Incoming Associates Getting Deferred Forum

[lawlo]

Got an email from LW today re: starting the conflicts process for "2020 Fall new hires." Said start date options will be communicated asap

Keeping my fingers crossed for a fall start, but with the CA bar likely being moved to October now, I guess my earliest possible start wouldn't be until November

Seems unlikely firms would start new associates during the beginning of the holiday season imo. I'm expecting January start dates all around.

[Anonymous User]

Got an email from LW today re: starting the conflicts process for "2020 Fall new hires." Said start date options will be communicated asap

Keeping my fingers crossed for a fall start, but with the CA bar likely being moved to October now, I guess my earliest possible start wouldn't be until November

Seems unlikely firms would start new associates during the beginning of the holiday season imo. I'm expecting January start dates all around.

This was my initial thought too, but both Cravath and Wachtell have communicated a possible November start option. December seems very unlikely, I agree.

[Anonymous User]

Got an email from LW today re: starting the conflicts process for "2020 Fall new hires." Said start date options will be communicated asap

Keeping my fingers crossed for a fall start, but with the CA bar likely being moved to October now, I guess my earliest possible start wouldn't be until November

Seems unlikely firms would start new associates during the beginning of the holiday season imo. I'm expecting January start dates all around.

This was my initial thought too, but both Cravath and Wachtell have communicated a possible November start option. December seems very unlikely, I agree.

Cravath and Wachtell are beholden to just the NY bar (which for now is still set for Sept. 9/10). LW has six offices in CA, so it would make sense for them to push start dates to late October/early November if the CA bar is pushed to Oct.

[Anonymous User]

Got an email from LW today re: starting the conflicts process for "2020 Fall new hires." Said start date options will be communicated asap

Keeping my fingers crossed for a fall start, but with the CA bar likely being moved to October now, I guess my earliest possible start wouldn't be until November

Seems unlikely firms would start new associates during the beginning of the holiday season imo. I'm expecting January start dates all around.

This was my initial thought too, but both Cravath and Wachtell have communicated a possible November start option. December seems very unlikely, I agree.

Cravath and Wachtell are beholden to just the NY bar (which for now is still set for Sept. 9/10). LW has six offices in CA, so it would make sense for them to push start dates to late October/early November if the CA bar is pushed to Oct.

Right, I was saying a late 2020 start date could still be possible for LW and others (in response to the poster who said firms likely won't want to start people at the beginning of the holiday season and will thus defer to 2021). I was just using CSM/WLRK as examples of firms that seem ok with starting associates as close to the holidays as November.

[Anonymous User]

LW's normal start dates are end of Sept, end of Oct, and Monday after thanksgiving (they allow incoming associates to choose). So in reality, they don't even need to move start dates to accommodate delayed bar exams, with the exception of associates in states with an early October bar not being able to start at the end of September. My understanding is that a lot of the top firms are like this and it's pretty normal for new associates to start close to year end.

[Anonymous User]

My firm deferred with only a measly salary advance, and I'm super bitter. I chose this firm over other, more profitable firms that have not deferred yet (and maybe won't at all) for many reasons, one being the firm's culture and the fact that they seemed to actually care about their attorneys as opposed to seeing them as cogs in a wheel. I was really excited to start at my firm because I loved the people I will be working with, but now I'm dreading working for partners who voted to screw me over.

0Ls/1Ls: look at how firms behaved during this crisis when choosing a firm.

To be clear, deferral is fine/expected. I am bitter because my firm chose to be extremely cheap and give us barely enough money to live off of in the form of a loan, especially when peer firms in my market have been much more generous towards deferred incoming associates. I wouldn't be as upset if the coronavirus didn't make it so difficult to find alternative employment. I hope to find a job after the bar exam, but with the coronavirus pandemic, I'm not sure if I'll find anything that doesn't require exposing myself to the virus (working at a grocery store, etc.).

[lookatriffraffplease]

if you're anon why not out the firm?

[Sporty1911]

My firm deferred with only a measly salary advance, and I'm super bitter. I chose this firm over other, more profitable firms that have not deferred yet (and maybe won't at all) for many reasons, one being the firm's culture and the fact that they seemed to actually care about their attorneys as opposed to seeing them as cogs in a wheel. I was really excited to start at my firm because I loved the people I will be working with, but now I'm dreading working for partners who voted to screw me over.

0Ls/1Ls: look at how firms behaved during this crisis when choosing a firm.

To be clear, deferral is fine/expected. I am bitter because my firm chose to be extremely cheap and give us barely enough money to live off of in the form of a loan, especially when peer firms in my market have been much more generous towards deferred incoming associates. I wouldn't be as upset if the coronavirus didn't make it so difficult to find alternative employment. I hope to find a job after the bar exam, but with the coronavirus pandemic, I'm not sure if I'll find anything that doesn't require exposing myself to the virus (working at a grocery store, etc.).

I think it's important to point out that deferral decisions at a lot of firms are made by the Executive Committee and not by individual partner's in specific practice groups. Based on what I have gathered from speaking with friends, partners in many practice groups would rather have associates starting on time and are still looking forward to new first years. Obviously, some of this may be puffery from the partners, but it's still worth keeping in mind that the people you'll be working with on a day-to-day basis likely had no input on the decision to defer.

[Anonymous User]

if you're anon why not out the firm?

The reddit thread has firms that have deferred and what those firms have offered in terms of financial assistance. I'm not going to say which firm I am at as my incoming class is kind of small.

[Anonymous User]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned (I did a quick search for it but got lazy) but what happens if we get a salary advance then get our offers rescinded? I'm assuming firms wouldn't go at fired first-years for the money but...

[hdr]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned (I did a quick search for it but got lazy) but what happens if we get a salary advance then get our offers rescinded? I'm assuming firms wouldn't go at fired first-years for the money but...

There's zero chance they go after you for the money.

[Anonymous User]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned (I did a quick search for it but got lazy) but what happens if we get a salary advance then get our offers rescinded? I'm assuming firms wouldn't go at fired first-years for the money but...

There's zero chance they go after you for the money.

I figured. The language about clawing it back was kinda broad so I just wanted to confirm.

[Anonymous User]

My firm deferred with only a measly salary advance, and I'm super bitter. I chose this firm over other, more profitable firms that have not deferred yet (and maybe won't at all) for many reasons, one being the firm's culture and the fact that they seemed to actually care about their attorneys as opposed to seeing them as cogs in a wheel. I was really excited to start at my firm because I loved the people I will be working with, but now I'm dreading working for partners who voted to screw me over.

0Ls/1Ls: look at how firms behaved during this crisis when choosing a firm.

To be clear, deferral is fine/expected. I am bitter because my firm chose to be extremely cheap and give us barely enough money to live off of in the form of a loan, especially when peer firms in my market have been much more generous towards deferred incoming associates. I wouldn't be as upset if the coronavirus didn't make it so difficult to find alternative employment. I hope to find a job after the bar exam, but with the coronavirus pandemic, I'm not sure if I'll find anything that doesn't require exposing myself to the virus (working at a grocery store, etc.).

I'm very sorry for what you're going through.

I didn't believe in "culture" much, and even less now. I would choose a firm strictly based on rankings and figures. For 0Ls/1Ls, this is just my 2 cents and I know almost nothing, but I felt culture / "caring about associates" is just a myth. It's a business and it's all about making money. A farm may treat its chicken and cows nicely, but it doesn't really mean anything...

I would also appreciate it if someone is willing to correct me if I'm too cynical or pessimistic.

[Anonymous User]

My firm deferred with only a measly salary advance, and I'm super bitter. I chose this firm over other, more profitable firms that have not deferred yet (and maybe won't at all) for many reasons, one being the firm's culture and the fact that they seemed to actually care about their attorneys as opposed to seeing them as cogs in a wheel. I was really excited to start at my firm because I loved the people I will be working with, but now I'm dreading working for partners who voted to screw me over.

0Ls/1Ls: look at how firms behaved during this crisis when choosing a firm.

To be clear, deferral is fine/expected. I am bitter because my firm chose to be extremely cheap and give us barely enough money to live off of in the form of a loan, especially when peer firms in my market have been much more generous towards deferred incoming associates. I wouldn't be as upset if the coronavirus didn't make it so difficult to find alternative employment. I hope to find a job after the bar exam, but with the coronavirus pandemic, I'm not sure if I'll find anything that doesn't require exposing myself to the virus (working at a grocery store, etc.).

I'm very sorry for what you're going through.

I didn't believe in "culture" much, and even less now. I would choose a firm strictly based on rankings and figures. For 0Ls/1Ls, this is just my 2 cents and I know almost nothing, but I felt culture / "caring about associates" is just a myth. It's a business and it's all about making money. A farm may treat its chicken and cows nicely, but it doesn't really mean anything...

I would also appreciate it if someone is willing to correct me if I'm too cynical or pessimistic.

I certainly think firms differ re: work/life balance, how they treat attorneys, etc. I had zero interest in going to a sweatshop and working 100 hours a week. I truly didn't think I had it in me.

However, I'm just trying to last 2-3 years until I go in house, so I kinda wish I'd gone to one of the "sweatshops" that hasn't deferred. I can do anything for a couple years.

[Anonymous User]

Heard from a couple of juniors in different v50 firms whom I know personally that they are very very busy... looks like companies are crazy to borrow money, ipo, etc. in case the economy gets worse or anything unexpected happens in the coming election. Yet we are still worrying about getting deferred and firms are deferring 1st years...it doesn't make much sense to me.

[jigiwo1898jupiter]

Heard from a couple of juniors in different v50 firms whom I know personally that they are very very busy... looks like companies are crazy to borrow money, ipo, etc. in case the economy gets worse or anything unexpected happens in the coming election. Yet we are still worrying about getting deferred and firms are deferring 1st years...it doesn't make much sense to me.

Firms are also businesses, so they, like the companies "crazy to borrow money", are preparing in case the economy gets worse or anything unexpected happens in the coming election.

[nls336]

My firm deferred with only a measly salary advance, and I'm super bitter. I chose this firm over other, more profitable firms that have not deferred yet (and maybe won't at all) for many reasons, one being the firm's culture and the fact that they seemed to actually care about their attorneys as opposed to seeing them as cogs in a wheel. I was really excited to start at my firm because I loved the people I will be working with, but now I'm dreading working for partners who voted to screw me over.

0Ls/1Ls: look at how firms behaved during this crisis when choosing a firm.

To be clear, deferral is fine/expected. I am bitter because my firm chose to be extremely cheap and give us barely enough money to live off of in the form of a loan, especially when peer firms in my market have been much more generous towards deferred incoming associates. I wouldn't be as upset if the coronavirus didn't make it so difficult to find alternative employment. I hope to find a job after the bar exam, but with the coronavirus pandemic, I'm not sure if I'll find anything that doesn't require exposing myself to the virus (working at a grocery store, etc.).

I'm very sorry for what you're going through.

I didn't believe in "culture" much, and even less now. I would choose a firm strictly based on rankings and figures. For 0Ls/1Ls, this is just my 2 cents and I know almost nothing, but I felt culture / "caring about associates" is just a myth. It's a business and it's all about making money. A farm may treat its chicken and cows nicely, but it doesn't really mean anything...

I would also appreciate it if someone is willing to correct me if I'm too cynical or pessimistic.

Would agree with this but put it in a different way. At the end of the day picking your firm is about picking the organization you think you could have the most symbiotic relationship with. The firms do have extra perks and lifestyle niceties to offer you (or did during the boom time) and going with a firm that skimps on those makes your relationship with the firm feel more parasitic than symbiotic. Everywhere you work will feel the same on some level, especially in a major market like NYC. You want to search for symbiosis, make sure you can get something beyond just the salary out of the deal, even if they are just small perks that make you feel like your firm cares that you are alive or would notice quickly if you died at your desk.

At virtually every NYC (for example) firm there will be long hours, days where you get yelled at, difficult tasks, "meaningful work/clients," these things will be expected of you/will just come with the territory. BUT, not all firms will seek to compensate you through extras like nice parties, good food, not being cheap on the late-night cars/dinner expenditures, not making you feel like getting a reimbursement is clawing money from Smaug. These "little" things are by no means necessary and of course a privilege, but at the end of the day, they might make the difference between you being okay to live at work (especially as a young lawyer) and you feeling chewed up & spit out (at least for a while).

The advice to remember which firms are cutting young lawyers or being unnecessarily cheap with them is well-founded because it shows that these little things are absent and the relationship is/will be as an associate more parasitic than symbiotic for you. Anyway, that's just how I see it.

[Ultramar vistas]

My firm deferred with only a measly salary advance, and I'm super bitter. I chose this firm over other, more profitable firms that have not deferred yet (and maybe won't at all) for many reasons, one being the firm's culture and the fact that they seemed to actually care about their attorneys as opposed to seeing them as cogs in a wheel. I was really excited to start at my firm because I loved the people I will be working with, but now I'm dreading working for partners who voted to screw me over.

0Ls/1Ls: look at how firms behaved during this crisis when choosing a firm.

To be clear, deferral is fine/expected. I am bitter because my firm chose to be extremely cheap and give us barely enough money to live off of in the form of a loan, especially when peer firms in my market have been much more generous towards deferred incoming associates. I wouldn't be as upset if the coronavirus didn't make it so difficult to find alternative employment. I hope to find a job after the bar exam, but with the coronavirus pandemic, I'm not sure if I'll find anything that doesn't require exposing myself to the virus (working at a grocery store, etc.).

I'm very sorry for what you're going through.

I didn't believe in "culture" much, and even less now. I would choose a firm strictly based on rankings and figures. For 0Ls/1Ls, this is just my 2 cents and I know almost nothing, but I felt culture / "caring about associates" is just a myth. It's a business and it's all about making money. A farm may treat its chicken and cows nicely, but it doesn't really mean anything...

I would also appreciate it if someone is willing to correct me if I'm too cynical or pessimistic.

Would agree with this but put it in a different way. At the end of the day picking your firm is about picking the organization you think you could have the most symbiotic relationship with. The firms do have extra perks and lifestyle niceties to offer you (or did during the boom time) and going with a firm that skimps on those makes your relationship with the firm feel more parasitic than symbiotic. Everywhere you work will feel the same on some level, especially in a major market like NYC. You want to search for symbiosis, make sure you can get something beyond just the salary out of the deal, even if they are just small perks that make you feel like your firm cares that you are alive or would notice quickly if you died at your desk.

At virtually every NYC (for example) firm there will be long hours, days where you get yelled at, difficult tasks, "meaningful work/clients," these things will be expected of you/will just come with the territory. BUT, not all firms will seek to compensate you through extras like nice parties, good food, not being cheap on the late-night cars/dinner expenditures, not making you feel like getting a reimbursement is clawing money from Smaug. These "little" things are by no means necessary and of course a privilege, but at the end of the day, they might make the difference between you being okay to live at work (especially as a young lawyer) and you feeling chewed up & spit out (at least for a while).

The advice to remember which firms are cutting young lawyers or being unnecessarily cheap with them is well-founded because it shows that these little things are absent and the relationship is/will be as an associate more parasitic than symbiotic for you. Anyway, that's just how I see it.

Speak for yourself but I work at a V10 and have never been yelled at, nor do I know of anyone in my class who has been yelled at.

To the original question asker, I strongly suggest that if you hear people talk about Partners screaming or yelling as anything more common than a “crazy story that happened last year” kind of thing, run.

Agree with the rest - perks and treatment vary considerably.

[nls336]

My firm deferred with only a measly salary advance, and I'm super bitter. I chose this firm over other, more profitable firms that have not deferred yet (and maybe won't at all) for many reasons, one being the firm's culture and the fact that they seemed to actually care about their attorneys as opposed to seeing them as cogs in a wheel. I was really excited to start at my firm because I loved the people I will be working with, but now I'm dreading working for partners who voted to screw me over.

0Ls/1Ls: look at how firms behaved during this crisis when choosing a firm.

To be clear, deferral is fine/expected. I am bitter because my firm chose to be extremely cheap and give us barely enough money to live off of in the form of a loan, especially when peer firms in my market have been much more generous towards deferred incoming associates. I wouldn't be as upset if the coronavirus didn't make it so difficult to find alternative employment. I hope to find a job after the bar exam, but with the coronavirus pandemic, I'm not sure if I'll find anything that doesn't require exposing myself to the virus (working at a grocery store, etc.).

I'm very sorry for what you're going through.

I didn't believe in "culture" much, and even less now. I would choose a firm strictly based on rankings and figures. For 0Ls/1Ls, this is just my 2 cents and I know almost nothing, but I felt culture / "caring about associates" is just a myth. It's a business and it's all about making money. A farm may treat its chicken and cows nicely, but it doesn't really mean anything...

I would also appreciate it if someone is willing to correct me if I'm too cynical or pessimistic.

Would agree with this but put it in a different way. At the end of the day picking your firm is about picking the organization you think you could have the most symbiotic relationship with. The firms do have extra perks and lifestyle niceties to offer you (or did during the boom time) and going with a firm that skimps on those makes your relationship with the firm feel more parasitic than symbiotic. Everywhere you work will feel the same on some level, especially in a major market like NYC. You want to search for symbiosis, make sure you can get something beyond just the salary out of the deal, even if they are just small perks that make you feel like your firm cares that you are alive or would notice quickly if you died at your desk.

At virtually every NYC (for example) firm there will be long hours, days where you get yelled at, difficult tasks, "meaningful work/clients," these things will be expected of you/will just come with the territory. BUT, not all firms will seek to compensate you through extras like nice parties, good food, not being cheap on the late-night cars/dinner expenditures, not making you feel like getting a reimbursement is clawing money from Smaug. These "little" things are by no means necessary and of course a privilege, but at the end of the day, they might make the difference between you being okay to live at work (especially as a young lawyer) and you feeling chewed up & spit out (at least for a while).

The advice to remember which firms are cutting young lawyers or being unnecessarily cheap with them is well-founded because it shows that these little things are absent and the relationship is/will be as an associate more parasitic than symbiotic for you. Anyway, that's just how I see it.

Speak for yourself but I work at a V10 and have never been yelled at, nor do I know of anyone in my class who has been yelled at.

To the original question asker, I strongly suggest that if you hear people talk about Partners screaming or yelling as anything more common than a “crazy story that happened last year” kind of thing, run.

Agree with the rest - perks and treatment vary considerably.

I mean your anecdotal is kind of irrelevant when the point is that people should in some ways prepare to be in environments where it is likely if not probable that it will happen at least once. People are under extremely high amounts of stress and have to turn work over quickly and depend on others to be able to do that are also not immune from reacting poorly to that stress.

I'm not saying being yelled at by partners with any amount of consistency is normal per se, but there are a lot of people who rotate in and out of big law. It's extremely unlikely that every person who is hired is meant to be in that kind of environment -- where "meant to" means "capable of handling it gracefully." The people who are actually likely to interact negatively with juniors are midlevels, and maybe even midlevels that don't like the experience of working in biglaw, since midlevels and juniors work most closely together. If you think every stressed-out midlevel is someone who is so desperately trying to be partner that they will never slip up and yell at a junior over something (such that it is, therefore, unreasonable to expect the experience broadly when going into big law) more power to you, but in my opinion, that's like living in an unreasonable human fantasy.

Whether you yourself have never been yelled at is an interesting data point, but it just isn't reasonable to expect that it will never happen to you in that in that kind of stressful, fast-paced environment. I would also like to note the feeling of "being yelled at" is extremely subjective and may differ from person to person. Some people may feel it has happened to them without the literal experience of being shouted at, others may need it to go beyond the pale to feel as though they've been yelled at. So, all in all, it may be more useful to phrase it as "you will occasionally have negative interactions at work that may ruin your day because everyone around you including yourself is stressed out and to not expect and prepare for this in a notoriously stressful enviornment seems unreasonable."

[Ultramar vistas]

My firm deferred with only a measly salary advance, and I'm super bitter. I chose this firm over other, more profitable firms that have not deferred yet (and maybe won't at all) for many reasons, one being the firm's culture and the fact that they seemed to actually care about their attorneys as opposed to seeing them as cogs in a wheel. I was really excited to start at my firm because I loved the people I will be working with, but now I'm dreading working for partners who voted to screw me over.

0Ls/1Ls: look at how firms behaved during this crisis when choosing a firm.

To be clear, deferral is fine/expected. I am bitter because my firm chose to be extremely cheap and give us barely enough money to live off of in the form of a loan, especially when peer firms in my market have been much more generous towards deferred incoming associates. I wouldn't be as upset if the coronavirus didn't make it so difficult to find alternative employment. I hope to find a job after the bar exam, but with the coronavirus pandemic, I'm not sure if I'll find anything that doesn't require exposing myself to the virus (working at a grocery store, etc.).

I'm very sorry for what you're going through.

I didn't believe in "culture" much, and even less now. I would choose a firm strictly based on rankings and figures. For 0Ls/1Ls, this is just my 2 cents and I know almost nothing, but I felt culture / "caring about associates" is just a myth. It's a business and it's all about making money. A farm may treat its chicken and cows nicely, but it doesn't really mean anything...

I would also appreciate it if someone is willing to correct me if I'm too cynical or pessimistic.

Would agree with this but put it in a different way. At the end of the day picking your firm is about picking the organization you think you could have the most symbiotic relationship with. The firms do have extra perks and lifestyle niceties to offer you (or did during the boom time) and going with a firm that skimps on those makes your relationship with the firm feel more parasitic than symbiotic. Everywhere you work will feel the same on some level, especially in a major market like NYC. You want to search for symbiosis, make sure you can get something beyond just the salary out of the deal, even if they are just small perks that make you feel like your firm cares that you are alive or would notice quickly if you died at your desk.

At virtually every NYC (for example) firm there will be long hours, days where you get yelled at, difficult tasks, "meaningful work/clients," these things will be expected of you/will just come with the territory. BUT, not all firms will seek to compensate you through extras like nice parties, good food, not being cheap on the late-night cars/dinner expenditures, not making you feel like getting a reimbursement is clawing money from Smaug. These "little" things are by no means necessary and of course a privilege, but at the end of the day, they might make the difference between you being okay to live at work (especially as a young lawyer) and you feeling chewed up & spit out (at least for a while).

The advice to remember which firms are cutting young lawyers or being unnecessarily cheap with them is well-founded because it shows that these little things are absent and the relationship is/will be as an associate more parasitic than symbiotic for you. Anyway, that's just how I see it.

Speak for yourself but I work at a V10 and have never been yelled at, nor do I know of anyone in my class who has been yelled at.

To the original question asker, I strongly suggest that if you hear people talk about Partners screaming or yelling as anything more common than a “crazy story that happened last year” kind of thing, run.

Agree with the rest - perks and treatment vary considerably.

I mean your anecdotal is kind of irrelevant when the point is that people should in some ways prepare to be in environments where it is likely if not probable that it will happen at least once. People are under extremely high amounts of stress and have to turn work over quickly and depend on others to be able to do that are also not immune from reacting poorly to that stress.

I'm not saying being yelled at by partners with any amount of consistency is normal per se, but there are a lot of people who rotate in and out of big law. It's extremely unlikely that every person who is hired is meant to be in that kind of environment -- where "meant to" means "capable of handling it gracefully." The people who are actually likely to interact negatively with juniors are midlevels, and maybe even midlevels that don't like the experience of working in biglaw, since midlevels and juniors work most closely together. If you think every stressed-out midlevel is someone who is so desperately trying to be partner that they will never slip up and yell at a junior over something (such that it is, therefore, unreasonable to expect the experience broadly when going into big law) more power to you, but in my opinion, that's like living in an unreasonable human fantasy.

Whether you yourself have never been yelled at is an interesting data point, but it just isn't reasonable to expect that it will never happen to you in that in that kind of stressful, fast-paced environment. I would also like to note the feeling of "being yelled at" is extremely subjective and may differ from person to person. Some people may feel it has happened to them without the literal experience of being shouted at, others may need it to go beyond the pale to feel as though they've been yelled at. So, all in all, it may be more useful to phrase it as "you will occasionally have negative interactions at work that may ruin your day because everyone around you including yourself is stressed out and to not expect and prepare for this in a notoriously stressful enviornment seems unreasonable."

I disagree; I think it is wholly reasonable to expect not to be yelled at in a professional work environment.

I feel strongly that our HR department feels the same way.

I think that you should reconsider normalizing behavior that is inappropriate, and beneath adults.

If this happens to you frequently, or you find yourself yelling at those you manage, I think that you should speak to someone (a trusted mentor in the first case, a therapist in the second).

[nls336]

My firm deferred with only a measly salary advance, and I'm super bitter. I chose this firm over other, more profitable firms that have not deferred yet (and maybe won't at all) for many reasons, one being the firm's culture and the fact that they seemed to actually care about their attorneys as opposed to seeing them as cogs in a wheel. I was really excited to start at my firm because I loved the people I will be working with, but now I'm dreading working for partners who voted to screw me over.

0Ls/1Ls: look at how firms behaved during this crisis when choosing a firm.

To be clear, deferral is fine/expected. I am bitter because my firm chose to be extremely cheap and give us barely enough money to live off of in the form of a loan, especially when peer firms in my market have been much more generous towards deferred incoming associates. I wouldn't be as upset if the coronavirus didn't make it so difficult to find alternative employment. I hope to find a job after the bar exam, but with the coronavirus pandemic, I'm not sure if I'll find anything that doesn't require exposing myself to the virus (working at a grocery store, etc.).

I'm very sorry for what you're going through.

I didn't believe in "culture" much, and even less now. I would choose a firm strictly based on rankings and figures. For 0Ls/1Ls, this is just my 2 cents and I know almost nothing, but I felt culture / "caring about associates" is just a myth. It's a business and it's all about making money. A farm may treat its chicken and cows nicely, but it doesn't really mean anything...

I would also appreciate it if someone is willing to correct me if I'm too cynical or pessimistic.

Would agree with this but put it in a different way. At the end of the day picking your firm is about picking the organization you think you could have the most symbiotic relationship with. The firms do have extra perks and lifestyle niceties to offer you (or did during the boom time) and going with a firm that skimps on those makes your relationship with the firm feel more parasitic than symbiotic. Everywhere you work will feel the same on some level, especially in a major market like NYC. You want to search for symbiosis, make sure you can get something beyond just the salary out of the deal, even if they are just small perks that make you feel like your firm cares that you are alive or would notice quickly if you died at your desk.

At virtually every NYC (for example) firm there will be long hours, days where you get yelled at, difficult tasks, "meaningful work/clients," these things will be expected of you/will just come with the territory. BUT, not all firms will seek to compensate you through extras like nice parties, good food, not being cheap on the late-night cars/dinner expenditures, not making you feel like getting a reimbursement is clawing money from Smaug. These "little" things are by no means necessary and of course a privilege, but at the end of the day, they might make the difference between you being okay to live at work (especially as a young lawyer) and you feeling chewed up & spit out (at least for a while).

The advice to remember which firms are cutting young lawyers or being unnecessarily cheap with them is well-founded because it shows that these little things are absent and the relationship is/will be as an associate more parasitic than symbiotic for you. Anyway, that's just how I see it.

Speak for yourself but I work at a V10 and have never been yelled at, nor do I know of anyone in my class who has been yelled at.

To the original question asker, I strongly suggest that if you hear people talk about Partners screaming or yelling as anything more common than a “crazy story that happened last year” kind of thing, run.

Agree with the rest - perks and treatment vary considerably.

I mean your anecdotal is kind of irrelevant when the point is that people should in some ways prepare to be in environments where it is likely if not probable that it will happen at least once. People are under extremely high amounts of stress and have to turn work over quickly and depend on others to be able to do that are also not immune from reacting poorly to that stress.

I'm not saying being yelled at by partners with any amount of consistency is normal per se, but there are a lot of people who rotate in and out of big law. It's extremely unlikely that every person who is hired is meant to be in that kind of environment -- where "meant to" means "capable of handling it gracefully." The people who are actually likely to interact negatively with juniors are midlevels, and maybe even midlevels that don't like the experience of working in biglaw, since midlevels and juniors work most closely together. If you think every stressed-out midlevel is someone who is so desperately trying to be partner that they will never slip up and yell at a junior over something (such that it is, therefore, unreasonable to expect the experience broadly when going into big law) more power to you, but in my opinion, that's like living in an unreasonable human fantasy.

Whether you yourself have never been yelled at is an interesting data point, but it just isn't reasonable to expect that it will never happen to you in that in that kind of stressful, fast-paced environment. I would also like to note the feeling of "being yelled at" is extremely subjective and may differ from person to person. Some people may feel it has happened to them without the literal experience of being shouted at, others may need it to go beyond the pale to feel as though they've been yelled at. So, all in all, it may be more useful to phrase it as "you will occasionally have negative interactions at work that may ruin your day because everyone around you including yourself is stressed out and to not expect and prepare for this in a notoriously stressful enviornment seems unreasonable."

I disagree; I think it is wholly reasonable to expect not to be yelled at in a professional work environment.

I feel strongly that our HR department feels the same way.

I think that you should reconsider normalizing behavior that is inappropriate, and beneath adults.

If this happens to you frequently, or you find yourself yelling at those you manage, I think that you should speak to someone (a trusted mentor in the first case, a therapist in the second).

I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on what human beings are actually like. But, how about we not take this to a personal place with the language about normalizing inappropriate behavior and the condescension about seeing a therapist, yeah? Clearly you and I just see what is within the norm of human behavior differently and that's not necessarily a bad thing. I have no problem not yelling at people that I manage because I don't manage anyone so please keep your moralistic judgments to yourself, thanks.

I have, however, been managed across my life in the many shitty and not-so shitty jobs, including by midlevels. I can say unequivocally people not knowing how to manage stress well and being shitty is par for the course with any job, in any industry, and in all walks of life. Better to teach people how to cope with difficult environments, learn coping mechanisms for working with people with whom they don't get along, and expect to have to handle conflict delicately and respectfully. You don't have to take literally everything personally, and tattling on people to HR (who are your senior) over every non-descript stressed-induced event of disagreement (just to prevent normalizing otherwise normal, albeit not positive or great, human behavior which you could shrug off in the alternative) is honestly impractical advice. That sounds like a great way to make sure nobody will want to work with you.

[Ultramar vistas]

My firm deferred with only a measly salary advance, and I'm super bitter. I chose this firm over other, more profitable firms that have not deferred yet (and maybe won't at all) for many reasons, one being the firm's culture and the fact that they seemed to actually care about their attorneys as opposed to seeing them as cogs in a wheel. I was really excited to start at my firm because I loved the people I will be working with, but now I'm dreading working for partners who voted to screw me over.

0Ls/1Ls: look at how firms behaved during this crisis when choosing a firm.

To be clear, deferral is fine/expected. I am bitter because my firm chose to be extremely cheap and give us barely enough money to live off of in the form of a loan, especially when peer firms in my market have been much more generous towards deferred incoming associates. I wouldn't be as upset if the coronavirus didn't make it so difficult to find alternative employment. I hope to find a job after the bar exam, but with the coronavirus pandemic, I'm not sure if I'll find anything that doesn't require exposing myself to the virus (working at a grocery store, etc.).

I'm very sorry for what you're going through.

I didn't believe in "culture" much, and even less now. I would choose a firm strictly based on rankings and figures. For 0Ls/1Ls, this is just my 2 cents and I know almost nothing, but I felt culture / "caring about associates" is just a myth. It's a business and it's all about making money. A farm may treat its chicken and cows nicely, but it doesn't really mean anything...

I would also appreciate it if someone is willing to correct me if I'm too cynical or pessimistic.

Would agree with this but put it in a different way. At the end of the day picking your firm is about picking the organization you think you could have the most symbiotic relationship with. The firms do have extra perks and lifestyle niceties to offer you (or did during the boom time) and going with a firm that skimps on those makes your relationship with the firm feel more parasitic than symbiotic. Everywhere you work will feel the same on some level, especially in a major market like NYC. You want to search for symbiosis, make sure you can get something beyond just the salary out of the deal, even if they are just small perks that make you feel like your firm cares that you are alive or would notice quickly if you died at your desk.

At virtually every NYC (for example) firm there will be long hours, days where you get yelled at, difficult tasks, "meaningful work/clients," these things will be expected of you/will just come with the territory. BUT, not all firms will seek to compensate you through extras like nice parties, good food, not being cheap on the late-night cars/dinner expenditures, not making you feel like getting a reimbursement is clawing money from Smaug. These "little" things are by no means necessary and of course a privilege, but at the end of the day, they might make the difference between you being okay to live at work (especially as a young lawyer) and you feeling chewed up & spit out (at least for a while).

The advice to remember which firms are cutting young lawyers or being unnecessarily cheap with them is well-founded because it shows that these little things are absent and the relationship is/will be as an associate more parasitic than symbiotic for you. Anyway, that's just how I see it.

Speak for yourself but I work at a V10 and have never been yelled at, nor do I know of anyone in my class who has been yelled at.

To the original question asker, I strongly suggest that if you hear people talk about Partners screaming or yelling as anything more common than a “crazy story that happened last year” kind of thing, run.

Agree with the rest - perks and treatment vary considerably.

I mean your anecdotal is kind of irrelevant when the point is that people should in some ways prepare to be in environments where it is likely if not probable that it will happen at least once. People are under extremely high amounts of stress and have to turn work over quickly and depend on others to be able to do that are also not immune from reacting poorly to that stress.

I'm not saying being yelled at by partners with any amount of consistency is normal per se, but there are a lot of people who rotate in and out of big law. It's extremely unlikely that every person who is hired is meant to be in that kind of environment -- where "meant to" means "capable of handling it gracefully." The people who are actually likely to interact negatively with juniors are midlevels, and maybe even midlevels that don't like the experience of working in biglaw, since midlevels and juniors work most closely together. If you think every stressed-out midlevel is someone who is so desperately trying to be partner that they will never slip up and yell at a junior over something (such that it is, therefore, unreasonable to expect the experience broadly when going into big law) more power to you, but in my opinion, that's like living in an unreasonable human fantasy.

Whether you yourself have never been yelled at is an interesting data point, but it just isn't reasonable to expect that it will never happen to you in that in that kind of stressful, fast-paced environment. I would also like to note the feeling of "being yelled at" is extremely subjective and may differ from person to person. Some people may feel it has happened to them without the literal experience of being shouted at, others may need it to go beyond the pale to feel as though they've been yelled at. So, all in all, it may be more useful to phrase it as "you will occasionally have negative interactions at work that may ruin your day because everyone around you including yourself is stressed out and to not expect and prepare for this in a notoriously stressful enviornment seems unreasonable."

I disagree; I think it is wholly reasonable to expect not to be yelled at in a professional work environment.

I feel strongly that our HR department feels the same way.

I think that you should reconsider normalizing behavior that is inappropriate, and beneath adults.

If this happens to you frequently, or you find yourself yelling at those you manage, I think that you should speak to someone (a trusted mentor in the first case, a therapist in the second).

I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on what human beings are actually like. But, how about we not take this to a personal place with the language about normalizing inappropriate behavior and the condescension about seeing a therapist, yeah? Clearly you and I just see what is within the norm of human behavior differently and that's not necessarily a bad thing. I have no problem not yelling at people that I manage because I don't manage anyone so please keep your moralistic judgments to yourself, thanks.

I have, however, been managed across my life in the many shitty and not-so shitty jobs, including by midlevels. I can say unequivocally people not knowing how to manage stress well and being shitty is par for the course with any job, in any industry, and in all walks of life. Better to teach people how to cope with difficult environments, learn coping mechanisms for working with people with whom they don't get along, and expect to have to handle conflict delicately and respectfully. You don't have to take literally everything personally, and tattling on people to HR (who are your senior) over every non-descript stressed-induced event of disagreement (just to prevent normalizing otherwise normal, albeit not positive or great, human behavior which you could shrug off in the alternative) is honestly impractical advice. That sounds like a great way to make sure nobody will want to work with you.

I don’t think what I said is unnecessarily personal (you are the one who was normalizing people yelling at each other in a professional environment - who else should I direct that comment at?) or condescending (I sincerely think that some type of counseling would be an appropriate form of self care for someone who finds themselves frequently yelling at others in the workplace - if you find that condescending or a moralistic judgment, I suggest you reevaluate how you view therapy).

I certainly would not recommend going to HR over non-descript, stress-induced disagreement. What I said was that you should talk to a “trusted mentor” if you find yourself “frequently being yelled at”. Do you think that this is bad advice?

As to whether talking to HR is “tattling” I suppose that depends on whether you trust your HR department as a trustworthy entity. I think ours are pretty good, so if I had a consistent issue with conduct that I found demeaning or unnecessary (which would probably include frequent yelling) I would consider them as a place to go for advice.

I think that phrasing that as “tattling” is also unhealthy - in our recent history, much unpleasant behavior has been shielded from consequences by that attitude.

[Necho2]

For the love of god folks, exercise some internet etiquette and stop mass-quoting six long-ass posts when you respond...

[Deserving Porcupine]

For the love of god folks, exercise some internet etiquette and stop mass-quoting six long-ass posts when you respond...

This. Also, quit thread jacking. Are you incoming associates? Did you get deferred? If so, tell us about it! If not, well...

[Anonymous User]

Debevoise is starting remotely on a date close to the original start date.