v100s aren't helping at all. I think all of us who have stuck around see deals going like this right now:

- get brought in one week before signing because the team comprised of laterals and a stub year has no idea what the fuck they are doing
- spend that week sprinting, getting up to speed, redoing all the work that should have been done during the prior 2 weeks
- deal signs
- repeat cycle

It is full on triage right now. The laterals have the best jobs in the world right now. Pretty soon there will be no homegrown associates left.

On the other hand...I am a lateral from a mid V50 firm and I have spent the last 2 months finding and correcting errors of "homegrown associates" that had checked out and stopped working while assuring the partners that everything was ok. Guess what? It wasn't all ok. And guess what else? Those "homegrown associates" are no longer around.

I was in a dep prep with the client who literally complained to me that all the previous associates on the case had left and pleaded with me to stay because she liked me

[JusticeChuckleNutz]

Firms are dying for associates right now. How would an hours cap even work? It will only happen if the partners turn down work, which they will not do.

They need to raise bonuses this year, and will need to give special bonuses to their top performers. Announcing Spring bonuses would also be smart as well.

It'll have to be a sea change in business practice over a few years. Boo-fucking-hoo for the firms who have been stingy on hiring forever instead of letting their juniors/laterals learn how to do their jobs for a bit instead of "hitting the ground running" by making sure everyone has a 100% utilization rate all the time and that the deals are "leanly staffed" and "you'll be working directly with a partner on this" (read: you will be doing the entire deal yourself). They fully have the choice to have a bigger associate bench that regularly bills 1600 instead of 2000 (and probably could pay less if they publicized that) and could pick up the slack in markets like this, and they don't do it, because the focus is always about maximizing profits this year, and fuck future years, because you could be gone after one headhunter call. So they goose everything up and then get mad when everybody hits their breaking point and they get pushback and departures, which turns into scrambling for any warm bodies for these things, who inevitably don't know what they're doing, because again, any money the firm invests into training is a little less marble in their place in Southampton.

Perhaps in the future they'll have to hold their nose and suffer the indignity of hiring 3.5 at Cornell instead of 3.6. Or God forbid, call some of those kids they said weren't a "cultural fit" (exactly who doesn't fit into the culture of sitting alone in your office with no visitors all day firing off "will do, thank" emails all day?).

Personally, I completely lose the ability to give a shit when a partner goes "I know we're all slammed right now" and then turns around the same day and tells the client we have capacity to take on new matters (we absolutely don't). And the thing that made me confident in my decision to lateral again the minute my signing bonus is locked up are the smarmy emails from management with "We have heard your concerns about burnout and mental health, and advise that you attend the firm's yoga class with Guru Lindsay Fridays at 6:30."

JFC this is the best thing I have read in a while. I couldn't sum up my indignation and frustration much better than this. -Burnt out mid-level

Hear hear

Slow clap.

Same reaction. This made my Friday.

[Anonymous User]

I appreciate your chart but I think you have a weird way of looking at this that isn't helpful and isn't reflective of how the industry is going to regard things. In particular, you're comparing the spring/fall bonus from 21 with the special bonus multiplier from 20 when they're two totally different things. Are you a Mintz associate trying to push the idea that Mintz is doing something really special right now? They have raised the scale a little for juniors and mid-levels but not by much.

Everyone compares those two bonuses. There is a very high likelihood Cravath or whoever comes out and mentions EOY 7th year bonuses are $100k and everyone's reaction will be they are consistent from last year. No, I am not a Mintz associate. You sound like a partner trying to sway the conversation from the fact that Mintz are compensation leaders with 1/3rd of DPW's PEP.

The rest of your post is pointless because you and you alone believe end of year bonuses last year were topped at $140k when they were in fact topped at $100k. Even in your scenario where end of year bonuses last year were $140k, Mintz has committed to paying $40k + whatever end of year bonuses are, so you are still wrong. It's getting tiresome trying to explain this.

Settle yourself. I'm not a partner I'm a senior associate wanting to make sure that we're having an accurate conversation. No one gives a shit about "Mintz" except as a joke to occupy us until a real law firm announces in the next couple weeks.

There's no chance Cravath or a Cravath-like firm is going to announce a scale topped at 100k all-in and try to pull that much comp off the table vs. last year. A real firm is going to come by and either announce a November special bonus + EoY scale or else a combined all-in EoY scale and then we'll actually be off to the races. I suspect it will look something like (sticking to our class year example bumped a year for '21):

c/o 2014: 125k (base) + 50k (COVID): 175k

What Mintz would do then is top up, supposedly, so for someone in c/o 2014 they'd add another 35k to their promise if they stick to it. They'll work off the market base number with the goal of making sure they match market all-in, they're not going to try to come over the top of market all-in by 40k.

Anonymously shitting on Mintz (or any firm, really) in your very tryhard and cringy way does not make you sound authoritative. Just an FYI.

And no, since you're sure to snidely imply as much in response, I am not at Mintz and have no ties to it. Your post is just bad.

Wow, a lot to unpack there friendo. As much as we might like the hypothetical world where what "Mintz" does matters, it won't. It literally won't. You have to have someone in the V25 announce to set an actual market scale which will then get the ball rolling and have an effect on other firms. This comes down to competition for talent--that's the origin of all of this anyway--and most people aren't going to drop 70 vault spots to go to Boston to work at fucking Mintz Levin.

[Anonymous User]

In all seriousness, every year I rank all firms in the Vault survey as the least prestigious, except (a) firms that made the first move, (b) firms that came over the top, and (c) a random smattering of firms like Orrick that have nice vacation policies, just so Vault doesn’t algorithmically remove my survey.

Cravath, if you want your number 1 ranking back, you know what to do: double the scale.

Seems like this is an opportune time to mention this is also how I respond to vault surveys minus Orrick. Not sure I trust Orrick to let me take a vacation in the middle of a deal I am running.

[ExpOriental]

Wow, a lot to unpack there friendo. As much as we might like the hypothetical world where what "Mintz" does matters, it won't. It literally won't. You have to have someone in the V25 announce to set an actual market scale which will then get the ball rolling and have an effect on other firms. This comes down to competition for talent--that's the origin of all of this anyway--and most people aren't going to drop 70 vault spots to go to Boston to work at fucking Mintz Levin.

I can tell that you really know what you're talking about because you take Vault rankings very seriously

[Anonymous User]

2020: $30k
2019: $50k
2018: $100k
2017: $130k
2016: $160k
2015: $180k
2014: $200k

Double the scale or bust.

[Anonymous User]

Wow, a lot to unpack there friendo. As much as we might like the hypothetical world where what "Mintz" does matters, it won't. It literally won't. You have to have someone in the V25 announce to set an actual market scale which will then get the ball rolling and have an effect on other firms. This comes down to competition for talent--that's the origin of all of this anyway--and most people aren't going to drop 70 vault spots to go to Boston to work at fucking Mintz Levin.

I can tell that you really know what you're talking about because you take Vault rankings very seriously

Dude, you are one of the worst people here as far as just obsessively arguing over picayune shit I remember this from the last time I came here during bonus season. I never said I take the rankings "very seriously" but when you're talking about a V80 firm it just does not have the sort of pull people are trying to attribute to it as far as talent competition so that what it does with compensation would matter. I wish all the Mintz people well and I'm glad they're getting good comp I have nothing personally against them.

[Anonymous User]

Wow, a lot to unpack there friendo. As much as we might like the hypothetical world where what "Mintz" does matters, it won't. It literally won't. You have to have someone in the V25 announce to set an actual market scale which will then get the ball rolling and have an effect on other firms. This comes down to competition for talent--that's the origin of all of this anyway--and most people aren't going to drop 70 vault spots to go to Boston to work at fucking Mintz Levin.

I can tell that you really know what you're talking about because you take Vault rankings very seriously

Couldn’t care less about who gets the ball rolling and agree Mintz hasn’t mattered for market dynamics in the past. Not likely too this year either.

More important is more money is more, and lots of associates won’t care where it’s coming from as long as it’s more. Another year with 100k topping the scale and associates will leave en masse.

[Anonymous User]

Can someone at Mintz actually just fucking confirm how much they were paid (both in 2020 and in 2021)? Absent that this bickering is pointless, go exercise this frustration on the purchase agreement markup you're 2 hours late on or something, goddamn.

[Ultramar vistas]

Can someone at Mintz actually just fucking confirm how much they were paid (both in 2020 and in 2021)? Absent that this bickering is pointless, go exercise this frustration on the purchase agreement markup you're 2 hours late on or something, goddamn.

Mintz Levin is just a state of mind. No one actually works there.

[2013]

To the anon who said what Mintz does doesn’t matter:

Mintz is a big Boston firm. It attracts the same students that Ropes, Wilmer and Goodwin attract.

Those three firms won’t allow Mintz to pay more than them.

If Ropes moves, Wilmer and Goodwin move in Boston and the V20 in NY will move. Ropes doesn’t have much sway in NY, but it’s still a competitor to many top tier firms in NY.

Wilmer moving will cause DC to move.

Goodwin moving will cause CA to move.

So, yes, Mintz doing something matters.

[ExpOriental]

Wow, a lot to unpack there friendo. As much as we might like the hypothetical world where what "Mintz" does matters, it won't. It literally won't. You have to have someone in the V25 announce to set an actual market scale which will then get the ball rolling and have an effect on other firms. This comes down to competition for talent--that's the origin of all of this anyway--and most people aren't going to drop 70 vault spots to go to Boston to work at fucking Mintz Levin.

I can tell that you really know what you're talking about because you take Vault rankings very seriously

Dude, you are one of the worst people here as far as just obsessively arguing over picayune shit I remember this from the last time I came here during bonus season. I never said I take the rankings "very seriously" but when you're talking about a V80 firm it just does not have the sort of pull people are trying to attribute to it as far as talent competition so that what it does with compensation would matter. I wish all the Mintz people well and I'm glad they're getting good comp I have nothing personally against them.

Excuse me, but "picayune" is a v25 word. Please restrain yourself.

I don't know why you're getting so upset. Like I said, it sounds like you really know what you're talking about.

[Anonymous User]

Wow, a lot to unpack there friendo. As much as we might like the hypothetical world where what "Mintz" does matters, it won't. It literally won't. You have to have someone in the V25 announce to set an actual market scale which will then get the ball rolling and have an effect on other firms. This comes down to competition for talent--that's the origin of all of this anyway--and most people aren't going to drop 70 vault spots to go to Boston to work at fucking Mintz Levin.

I can tell that you really know what you're talking about because you take Vault rankings very seriously

Dude, you are one of the worst people here as far as just obsessively arguing over picayune shit I remember this from the last time I came here during bonus season. I never said I take the rankings "very seriously" but when you're talking about a V80 firm it just does not have the sort of pull people are trying to attribute to it as far as talent competition so that what it does with compensation would matter. I wish all the Mintz people well and I'm glad they're getting good comp I have nothing personally against them.

Excuse me, but "picayune" is a v25 word. Please restrain yourself.

I don't know why you're getting so upset. Like I said, it sounds like you really know what you're talking about.

Lmao it’s def someone at a V25 wondering why s/he billed nearly 3000 hours this year while a mere V80 firm like Mintz is paying out these bonuses to their associates.

[Anonymous User]

To the anon who said what Mintz does doesn’t matter:

Mintz is a big Boston firm. It attracts the same students that Ropes, Wilmer and Goodwin attract.

Those three firms won’t allow Mintz to pay more than them.

If Ropes moves, Wilmer and Goodwin move in Boston and the V20 in NY will move. Ropes doesn’t have much sway in NY, but it’s still a competitor to many top tier firms in NY.

Wilmer moving will cause DC to move.

Goodwin moving will cause CA to move.

So, yes, Mintz doing something matters.

I'd accuse you of being a Mintz associate for equating Mintz with RG, WH, and GP. Look at a few firm profiles and representative matters and you'll see that they vastly different (no comment as to whether that actually matters). Alas, the fact that you dropped "Hale" when discussing the Boston market says otherwise.

That minor inaccuracy aside, this is roughly accurate. I think Goodwin moved before Ropes once or twice, but in general RG moves with the NYC crowd and WH/GP follow w/r/t salary/bonus bumps. None of these firms are going to allow lil Mintzy to top them on comp.

[2013]

To the anon who said what Mintz does doesn’t matter:

Mintz is a big Boston firm. It attracts the same students that Ropes, Wilmer and Goodwin attract.

Those three firms won’t allow Mintz to pay more than them.

If Ropes moves, Wilmer and Goodwin move in Boston and the V20 in NY will move. Ropes doesn’t have much sway in NY, but it’s still a competitor to many top tier firms in NY.

Wilmer moving will cause DC to move.

Goodwin moving will cause CA to move.

So, yes, Mintz doing something matters.

I'd accuse you of being a Mintz associate for equating Mintz with RG, WH, and GP. Look at a few firm profiles and representative matters and you'll see that they vastly different (no comment as to whether that actually matters). Alas, the fact that you dropped "Hale" when discussing the Boston market says otherwise.

That minor inaccuracy aside, this is roughly accurate. I think Goodwin moved before Ropes once or twice, but in general RG moves with the NYC crowd and WH/GP follow w/r/t salary/bonus bumps. None of these firms are going to allow lil Mintzy to top them on comp.

I’m not equating Mintz to the other three. It’s on the same tier as Foley Hoag. They do hire from the same pool of associates though, which was my point.

Also, people in Boston call it Wilmer now too. Only people who are from legacy Hale & Dorr care about it.

[cfcm]

Let’s not Mintz words: where is the Cravath memo?

[Anonymous User]

To the anon who said what Mintz does doesn’t matter:

Mintz is a big Boston firm. It attracts the same students that Ropes, Wilmer and Goodwin attract.

Those three firms won’t allow Mintz to pay more than them.

If Ropes moves, Wilmer and Goodwin move in Boston and the V20 in NY will move. Ropes doesn’t have much sway in NY, but it’s still a competitor to many top tier firms in NY.

Wilmer moving will cause DC to move.

Goodwin moving will cause CA to move.

So, yes, Mintz doing something matters.

Ropes doesn't have much sway in NY, but it's still a V20 and a top firm, if not the top firm, in its home city.harder to dismiss than Mintz. If Ropes matches -- how do the NY firms get away with not matching Ropes? An STB associate might actually bail for Ropes if it means getting paid more.

[Anonymous User]

To the anon who said what Mintz does doesn’t matter:

Mintz is a big Boston firm. It attracts the same students that Ropes, Wilmer and Goodwin attract.

Those three firms won’t allow Mintz to pay more than them.

If Ropes moves, Wilmer and Goodwin move in Boston and the V20 in NY will move. Ropes doesn’t have much sway in NY, but it’s still a competitor to many top tier firms in NY.

Wilmer moving will cause DC to move.

Goodwin moving will cause CA to move.

So, yes, Mintz doing something matters.

Ropes doesn't have much sway in NY, but it's still a V20 and a top firm, if not the top firm, in its home city.harder to dismiss than Mintz. If Ropes matches -- how do the NY firms get away with not matching Ropes? An STB associate might actually bail for Ropes if it means getting paid more.

The V25 senior associate shitting on Mintz is an asshole, but he's not wrong. A firm with the actual capability of pulling away top talent from top firms has to move the salary scale for the news to matter.

Milbank moving the scale is very different. Associates from the V10 will go to Milbank if it means being paid materially more. No one is taking the long-term career hit of going to Mintz for an extra $20 or 40K or whatever it is.

This bickering is pointless though, we need to wait until next week when one of the actual market makers move.

[Anonymous User]

so what are the odds ropes matches Mintz in boston, at which point it also has to pay the same in NY? Could we be seeing a RopesMintz Scale as new top

[Anonymous User]

Just calm down and let Milbank/DPW/Cravath make a move. Mintz is not going to set the scale for the market.

[Anonymous User]

so what are the odds ropes matches Mintz in boston, at which point it also has to pay the same in NY? Could we be seeing a RopesMintz Scale as new top

I’m not gonna shit on Mintz like the poster above, but Ropes and Goodwin aren’t moving because of Mintz. Ropes loses people to Choate, K&E and Goodwin. Goodwin loses people to Ropes, K&E, Cooley and Gunderson. We get SA data from people who go to other firms. It’s not exactly a parade of Mintz acceptances