NY to 200k?! Forum

[LBJ's Hair]

How did Wachtell’s unique position in the market start, historically?

Like, they get treated in many ways as any other large NY law firm for prestige purposes, and not as a boutique (I.e, they don’t get dinged for being a smaller firm like Susman or W&C does in the vault rankings).

But for compensation, the rest of the market just ignores what Wachtell does as irrelevant (do we even know what their base salary is anymore?) and makes no attempt to match their base or bonus. Weren’t they paying 170k when everyone else was paying 160k? How did they manage to be market leaders in base salary by a reasonably small amount? If Cravath or K&E tried to set up 10-15k ahead of everyone else, it would pull the whole market (including Wachtell) up, but Wachtell seems immune from that.

if they raised to match WLRK on salary, WLRK would just raise to top them. not much point

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

How did Wachtell’s unique position in the market start, historically?

Like, they get treated in many ways as any other large NY law firm for prestige purposes, and not as a boutique (I.e, they don’t get dinged for being a smaller firm like Susman or W&C does in the vault rankings).

But for compensation, the rest of the market just ignores what Wachtell does as irrelevant (do we even know what their base salary is anymore?) and makes no attempt to match their base or bonus. Weren’t they paying 170k when everyone else was paying 160k? How did they manage to be market leaders in base salary by a reasonably small amount? If Cravath or K&E tried to set up 10-15k ahead of everyone else, it would pull the whole market (including Wachtell) up, but Wachtell seems immune from that.

It is frustrating to find any kind of substantiated info on Wachtell's comp, but the answer is that Wachtell has been paying the same kinds of bonuses since before a standardized market comp really coalesced in the '90s. A lot of the biggest firms were reasonably close to Cravath back then, so when salaries started to become well-reported public info, that's who everyone decided to keep up with.

[Anonymous User]

The people claiming that Kirkland and Latham or not on DPW's level are either trolling or are relying far too much on NYC's conception of prestige. Get real.

I live in Manhattan, btw.

They are likely people who have never actually worked for a firm or had client interactions (read: law students or new attorneys).

Clients hire firms based on past work done for them or other similarly sized companies/firms or because of a specific partner. Clients do not care (and I highly doubt if they even check to see) what law school the associates on the team went to or what the associate make up of the firm is. See Chambers for actual “prestige” of firms in different practice groups in different markets. Vault, TLS and ATL are all pointless rankings. To make grand statements like X firm isn’t as prestigious as Y firm is stupid when they are regarded as the best in the world practice group A and practice group B respectively and have the profits, revenues and deal flow to back it up.

I agree that clients generally do not care about where the faceless associates they tangentially interact with went to law school. However, there are definitely practicing lawyers in NYC who think Debevoise is more prestigious than GD or Kirkland solely because its an old school NYC white shoe firm.

Well regardless, id say that's true, even if it wasn't a white shoe firm.

[NYto200K]

the amount of satire being taken seriously on this site is insane

this profession is the worst lmao. don't all the bankers who we service look down on us anyway? what's all the fuss about prestige about?

lol at worrying about what bankers think of us. what an absurd idea.

They're not defending me from going to jail or my law firm from paying fines/being investigated because i/we fucked up.

Edit: In case the last sentence isn't obvious, we're saving them from their fuck ups. hard lol at caring how they view their saviors.

[Anonymous User]

the amount of satire being taken seriously on this site is insane

this profession is the worst lmao. don't all the bankers who we service look down on us anyway? what's all the fuss about prestige about?

lol at worrying about what bankers think of us. what an absurd idea.

They're not defending me from going to jail or my law firm from paying fines/being investigated because i/we fucked up.

Edit: In case the last sentence isn't obvious, we're saving them from their fuck ups. hard lol at caring how they view their saviors.

I think he meant bankers looking down on corporate lawyers, not litigators.

[Sackboy]

I think he meant bankers looking down on corporate lawyers, not litigators.

I do corporate work (albeit niche) and am on enough calls/interact with bankers enough. I've honestly never thought about how they few us, and I've never had a few on them beyond "wow, these bankers are great to work with" or "wow, I hate working with these bankers." Thinking about it any more than that seems like a great way to waste the very little precious time we have on this rock. Given how much I waste here, I can't afford to spend any on bankers.

[Anonymous User]

Jest aside - do PW, STB, GDC have “it”?

If you have to ask...

I mean I’d say STB has “it,” PW not far behind (but not ultra elite), and GDC lagging - at least for pure corporate prestige. Hard to gauge prestige as a newbi

[Anonymous User]

Jest aside - do PW, STB, GDC have “it”?

If you have to ask...

I mean I’d say STB has “it,” PW not far behind (but not ultra elite), and GDC lagging - at least for pure corporate prestige. Hard to gauge prestige as a newbi

This is accurate. Note Paul Comma Weiss and GDC have elite litigation practices, as does Quinn

[blair.waldorf]

Any way we can get back to just reporting the firms that match? Who gives a shit about anything else.

[Anonymous User]

Jest aside - do PW, STB, GDC have “it”?

If you have to ask...

I mean I’d say STB has “it,” PW not far behind (but not ultra elite), and GDC lagging - at least for pure corporate prestige. Hard to gauge prestige as a newbi

This is accurate. Note Paul Comma Weiss and GDC have elite litigation practices, as does Quinn

Where’s Weil in all this?

[Anonymous User]

Jest aside - do PW, STB, GDC have “it”?

If you have to ask...

I mean I’d say STB has “it,” PW not far behind (but not ultra elite), and GDC lagging - at least for pure corporate prestige. Hard to gauge prestige as a newbi

This is accurate. Note Paul Comma Weiss and GDC have elite litigation practices, as does Quinn

Get that Kirkland almost has “it” b/c PPP is so high (despite the non white shoe model), but why does Latham even get in the mix?

Weil might be by GDC

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Let's drop the pointless prestige arguments. All these firms pay first years more than most "elite" law students' parents have ever made. Nobody cares what some lowlife kids think about how prestigious they are.

[Anonymous User]

Jest aside - do PW, STB, GDC have “it”?

If you have to ask...

I mean I’d say STB has “it,” PW not far behind (but not ultra elite), and GDC lagging - at least for pure corporate prestige. Hard to gauge prestige as a newbi

This is accurate. Note Paul Comma Weiss and GDC have elite litigation practices, as does Quinn

Where’s Weil in all this?

Quit trolling.

[Anonymous User]

Jest aside - do PW, STB, GDC have “it”?

If you have to ask...

I mean I’d say STB has “it,” PW not far behind (but not ultra elite), and GDC lagging - at least for pure corporate prestige. Hard to gauge prestige as a newbi

This is accurate. Note Paul Comma Weiss and GDC have elite litigation practices, as does Quinn

Where’s Weil in all this?

Same as Latham and Kirkland

[Anonymous User]

Let's drop the pointless prestige arguments. All these firms pay first years more than most "elite" law students' parents have ever made. Nobody cares what some lowlife kids think about how prestigious they are.

I feel like 20% of my law school class at my T6 came from a family with a net worth of $15mm or more, and most came from affluent families. And most of my law school friends can barely afford to survive on $300k.

[Anonymous User]

Jest aside - do PW, STB, GDC have “it”?

If you have to ask...

I mean I’d say STB has “it,” PW not far behind (but not ultra elite), and GDC lagging - at least for pure corporate prestige. Hard to gauge prestige as a newbi

This is accurate. Note Paul Comma Weiss and GDC have elite litigation practices, as does Quinn

Where’s Weil in all this?

Same as Latham and Kirkland

Only in your V12 dreams.

[Anonymous User]

So far I think we are seeing big swinging dicks and small dicks trying to compensate. Question is when the 5.75"ers announce they will match.

[Anonymous User]

I feel like everyone here is missing the point.

First-year salaries were $145,000 in 2006. That’s $186,150 in 2020 dollars. $205,000 starting is only a ~10% increase in salary after adjusting for inflation over starting salaries in 2006! (This doesn’t even look at bonuses, which are about the same now as they were 15 years ago).

DPW’s PPEP was $2 million in 2006 (or $2,567,576 in 2020 dollars). DPW’s PPEP in 2020 was $6,400,000. That’s a ~250% increase in partner profits after adjusting for inflation in 15 years!!

These salary raises are a joke. Were non-equity partners a thing 15 years ago? Were associates billing 300 hours/month a thing 15 years ago?? Last time I checked, partners didn’t invent some type of innovative solution/strategy that magically increased their profits in the past 15 years. All they did was work us harder and bill us out at higher rates (oh and also fire support staff). Yet the partners deserve to keep all the extra $$$ from me billing out 75 hours every week??

Here I am, 11 p.m. on a Friday still having hours left of work to do tonight, reading about whether Cravath will bump stub year pay a whole $2,500!! Give me a break. If you are an associate at a V10 or any other firm with obscene PPEP figures, you are literally being robbed blind.

These raises do nothing. They are not gonna stop me from quitting this stupid job as soon as I get an in-house offer and they are not gonna make me feel any better while I work my whole weekend away. Wake me up when partners get their head out of their asses and raise NY to 250k.

[Anonymous User]

I feel like everyone here is missing the point.

First-year salaries were $145,000 in 2006. That’s $186,150 in 2020 dollars. $205,000 starting is only a ~10% increase in salary after adjusting for inflation over starting salaries in 2006! (This doesn’t even look at bonuses, which are about the same now as they were 15 years ago).

DPW’s PPEP was $2 million in 2006 (or $2,567,576 in 2020 dollars). DPW’s PPEP in 2020 was $4,514,000. That’s a ~250% increase in partner profits after adjusting for inflation in 15 years!!

These salary raises are a joke. Were non-equity partners a thing 15 years ago? Were associates billing 300 hours/month a thing 15 years ago?? Last time I checked, partners didn’t invent some type of innovative solution/strategy that magically increased their profits in the past 15 years. All they did was work us harder and bill us out at higher rates (oh and also fire support staff). Yet the partners deserve to keep all the extra $$$ from me billing out 75 hours every week??

Here I am, 11 p.m. on a Friday still having hours left of work to do tonight, reading about whether Cravath will bump stub year pay a whole $2,500!! Give me a break. If you are an associate at a V10 or any other firm with obscene PPEP figures, you are literally being robbed blind.

These raises do nothing. They are not gonna stop me from quitting this stupid job as soon as I get an in-house offer and they are not gonna make me feel any better while I work my whole weekend away. Wake me up when partners get their head out of their asses and raise NY to 250k.

+1 on this. y'all are getting fooled into thinking this meager raise is a miraculous gift, but the partner class is just grinding you the same as it ever was

[Anonymous User]

The above post makes me wonder why you all even bother working yourselves to the bone. IF you don't want partner, why not just coast on 2000-2200 hours until you can go in-house? Anymore than that, just start declining work or not getting around to it. Are they really going to fire you in this market? How much of all the stress is self-induced chasing because biglaw associates are strivers for nothing. Seems like people working 2500+ are kind of doing it to themselves? (again, if you don't want partner) Idk. I'm a lit associate who will go clerk eventually so I don't really care about hours.

[Anonymous User]

I feel like everyone here is missing the point.

First-year salaries were $145,000 in 2006. That’s $186,150 in 2020 dollars. $205,000 starting is only a ~10% increase in salary after adjusting for inflation over starting salaries in 2006! (This doesn’t even look at bonuses, which are about the same now as they were 15 years ago).

DPW’s PPEP was $2 million in 2006 (or $2,567,576 in 2020 dollars). DPW’s PPEP in 2020 was $4,514,000. That’s a ~250% increase in partner profits after adjusting for inflation in 15 years!!

These salary raises are a joke. Were non-equity partners a thing 15 years ago? Were associates billing 300 hours/month a thing 15 years ago?? Last time I checked, partners didn’t invent some type of innovative solution/strategy that magically increased their profits in the past 15 years. All they did was work us harder and bill us out at higher rates (oh and also fire support staff). Yet the partners deserve to keep all the extra $$$ from me billing out 75 hours every week??

Here I am, 11 p.m. on a Friday still having hours left of work to do tonight, reading about whether Cravath will bump stub year pay a whole $2,500!! Give me a break. If you are an associate at a V10 or any other firm with obscene PPEP figures, you are literally being robbed blind.

These raises do nothing. They are not gonna stop me from quitting this stupid job as soon as I get an in-house offer and they are not gonna make me feel any better while I work my whole weekend away. Wake me up when partners get their head out of their asses and raise NY to 250k.

This is accurate. I would also add that comp in 2007 was $160k plus $40k bonus for first years, so first-year comp hasn’t at all even kept up with the cost of living in NYC. But DPW’s PPP was $6.4 million last year, not $4.5 million. It went up 40% in one year.

[Anonymous User]

I feel like everyone here is missing the point.

First-year salaries were $145,000 in 2006. That’s $186,150 in 2020 dollars. $205,000 starting is only a ~10% increase in salary after adjusting for inflation over starting salaries in 2006! (This doesn’t even look at bonuses, which are about the same now as they were 15 years ago).

DPW’s PPEP was $2 million in 2006 (or $2,567,576 in 2020 dollars). DPW’s PPEP in 2020 was $4,514,000. That’s a ~250% increase in partner profits after adjusting for inflation in 15 years!!

These salary raises are a joke. Were non-equity partners a thing 15 years ago? Were associates billing 300 hours/month a thing 15 years ago?? Last time I checked, partners didn’t invent some type of innovative solution/strategy that magically increased their profits in the past 15 years. All they did was work us harder and bill us out at higher rates (oh and also fire support staff). Yet the partners deserve to keep all the extra $$$ from me billing out 75 hours every week??

Here I am, 11 p.m. on a Friday still having hours left of work to do tonight, reading about whether Cravath will bump stub year pay a whole $2,500!! Give me a break. If you are an associate at a V10 or any other firm with obscene PPEP figures, you are literally being robbed blind.

These raises do nothing. They are not gonna stop me from quitting this stupid job as soon as I get an in-house offer and they are not gonna make me feel any better while I work my whole weekend away. Wake me up when partners get their head out of their asses and raise NY to 250k.

This is accurate. I would also add that comp in 2007 was $160k plus $40k bonus for first years, so first-year comp hasn’t at all even kept up with the cost of living in NYC. But DPW’s PPP was $6.4 million last year, not $4.5 million. It went up 40% in one year.

Jesus… post updated with correct #

[LittleRedCorvette]

So far I think we are seeing big swinging dicks and small dicks trying to compensate. Question is when the 5.75"ers announce they will match.

Is that not big?

[Anonymous User]

The above post makes me wonder why you all even bother working yourselves to the bone. IF you don't want partner, why not just coast on 2000-2200 hours until you can go in-house? Anymore than that, just start declining work or not getting around to it. Are they really going to fire you in this market? How much of all the stress is self-induced chasing because biglaw associates are strivers for nothing. Seems like people working 2500+ are kind of doing it to themselves? (again, if you don't want partner) Idk. I'm a lit associate who will go clerk eventually so I don't really care about hours.

This. It is absolutely self induced, I dont understand why one would ever bill more than 2000 if you don't care about becoming partner. If you do want to be partner, then perhaps 2200 is understandable but anything more is being a complicit in this whole vicious circle. Even for posterity sake, 2200 should be the absolute max anyone bills.

[TTTTransactional]

So far I think we are seeing big swinging dicks and small dicks trying to compensate. Question is when the 5.75"ers announce they will match.

Is that not big?

Don't worry. As always, anon is just overstating and overcompensating.

I'm sure you're actually a very AverageRedCorvette.