110 hour week Forum

[DELG]

yeah i don't particularly want more money

[dixiecupdrinking]

More money would incentivize me to stay in the job a bit longer than I might otherwise, so it would be a success in that sense, but it probably wouldn't make me any more satisfied. Stronger golden handcuffs, if you will.

[wildhaggis]

More money only helps to the extent that it gets you the fuck out sooner. An extra dollar (or hundred) doesn't equal an extra unit of misery you're willing to swallow, so to speak, or an extra tenth of an hour away from my friends or family. This almost implies that some amount of compensation could get me to work 3000 hours per year indefinitely, with satisfaction, so long as I was compensated such as I felt was necessary for that sort of input. I imagine this is not true for most people (go ahead, tell me I'm wrong, I guess). At the risk of sounding banal, there are some things in life that are actually "priceless" for most people, literally speaking.

As others have already posted, compensation as it presently exists in the biglaw model is a hygiene factor. They're giving you a sufficiently high enough number to keep you comfortable and complacent so you shut your mouth and do what needs to get done whenever that needs to happen. If they were actually compensating you for the amount you contribute or generate, either base salary would be computed in a considerably different fashion, or bonuses would not work the way they currently do.

[dudley12]

pay your debt and leave

[Anonymous User]

Extra money wouldn't make it any more bearable. As someone said, it would just shorten the time frame in which you have to be there, since you can pay debt off slightly faster if more pay. Here is why more money makes it no less satisfying or bearable. I can't just throw money at my constant anxiety, panic attacks, and increasing depression to make them all go away. I can't buy back time lost with my family. Additional cash doesn't make me less fatigued, lethargic, and physically broken down. No amount of money fixes those issues. Again, the extra cash merely serves to shorten the sentence.

[BiglawAssociate]

Extra money wouldn't make it any more bearable. As someone said, it would just shorten the time frame in which you have to be there, since you can pay debt off slightly faster if more pay. Here is why more money makes it no less satisfying or bearable. I can't just throw money at my constant anxiety, panic attacks, and increasing depression to make them all go away. I can't buy back time lost with my family. Additional cash doesn't make me less fatigued, lethargic, and physically broken down. No amount of money fixes those issues. Again, the extra cash merely serves to shorten the sentence.

Um, thought about going to a shrink?

[Anonymous User]

More flexibility and autonomy. More appreciation and recognition. More opportunity and personal reward. I think the structure of a big firm can make it difficult to systematize and guarantee those incentives, but to their credit, I think a lot of firms and people do try to create them, or at least give them lip service. And it is not like it is only law firms that fail to provide meaningful incentives.

So as a senior associate...I can tell you that all these things do come with time. The junior years were miserable. The senior years are a lot better. I think even the early partner years (for those lucky enough to see them) are better still, with increasingly more opportunities, interesting work, reward, and credit.

The issue is that, from what I've seen, the hours don't get remarkably better. I don't generally bill 110 hours a week, but am above a 2700 hour pace so far this year. Last year was similar. And those hours take their toll, no matter how much you like the work, your colleagues, the firm, the money. I like it all, I'm happy at work...and the hours are still bringing me to the point of sheer exhaustion. I'd like to think it gets better, but the partners whom I most look up to work as much as I do (although a lower percentage of their work is billable and a higher percentage is business generation.)

[Johann]

Jesus Christ that's sadder than the 110 hour week. Why are you steadily billing 2700/year? This profession baffles me.

[Anonymous User]

Extra money wouldn't make it any more bearable. As someone said, it would just shorten the time frame in which you have to be there, since you can pay debt off slightly faster if more pay. Here is why more money makes it no less satisfying or bearable. I can't just throw money at my constant anxiety, panic attacks, and increasing depression to make them all go away. I can't buy back time lost with my family. Additional cash doesn't make me less fatigued, lethargic, and physically broken down. No amount of money fixes those issues. Again, the extra cash merely serves to shorten the sentence.

Um, thought about going to a shrink?

Yes, I actually just recently started going. But her advice was essentially that I have to draw more boundaries and put some blinders on for "me time". So its not too far from what my plan was (i.e. do good work, be available, etc. but no reason to grind to the bone and bill way above the hours requirement, since I have no intention of being here long term anyway).

[sinfiery]

Anyone know of people who have been fired for billing the minimum for a bonus +/- 100 before year 5?

[Anonymous User]

Jesus Christ that's sadder than the 110 hour week. Why are you steadily billing 2700/year? This profession baffles me.

Makes it that much easier for me to say that I'm just going to do my time, bill reasonable number of hours without taking it to the extreme, pay off my loans, and then go do something I would enjoy far more. Its watching partners and senior associates that make me realize that there is no light at the end of the tunnel on this path.

[Desert Fox]

best case you peacefully die at the hands of a fake gay hooker in a nice hotel room.

[El Pollito]

best case you peacefully die at the hands of a fake gay hooker in a nice hotel room.

[MKC]

yeah i don't particularly want more money

Submitted as evidence in pay gap argument.

[84651846190]

Extra money wouldn't make it any more bearable. As someone said, it would just shorten the time frame in which you have to be there, since you can pay debt off slightly faster if more pay. Here is why more money makes it no less satisfying or bearable. I can't just throw money at my constant anxiety, panic attacks, and increasing depression to make them all go away. I can't buy back time lost with my family. Additional cash doesn't make me less fatigued, lethargic, and physically broken down. No amount of money fixes those issues. Again, the extra cash merely serves to shorten the sentence.

Um, thought about going to a shrink?

That's not really going to do anything about the underlying causes.

[Anonymous User]

Extra money wouldn't make it any more bearable. As someone said, it would just shorten the time frame in which you have to be there, since you can pay debt off slightly faster if more pay. Here is why more money makes it no less satisfying or bearable. I can't just throw money at my constant anxiety, panic attacks, and increasing depression to make them all go away. I can't buy back time lost with my family. Additional cash doesn't make me less fatigued, lethargic, and physically broken down. No amount of money fixes those issues. Again, the extra cash merely serves to shorten the sentence.

Um, thought about going to a shrink?

That's not really going to do anything about the underlying causes.

After meeting with her a few times, its pretty clear that she isn't recommending anything I couldn't have guessed myself. Said that letting work bleed into any and all aspects of my personal life is slowly chipping away at my mental health. This is why I simply have to draw more boundaries. Again, thats not to say I wouldn't drop everything and work whatever hours necessary in case of an emergency at work, but its just not worth it to grind out 230 hour months over and over just for the sake of saying that I grind out 230 hour months regularly.

[AreJay711]

After meeting with her a few times, its pretty clear that she isn't recommending anything I couldn't have guessed myself. Said that letting work bleed into any and all aspects of my personal life is slowly chipping away at my mental health. This is why I simply have to draw more boundaries. Again, thats not to say I wouldn't drop everything and work whatever hours necessary in case of an emergency at work, but its just not worth it to grind out 230 hour months over and over just for the sake of saying that I grind out 230 hour months regularly.

Hence the reason lawyers become alcoholics. Try to avoid that.

[Anonymous User]

After meeting with her a few times, its pretty clear that she isn't recommending anything I couldn't have guessed myself. Said that letting work bleed into any and all aspects of my personal life is slowly chipping away at my mental health. This is why I simply have to draw more boundaries. Again, thats not to say I wouldn't drop everything and work whatever hours necessary in case of an emergency at work, but its just not worth it to grind out 230 hour months over and over just for the sake of saying that I grind out 230 hour months regularly.

Hence the reason lawyers become alcoholics. Try to avoid that.

While I was more than a bit embarrassed to admit to my loved ones that an easygoing and happy person like me is seeking out therapy, I am glad that I'm addressing this problem now before it gets out of hand. I think I just needed the perspective on things, and to sort of let things go a bit more. I'm the neurotic and controlling type (as so many lawyers are), so its hard for me to say "I'm just going to go in, do my work well, be available as necessary, and then go home and relax, and enjoy my weekends unless there is an emergency that comes up". But given that I have no intention of doing this for more than a few more years at most, I don't see the point of approaching it differently.

[Anonymous User]

After meeting with her a few times, its pretty clear that she isn't recommending anything I couldn't have guessed myself. Said that letting work bleed into any and all aspects of my personal life is slowly chipping away at my mental health. This is why I simply have to draw more boundaries. Again, thats not to say I wouldn't drop everything and work whatever hours necessary in case of an emergency at work, but its just not worth it to grind out 230 hour months over and over just for the sake of saying that I grind out 230 hour months regularly.

Hence the reason lawyers become alcoholics. Try to avoid that.

While I was more than a bit embarrassed to admit to my loved ones that an easygoing and happy person like me is seeking out therapy, I am glad that I'm addressing this problem now before it gets out of hand. I think I just needed the perspective on things, and to sort of let things go a bit more. I'm the neurotic and controlling type (as so many lawyers are), so its hard for me to say "I'm just going to go in, do my work well, be available as necessary, and then go home and relax, and enjoy my weekends unless there is an emergency that comes up". But given that I have no intention of doing this for more than a few more years at most, I don't see the point of approaching it differently.

It's really, really great that you're seeing someone. I initially went to a therapist after a personal trauma (mugging), but ended up staying in therapy and spending waaaay more time dealing with setting boundaries with the senior partner I work with than with the mugging thing. I've been seeing my therapist for more than a year about these issues and it's helped tremendously. And setting and enforcing boundaries with the partner (and other partners in my department) doesn't seem to have actually hurt me at work since they still know I'm ready and willing to jump in if there's a true emergency.

[rpupkin]

After meeting with her a few times, its pretty clear that she isn't recommending anything I couldn't have guessed myself. Said that letting work bleed into any and all aspects of my personal life is slowly chipping away at my mental health. This is why I simply have to draw more boundaries. Again, thats not to say I wouldn't drop everything and work whatever hours necessary in case of an emergency at work, but its just not worth it to grind out 230 hour months over and over just for the sake of saying that I grind out 230 hour months regularly.

Hence the reason lawyers become alcoholics. Try to avoid that.

You know, I've never gotten this. When I'm slammed and working a ton, I don't really want to drink. I mean, once in awhile I'll have a drink or two in the evening and then do some additional work, but if I drink a lot I can't work as effectively and I'll take even longer to get shit done (thus further cutting into free time/sleep). If anything, I drink more when work is slow and I'm not stressed.

I'm really impressed by folks who bill 200+ hours month after month while drinking heavily. The two seem incompatible. I guess I just lack the constitution. Or perhaps I just lack the amphetamines required to offset the depressant effects of alcohol.

[El Pollito]

After meeting with her a few times, its pretty clear that she isn't recommending anything I couldn't have guessed myself. Said that letting work bleed into any and all aspects of my personal life is slowly chipping away at my mental health. This is why I simply have to draw more boundaries. Again, thats not to say I wouldn't drop everything and work whatever hours necessary in case of an emergency at work, but its just not worth it to grind out 230 hour months over and over just for the sake of saying that I grind out 230 hour months regularly.

Hence the reason lawyers become alcoholics. Try to avoid that.

You know, I've never gotten this. When I'm slammed and working a ton, I don't really want to drink. I mean, once in awhile I'll have a drink or two in the evening and then do some additional work, but if I drink a lot I can't work as effectively and I'll take even longer to get shit done (thus further cutting into free time/sleep). If anything, I drink more when work is slow and I'm not stressed.

I'm really impressed by folks who bill 200+ hours month after month while drinking heavily. The two seem incompatible. I guess I just lack the constitution. Or perhaps I just lack the amphetamines required to offset the depressant effects of alcohol.

yup

[AreJay711]

You know, I've never gotten this. When I'm slammed and working a ton, I don't really want to drink. I mean, once in awhile I'll have a drink or two in the evening and then do some additional work, but if I drink a lot I can't work as effectively and I'll take even longer to get shit done (thus further cutting into free time/sleep). If anything, I drink more when work is slow and I'm not stressed.

I'm really impressed by folks who bill 200+ hours month after month while drinking heavily. The two seem incompatible. I guess I just lack the constitution. Or perhaps I just lack the amphetamines required to offset the depressant effects of alcohol.

I think at first it has to do more with getting you mind off work when you aren't working. Alcohol probably helps, but I could imagine that, after several months of using alcohol every day to relax, shit could start to spiral.

[Anonymous User]

After meeting with her a few times, its pretty clear that she isn't recommending anything I couldn't have guessed myself. Said that letting work bleed into any and all aspects of my personal life is slowly chipping away at my mental health. This is why I simply have to draw more boundaries. Again, thats not to say I wouldn't drop everything and work whatever hours necessary in case of an emergency at work, but its just not worth it to grind out 230 hour months over and over just for the sake of saying that I grind out 230 hour months regularly.

Hence the reason lawyers become alcoholics. Try to avoid that.

While I was more than a bit embarrassed to admit to my loved ones that an easygoing and happy person like me is seeking out therapy, I am glad that I'm addressing this problem now before it gets out of hand. I think I just needed the perspective on things, and to sort of let things go a bit more. I'm the neurotic and controlling type (as so many lawyers are), so its hard for me to say "I'm just going to go in, do my work well, be available as necessary, and then go home and relax, and enjoy my weekends unless there is an emergency that comes up". But given that I have no intention of doing this for more than a few more years at most, I don't see the point of approaching it differently.

It's really, really great that you're seeing someone. I initially went to a therapist after a personal trauma (mugging), but ended up staying in therapy and spending waaaay more time dealing with setting boundaries with the senior partner I work with than with the mugging thing. I've been seeing my therapist for more than a year about these issues and it's helped tremendously. And setting and enforcing boundaries with the partner (and other partners in my department) doesn't seem to have actually hurt me at work since they still know I'm ready and willing to jump in if there's a true emergency.

Thanks. I appreciate the input, and while I hate that others have to seek out therapy for this, I guess its good to know I'm not alone. I don't think setting those boundaries would hurt me. Sure, it may set a glass ceiling for your biglaw career, but thats simply not an issue to me since I will be gone before it ever matters. No junior who does good work, hits the hour requirement, and is generally available and well-regarded gets tossed unless very extenuating circumstances.

[Anonymous User]

You know, I've never gotten this. When I'm slammed and working a ton, I don't really want to drink. I mean, once in awhile I'll have a drink or two in the evening and then do some additional work, but if I drink a lot I can't work as effectively and I'll take even longer to get shit done (thus further cutting into free time/sleep). If anything, I drink more when work is slow and I'm not stressed.

I'm really impressed by folks who bill 200+ hours month after month while drinking heavily. The two seem incompatible. I guess I just lack the constitution. Or perhaps I just lack the amphetamines required to offset the depressant effects of alcohol.

I think at first it has to do more with getting you mind off work when you aren't working. Alcohol probably helps, but I could imagine that, after several months of using alcohol every day to relax, shit could start to spiral.

I think this is right. My big problem, and what drove me to therapy, is that I can't mentally "leave" work ever. Its always on my mind, and I can no longer enjoy the slivers of free time I have left. So one time I went drinking with friends not to just chill and have fun, but as a tool for forcing my mind to finally think about something else. And thats sort of how I knew I needed to seek out therapy for this problem, since using alcohol for that purpose was definitely not something I ever wanted to do.

[rpupkin]

I think this is right. My big problem, and what drove me to therapy, is that I can't mentally "leave" work ever. Its always on my mind, and I can no longer enjoy the slivers of free time I have left. So one time I went drinking with friends not to just chill and have fun, but as a tool for forcing my mind to finally think about something else. And thats sort of how I knew I needed to seek out therapy for this problem, since using alcohol for that purpose was definitely not something I ever wanted to do.

Oh wow. I've definitely done the bolded, even though I'm a light drinker overall. I think occasionally using alcohol to think about something else (or take the edge off your thoughts) is fine. Isn't that why most people drink? But, yeah, if it becomes a daily coping mechanism, that's cause for concern.