Tracking COVID-19's effect on V100 associate pay/layoffs Forum

[parkslope]

Boies Schiller doesn't have offices for associates???

I believe that as part of their move to Hudson Yards, they went with a bullpen workspace rather than individual or shared offices.

Yikes. For all associates? Imagine being paid $300k and having a cubicle.

[Anonymous User]

Boies Schiller doesn't have offices for associates???

I believe that as part of their move to Hudson Yards, they went with a bullpen workspace rather than individual or shared offices.

Yikes. For all associates? Imagine being paid $300k and having a cubicle.

It's not even cubicles. It's worse: what the firm calls "pods" (corporate speak) of 4 associates. Basically imagine a U shape, with two desks on each side, and the bottom being a window. So basically 4 associates sitting in close quarters. There are partner offices on the top of the U (all glass windows). Tbh seems miserable. But hey, you get standing desks! And there are more shared spaces—nevermind those are largely useless for our practice. And there is a barista and coffee bar in the office (ok fine, that's pretty good).

[parkslope]

Boies Schiller doesn't have offices for associates???

I believe that as part of their move to Hudson Yards, they went with a bullpen workspace rather than individual or shared offices.

Yikes. For all associates? Imagine being paid $300k and having a cubicle.

It's not even cubicles. It's worse: what the firm calls "pods" (corporate speak) of 4 associates. Basically imagine a U shape, with two desks on each side, and the bottom being a window. So basically 4 associates sitting in close quarters. There are partner offices on the top of the U (all glass windows). Tbh seems miserable. But hey, you get standing desks! And there are more shared spaces—nevermind those are largely useless for our practice. And there is a barista and coffee bar in the office (ok fine, that's pretty good).

I guess it might be sort of tolerable if people took calls away from their desks (a big assumption), but it is odd that law firms push false messaging about "collaboration" and "teamwork" when 90% of what associates do is sit at their desks and do stuff in Word, e-mail and the Internet. Making charts, reviewing documents and writing briefs is not an inherently collaborative activity at all.

[Anon115523]

Boies Schiller doesn't have offices for associates???

I believe that as part of their move to Hudson Yards, they went with a bullpen workspace rather than individual or shared offices.

Yikes. For all associates? Imagine being paid $300k and having a cubicle.

It's not even cubicles. It's worse: what the firm calls "pods" (corporate speak) of 4 associates. Basically imagine a U shape, with two desks on each side, and the bottom being a window. So basically 4 associates sitting in close quarters. There are partner offices on the top of the U (all glass windows). Tbh seems miserable. But hey, you get standing desks! And there are more shared spaces—nevermind those are largely useless for our practice. And there is a barista and coffee bar in the office (ok fine, that's pretty good).

I guess it might be sort of tolerable if people took calls away from their desks (a big assumption), but it is odd that law firms push false messaging about "collaboration" and "teamwork" when 90% of what associates do is sit at their desks and do stuff in Word, e-mail and the Internet. Making charts, reviewing documents and writing briefs is not an inherently collaborative activity at all.

Totally agree. I was listening to a podcast recently where they talked about law firms wanting to cater more to millennials and offer “collaborative” workspaces where “associates can discuss ideas.” This is truly the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. This isn’t Silicon Valley. We aren’t software engineers. We aren’t building shit. Just give me my own door so I can bang out your doc review and we can hit the conference room when inspiration to collaborate strikes.

[Anonymous User]

Boies Schiller doesn't have offices for associates???

I believe that as part of their move to Hudson Yards, they went with a bullpen workspace rather than individual or shared offices.

Yikes. For all associates? Imagine being paid $300k and having a cubicle.

It's not even cubicles. It's worse: what the firm calls "pods" (corporate speak) of 4 associates. Basically imagine a U shape, with two desks on each side, and the bottom being a window. So basically 4 associates sitting in close quarters. There are partner offices on the top of the U (all glass windows). Tbh seems miserable. But hey, you get standing desks! And there are more shared spaces—nevermind those are largely useless for our practice. And there is a barista and coffee bar in the office (ok fine, that's pretty good).

I guess it might be sort of tolerable if people took calls away from their desks (a big assumption), but it is odd that law firms push false messaging about "collaboration" and "teamwork" when 90% of what associates do is sit at their desks and do stuff in Word, e-mail and the Internet. Making charts, reviewing documents and writing briefs is not an inherently collaborative activity at all.

Totally agree. I was listening to a podcast recently where they talked about law firms wanting to cater more to millennials and offer “collaborative” workspaces where “associates can discuss ideas.” This is truly the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. This isn’t Silicon Valley. We aren’t software engineers. We aren’t building shit. Just give me my own door so I can bang out your doc review and we can hit the conference room when inspiration to collaborate strikes.

I agree, it's just a fiction to spin cost-cutting on real estate to squeeze more associates into a smaller space. None of these podcasts or articles talking about new office setups actually ask any millennials, much less ones who could answer honestly rather than avoiding upsetting their employers. Millennials, much like anyone else, would absolutely prefer to have offices rather than being crammed "collaborative workspaces" in which some guy is talking on a call five feet from your face. Who wouldn't want to have your own space?

Especially in a high-pressure and stressful industry where, yeah, you want to close your door sometimes to be alone. I am sure that software engineers would prefer having offices too, but the "open office" is just a norm in that industry, while it is not in biglaw (yet).

It might be true that millennials want more "collaborative" spaces, but not at the EXPENSE of their own workspaces. More conference rooms and lounges are great! But some employers have taken the collaborative idea to mean that millennials are okay giving up their own offices in order to have more conference rooms, which is not the same thing at all.

EDIT: accidential anon.

[LBJ's Hair]

^this. It's a cost thing.

Feel for the BSF associates. I would be apoplectic.

[Anonymous User]

Boies Schiller doesn't have offices for associates???

I believe that as part of their move to Hudson Yards, they went with a bullpen workspace rather than individual or shared offices.

Yikes. For all associates? Imagine being paid $300k and having a cubicle.

It's not even cubicles. It's worse: what the firm calls "pods" (corporate speak) of 4 associates. Basically imagine a U shape, with two desks on each side, and the bottom being a window. So basically 4 associates sitting in close quarters. There are partner offices on the top of the U (all glass windows). Tbh seems miserable. But hey, you get standing desks! And there are more shared spaces—nevermind those are largely useless for our practice. And there is a barista and coffee bar in the office (ok fine, that's pretty good).

I guess it might be sort of tolerable if people took calls away from their desks (a big assumption), but it is odd that law firms push false messaging about "collaboration" and "teamwork" when 90% of what associates do is sit at their desks and do stuff in Word, e-mail and the Internet. Making charts, reviewing documents and writing briefs is not an inherently collaborative activity at all.

Totally agree. I was listening to a podcast recently where they talked about law firms wanting to cater more to millennials and offer “collaborative” workspaces where “associates can discuss ideas.” This is truly the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. This isn’t Silicon Valley. We aren’t software engineers. We aren’t building shit. Just give me my own door so I can bang out your doc review and we can hit the conference room when inspiration to collaborate strikes.

I agree, it's just a fiction to spin cost-cutting on real estate to squeeze more associates into a smaller space. None of these podcasts or articles talking about new office setups actually ask any millennials, much less ones who could answer honestly rather than avoiding upsetting their employers. Millennials, much like anyone else, would absolutely prefer to have offices rather than being crammed "collaborative workspaces" in which some guy is talking on a call five feet from your face. Who wouldn't want to have your own space?

Especially in a high-pressure and stressful industry where, yeah, you want to close your door sometimes to be alone. I am sure that software engineers would prefer having offices too, but the "open office" is just a norm in that industry, while it is not in biglaw (yet).

It might be true that millennials want more "collaborative" spaces, but not at the EXPENSE of their own workspaces. More conference rooms and lounges are great! But some employers have taken the collaborative idea to mean that millennials are okay giving up their own offices in order to have more conference rooms, which is not the same thing at all.

EDIT: accidential anon.

At my old firm, they sent out a survey from the office design ppl that was so slanted in terms of pushing communal work space (for non partners) it was hilarious. It was like, would you prefer to have more comfortable spaces to discuss ideas with your colleagues? Yes or no?

All the associates saw through it. Honestly, I think the company convinced the older partners that it's what the juniors wanted, and then when they tried to confirm that with us, the feedback was like, fuck off.

It would be great to have a lot of open space to chat, snack, and sip coffee. But most of law is done on your own, and the collaboration already happens quite a bit by popping into an office or dialing the phone. Perhaps sitting together for doc review is useful, but also, if everyone else is carrying on in a room and you're trying to focus, it's infuriating.

Anon bc ppl may recognize the survey stuff and put it together.

[Anonymous User]

I believe that as part of their move to Hudson Yards, they went with a bullpen workspace rather than individual or shared offices.

Yikes. For all associates? Imagine being paid $300k and having a cubicle.

It's not even cubicles. It's worse: what the firm calls "pods" (corporate speak) of 4 associates. Basically imagine a U shape, with two desks on each side, and the bottom being a window. So basically 4 associates sitting in close quarters. There are partner offices on the top of the U (all glass windows). Tbh seems miserable. But hey, you get standing desks! And there are more shared spaces—nevermind those are largely useless for our practice. And there is a barista and coffee bar in the office (ok fine, that's pretty good).

I guess it might be sort of tolerable if people took calls away from their desks (a big assumption), but it is odd that law firms push false messaging about "collaboration" and "teamwork" when 90% of what associates do is sit at their desks and do stuff in Word, e-mail and the Internet. Making charts, reviewing documents and writing briefs is not an inherently collaborative activity at all.

Totally agree. I was listening to a podcast recently where they talked about law firms wanting to cater more to millennials and offer “collaborative” workspaces where “associates can discuss ideas.” This is truly the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. This isn’t Silicon Valley. We aren’t software engineers. We aren’t building shit. Just give me my own door so I can bang out your doc review and we can hit the conference room when inspiration to collaborate strikes.

I agree, it's just a fiction to spin cost-cutting on real estate to squeeze more associates into a smaller space. None of these podcasts or articles talking about new office setups actually ask any millennials, much less ones who could answer honestly rather than avoiding upsetting their employers. Millennials, much like anyone else, would absolutely prefer to have offices rather than being crammed "collaborative workspaces" in which some guy is talking on a call five feet from your face. Who wouldn't want to have your own space?

Especially in a high-pressure and stressful industry where, yeah, you want to close your door sometimes to be alone. I am sure that software engineers would prefer having offices too, but the "open office" is just a norm in that industry, while it is not in biglaw (yet).

It might be true that millennials want more "collaborative" spaces, but not at the EXPENSE of their own workspaces. More conference rooms and lounges are great! But some employers have taken the collaborative idea to mean that millennials are okay giving up their own offices in order to have more conference rooms, which is not the same thing at all.

EDIT: accidential anon.

At my old firm, they sent out a survey from the office design ppl that was so slanted in terms of pushing communal work space (for non partners) it was hilarious. It was like, would you prefer to have more comfortable spaces to discuss ideas with your colleagues? Yes or no?

All the associates saw through it. Honestly, I think the company convinced the older partners that it's what the juniors wanted, and then when they tried to confirm that with us, the feedback was like, fuck off.

It would be great to have a lot of open space to chat, snack, and sip coffee. But most of law is done on your own, and the collaboration already happens quite a bit by popping into an office or dialing the phone. Perhaps sitting together for doc review is useful, but also, if everyone else is carrying on in a room and you're trying to focus, it's infuriating.

Anon bc ppl may recognize the survey stuff and put it together.

What makes this all the worse is that at BSF, the new communal office space was put together by Jonathan Schiller's son's firm. The associates again and again told leadership they did not want to give up personal offices. Sure, it seems nice for Schiller's son to be able to give interview to glamorous architectural magazines about how he's designed a cutting-edge law firm office where lawyers work collaboratively, but that is NOT the reality of how 90% of legal work is actually done. Either leadership was clueless about how associates actually do their day-to-day work, or they wanted to cut costs and award fees to family. Not a good look either way.

[Anonymous User]

I believe that as part of their move to Hudson Yards, they went with a bullpen workspace rather than individual or shared offices.

Yikes. For all associates? Imagine being paid $300k and having a cubicle.

It's not even cubicles. It's worse: what the firm calls "pods" (corporate speak) of 4 associates. Basically imagine a U shape, with two desks on each side, and the bottom being a window. So basically 4 associates sitting in close quarters. There are partner offices on the top of the U (all glass windows). Tbh seems miserable. But hey, you get standing desks! And there are more shared spaces—nevermind those are largely useless for our practice. And there is a barista and coffee bar in the office (ok fine, that's pretty good).

I guess it might be sort of tolerable if people took calls away from their desks (a big assumption), but it is odd that law firms push false messaging about "collaboration" and "teamwork" when 90% of what associates do is sit at their desks and do stuff in Word, e-mail and the Internet. Making charts, reviewing documents and writing briefs is not an inherently collaborative activity at all.

Totally agree. I was listening to a podcast recently where they talked about law firms wanting to cater more to millennials and offer “collaborative” workspaces where “associates can discuss ideas.” This is truly the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. This isn’t Silicon Valley. We aren’t software engineers. We aren’t building shit. Just give me my own door so I can bang out your doc review and we can hit the conference room when inspiration to collaborate strikes.

I agree, it's just a fiction to spin cost-cutting on real estate to squeeze more associates into a smaller space. None of these podcasts or articles talking about new office setups actually ask any millennials, much less ones who could answer honestly rather than avoiding upsetting their employers. Millennials, much like anyone else, would absolutely prefer to have offices rather than being crammed "collaborative workspaces" in which some guy is talking on a call five feet from your face. Who wouldn't want to have your own space?

Especially in a high-pressure and stressful industry where, yeah, you want to close your door sometimes to be alone. I am sure that software engineers would prefer having offices too, but the "open office" is just a norm in that industry, while it is not in biglaw (yet).

It might be true that millennials want more "collaborative" spaces, but not at the EXPENSE of their own workspaces. More conference rooms and lounges are great! But some employers have taken the collaborative idea to mean that millennials are okay giving up their own offices in order to have more conference rooms, which is not the same thing at all.

EDIT: accidential anon.

At my old firm, they sent out a survey from the office design ppl that was so slanted in terms of pushing communal work space (for non partners) it was hilarious. It was like, would you prefer to have more comfortable spaces to discuss ideas with your colleagues? Yes or no?

All the associates saw through it. Honestly, I think the company convinced the older partners that it's what the juniors wanted, and then when they tried to confirm that with us, the feedback was like, fuck off.

It would be great to have a lot of open space to chat, snack, and sip coffee. But most of law is done on your own, and the collaboration already happens quite a bit by popping into an office or dialing the phone. Perhaps sitting together for doc review is useful, but also, if everyone else is carrying on in a room and you're trying to focus, it's infuriating.

Anon bc ppl may recognize the survey stuff and put it together.

At least they bothered to survey you. At my office (which is scheduled to move next year), they just appointed some "consultants" to study how the space was used. Surprise, surprise, they found people weren't physically in their offices all the time, so therefore offices were unnecessary. From day, one, it was clear that the consultants were only hired to justify the decision that had already been made to eliminate private offices. Of course, the planned open office gets described with a litany of euphemisms such as "our new neighborhood concept." Recently, some folks expressed concerns about open office environments in light of COVID. Their response was "the consultants have spoken!"

If they could just own up and call it a cost-cutting strategy, I wouldn't like it, but I could accept it as a tradeoff over other potential cuts. Trying to frame it as what the "millenials" want is absurd. I've yet to talk to any millennial co-workers who are happy about it. The disingenuousness drives me nuts.

[Ultramar vistas]

The day my firm moves to an open office concept is the day I move to a new firm.

[burritotaco]

The day my firm moves to an open office concept is the day I move to a new firm.

Seriously. I would take a significant paycut to avoid an open office plan. It would make a miserable job dramatically more miserable.

[Wild Card]

Reed Smith (V61):

The previously announced 15% salary cuts for associates will continue until August, and from August to December it will increase to 20%.

https://abovethelaw.com/2020/06/biglaw- ... rity-cuts/

[Anonymous User]

MBS banking guy from pages ago.

Colleagues are being let go. I think even my director is potentially on the block. We have booked basically zero in new revenues for about six weeks and not much above zero for 2-4 weeks before that. They warned layoffs are coming but really nobody knows how many they want to lay-off.

Lots and lots of talks about PE buying distressed assets and we will get business rolling quickly but nothing has materialized and the management has shifted to talking about ways to cut staff and openly discussing “if” they do decide to accelerate cutting staff, how much they need to give to make the breakups not PR nightmares.

[nealric]

The day my firm moves to an open office concept is the day I move to a new firm.

Seriously. I would take a significant paycut to avoid an open office plan. It would make a miserable job dramatically more miserable.

In many ways, the open office plan is a false economy. Employers think they are getting a $10k/employee savings. But what they don't realize is that employees think of their offices as part of their compensation. They would get the same result with a pay cut, and with less disruption.

[Anonymous User]

The day my firm moves to an open office concept is the day I move to a new firm.

Seriously. I would take a significant paycut to avoid an open office plan. It would make a miserable job dramatically more miserable.

In many ways, the open office plan is a false economy. Employers think they are getting a $10k/employee savings. But what they don't realize is that employees think of their offices as part of their compensation. They would get the same result with a pay cut, and with less disruption.

100! I also suffer from horrible ADD. I never got extra time on exams or the LSAT (always seemed unethical to give someone extra time on an exam when we bill clients by the hour - who would want a lawyer who needed more time to get the same results on a test?) but I do need to be in a completely quiet environment to get work done. My efficiency/work quality suffers so dramatically in busy spaces that I would gladly take a pay cut to have my own office - I just can't meet my full potential otherwise.

[Anonymous User]

MBS banking guy from pages ago.

Colleagues are being let go. I think even my director is potentially on the block. We have booked basically zero in new revenues for about six weeks and not much above zero for 2-4 weeks before that. They warned layoffs are coming but really nobody knows how many they want to lay-off.

Lots and lots of talks about PE buying distressed assets and we will get business rolling quickly but nothing has materialized and the management has shifted to talking about ways to cut staff and openly discussing “if” they do decide to accelerate cutting staff, how much they need to give to make the breakups not PR nightmares.

When you say MBS guy? Do you mean mortgage backed securities? You're a real estate lawyer?

[Anonymous User]

V10 corporate associate, just got news of my stealthing today. I can't say it was unexpected, work has been extremely slow since covid hit.

[Anonymous User]

V10 corporate associate, just got news of my stealthing today. I can't say it was unexpected, work has been extremely slow since covid hit.

Sorry to hear that. How slow in terms of monthly billables? Are you the only one?

[tbp140]

V10 corporate associate, just got news of my stealthing today. I can't say it was unexpected, work has been extremely slow since covid hit.

Did they try to disguise it as poor performance?

[Anonymous User]

V10 corporate associate, just got news of my stealthing today. I can't say it was unexpected, work has been extremely slow since covid hit.

Did they try to disguise it as poor performance?

Yes, but that didn't bother me honestly. The two partners didn't go into any real detail on it, and looked embarassed about the whole thing (zoom call). Everyone knows the covid elephant in the room, and that the group has been on life support for a few months now. I know of at least one other in my group who got the same talk, but I suspect there are several more. They were actually quite nice about it all things considered, and I understand their position. Luckily I've got enough tucked away to be fine for a while, plus three months severance.

[Yugihoe]

V10 corporate associate, just got news of my stealthing today. I can't say it was unexpected, work has been extremely slow since covid hit.

Sorry to hear. Did you get any severance? Have heard from 3 months to no severance, so sounds like it varies widely by firm.

[Ultramar vistas]

V10 corporate associate, just got news of my stealthing today. I can't say it was unexpected, work has been extremely slow since covid hit.

Sorry to hear. Did you get any severance? Have heard from 3 months to no severance, so sounds like it varies widely by firm.

Let’s hope they aren’t laying people off for poor attention to detail and/or reading comprehension!

Jk but it says in his/her post they got 3 months severance.

[esther0123]

V10 corporate associate, just got news of my stealthing today. I can't say it was unexpected, work has been extremely slow since covid hit.

Did they try to disguise it as poor performance?

Yes, but that didn't bother me honestly. The two partners didn't go into any real detail on it, and looked embarassed about the whole thing (zoom call). Everyone knows the covid elephant in the room, and that the group has been on life support for a few months now. I know of at least one other in my group who got the same talk, but I suspect there are several more. They were actually quite nice about it all things considered, and I understand their position. Luckily I've got enough tucked away to be fine for a while, plus three months severance.

I'm very sorry to hear that. Do you mind letting us know what year level these associates who were told are at? (junior/midl/senior)

[Anonymous User]

V10 corporate associate, just got news of my stealthing today. I can't say it was unexpected, work has been extremely slow since covid hit.

Did they try to disguise it as poor performance?

Yes, but that didn't bother me honestly. The two partners didn't go into any real detail on it, and looked embarassed about the whole thing (zoom call). Everyone knows the covid elephant in the room, and that the group has been on life support for a few months now. I know of at least one other in my group who got the same talk, but I suspect there are several more. They were actually quite nice about it all things considered, and I understand their position. Luckily I've got enough tucked away to be fine for a while, plus three months severance.

I'm very sorry to hear that. Do you mind letting us know what year level these associates who were told are at? (junior/midl/senior)

Funemployed corporate associate here. I now know of two others, in addition to myself. Juniors and midlevels.

[Anonymous User]

on stealth layoffs, i know firsthand that this is happening allready including at firms that announced they wont be cutting salaries, furlowing etc, but am/was at a non-vault 100 (amlaw 200).

heard secondhand about morisson and forestor doing this in the past month.

any1 else?

How can you have firsthand information about multiple firms?

confirm some mofo stealthing