2021 End of Year Bonuses Forum
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- Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
It'll have to be a sea change in business practice over a few years. Boo-fucking-hoo for the firms who have been stingy on hiring forever instead of letting their juniors/laterals learn how to do their jobs for a bit instead of "hitting the ground running" by making sure everyone has a 100% utilization rate all the time and that the deals are "leanly staffed" and "you'll be working directly with a partner on this" (read: you will be doing the entire deal yourself). They fully have the choice to have a bigger associate bench that regularly bills 1600 instead of 2000 (and probably could pay less if they publicized that) and could pick up the slack in markets like this, and they don't do it, because the focus is always about maximizing profits this year, and fuck future years, because you could be gone after one headhunter call. So they goose everything up and then get mad when everybody hits their breaking point and they get pushback and departures, which turns into scrambling for any warm bodies for these things, who inevitably don't know what they're doing, because again, any money the firm invests into training is a little less marble in their place in Southampton.glitched wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:17 pmFirms are dying for associates right now. How would an hours cap even work? It will only happen if the partners turn down work, which they will not do.
They need to raise bonuses this year, and will need to give special bonuses to their top performers. Announcing Spring bonuses would also be smart as well.
Perhaps in the future they'll have to hold their nose and suffer the indignity of hiring 3.5 at Cornell instead of 3.6. Or God forbid, call some of those kids they said weren't a "cultural fit" (exactly who doesn't fit into the culture of sitting alone in your office with no visitors all day firing off "will do, thank" emails all day?).
Personally, I completely lose the ability to give a shit when a partner goes "I know we're all slammed right now" and then turns around the same day and tells the client we have capacity to take on new matters (we absolutely don't). And the thing that made me confident in my decision to lateral again the minute my signing bonus is locked up are the smarmy emails from management with "We have heard your concerns about burnout and mental health, and advise that you attend the firm's yoga class with Guru Lindsay Fridays at 6:30."
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
JFC this is the best thing I have read in a while. I couldn't sum up my indignation and frustration much better than this. -Burnt out mid-levelMonochromatic Oeuvre wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:27 pmIt'll have to be a sea change in business practice over a few years. Boo-fucking-hoo for the firms who have been stingy on hiring forever instead of letting their juniors/laterals learn how to do their jobs for a bit instead of "hitting the ground running" by making sure everyone has a 100% utilization rate all the time and that the deals are "leanly staffed" and "you'll be working directly with a partner on this" (read: you will be doing the entire deal yourself). They fully have the choice to have a bigger associate bench that regularly bills 1600 instead of 2000 (and probably could pay less if they publicized that) and could pick up the slack in markets like this, and they don't do it, because the focus is always about maximizing profits this year, and fuck future years, because you could be gone after one headhunter call. So they goose everything up and then get mad when everybody hits their breaking point and they get pushback and departures, which turns into scrambling for any warm bodies for these things, who inevitably don't know what they're doing, because again, any money the firm invests into training is a little less marble in their place in Southampton.glitched wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:17 pmFirms are dying for associates right now. How would an hours cap even work? It will only happen if the partners turn down work, which they will not do.
They need to raise bonuses this year, and will need to give special bonuses to their top performers. Announcing Spring bonuses would also be smart as well.
Perhaps in the future they'll have to hold their nose and suffer the indignity of hiring 3.5 at Cornell instead of 3.6. Or God forbid, call some of those kids they said weren't a "cultural fit" (exactly who doesn't fit into the culture of sitting alone in your office with no visitors all day firing off "will do, thank" emails all day?).
Personally, I completely lose the ability to give a shit when a partner goes "I know we're all slammed right now" and then turns around the same day and tells the client we have capacity to take on new matters (we absolutely don't). And the thing that made me confident in my decision to lateral again the minute my signing bonus is locked up are the smarmy emails from management with "We have heard your concerns about burnout and mental health, and advise that you attend the firm's yoga class with Guru Lindsay Fridays at 6:30."
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
This is a (commendable, enticing) fantasy. You're essentially describing life at a "large law firm" until some breaking point in the 1980s - 2000s, depending on the firm in question. Once the horse got out of the barn and things transformed from a white-shoe profession to a profit-maximizing institution it can never be put back in again. It will never, ever happen because of market pressures; any firm that attempted this would be consumed by market forces and partner defections. We're in capitalism end times now and it's not changing, at least not within biglaw--you have to go down a notch to a regional firm to find this sort of business handbook still.Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:27 pmIt'll have to be a sea change in business practice over a few years. Boo-fucking-hoo for the firms who have been stingy on hiring forever instead of letting their juniors/laterals learn how to do their jobs for a bit instead of "hitting the ground running" by making sure everyone has a 100% utilization rate all the time and that the deals are "leanly staffed" and "you'll be working directly with a partner on this" (read: you will be doing the entire deal yourself). They fully have the choice to have a bigger associate bench that regularly bills 1600 instead of 2000 (and probably could pay less if they publicized that) and could pick up the slack in markets like this, and they don't do it, because the focus is always about maximizing profits this year, and fuck future years, because you could be gone after one headhunter call. So they goose everything up and then get mad when everybody hits their breaking point and they get pushback and departures, which turns into scrambling for any warm bodies for these things, who inevitably don't know what they're doing, because again, any money the firm invests into training is a little less marble in their place in Southampton.glitched wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:17 pmFirms are dying for associates right now. How would an hours cap even work? It will only happen if the partners turn down work, which they will not do.
They need to raise bonuses this year, and will need to give special bonuses to their top performers. Announcing Spring bonuses would also be smart as well.
Perhaps in the future they'll have to hold their nose and suffer the indignity of hiring 3.5 at Cornell instead of 3.6. Or God forbid, call some of those kids they said weren't a "cultural fit" (exactly who doesn't fit into the culture of sitting alone in your office with no visitors all day firing off "will do, thank" emails all day?).
Personally, I completely lose the ability to give a shit when a partner goes "I know we're all slammed right now" and then turns around the same day and tells the client we have capacity to take on new matters (we absolutely don't). And the thing that made me confident in my decision to lateral again the minute my signing bonus is locked up are the smarmy emails from management with "We have heard your concerns about burnout and mental health, and advise that you attend the firm's yoga class with Guru Lindsay Fridays at 6:30."
To be clear, I wish that weren't the case. I'd pay a lot of money to be able to go back in time and operate at a "biglaw" practice (as they existed then, say 80 attorneys to start, 400 by the end?) from, say, 1950 - 1990, have meaningful work-life balance, good firm culture, the perception that we're all partners and professionals together in a shared enterprise. My comp. would probably cap. out sometime in the 80s at like 500k, so I'd never have the shot at making $5m a year, and I couldn't give two shits less about that because the tradeoff isn't worth it except for an infinitesimally small number of equity partners these days who, likewise, don't give two shits about what they've done to the model or how others are suffering under it as long as they're getting theirs and can afford the third vacation house and jet share.
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
Probably getting too off-topic here, but I don't understand why some firms haven't done this to compete with for top talent.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:44 amI would take a pay cut (let alone static pay) to stay at 1800, with real tracking of my pace to make sure I would end up 1750-1850 at year end, building in four weeks of vacation (real leave the phone behind vacation). And if I’m over pace at some point tracked weekly, I get responsibility removed from my plate. There is no setting like this but if it existed I would take a meaningful pay cut to get it.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 9:51 amI'd much rather be capped out at 1800 hours than get a bigger bonus.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 9:32 amHey fellow kids, how would you feel if your firm announced no change to bonus scale but made a bunch of representations like drastically reducing minimum hours for bonus (e.g. 1800) and said they were massively expanding associate ranks to avoid overburdening associates with too many matters?
I'm only slightly kidding. Incremental increases in cash are simply not going to fix the root fundamental flaw in the model, i.e. crushing workloads. But more money just kicks the can down the road which is by design.
Also the more money they feel they need to give out, the more justified they feel about crushing workloads. I.e., what are you complaining about, we increased bonuses?
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
This is also very on point but I would note that technological advances also played a large role. Everything took time back in the day (onsite diligence, in person meetings, no email). Where as now I can get a registered direct offering dropped on me by a pubco at 7pm and have to turn everything overnight so the announcement 8-K can go out pre-market.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:59 pmThis is a (commendable, enticing) fantasy. You're essentially describing life at a "large law firm" until some breaking point in the 1980s - 2000s, depending on the firm in question. Once the horse got out of the barn and things transformed from a white-shoe profession to a profit-maximizing institution it can never be put back in again. It will never, ever happen because of market pressures; any firm that attempted this would be consumed by market forces and partner defections. We're in capitalism end times now and it's not changing, at least not within biglaw--you have to go down a notch to a regional firm to find this sort of business handbook still.Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:27 pmIt'll have to be a sea change in business practice over a few years. Boo-fucking-hoo for the firms who have been stingy on hiring forever instead of letting their juniors/laterals learn how to do their jobs for a bit instead of "hitting the ground running" by making sure everyone has a 100% utilization rate all the time and that the deals are "leanly staffed" and "you'll be working directly with a partner on this" (read: you will be doing the entire deal yourself). They fully have the choice to have a bigger associate bench that regularly bills 1600 instead of 2000 (and probably could pay less if they publicized that) and could pick up the slack in markets like this, and they don't do it, because the focus is always about maximizing profits this year, and fuck future years, because you could be gone after one headhunter call. So they goose everything up and then get mad when everybody hits their breaking point and they get pushback and departures, which turns into scrambling for any warm bodies for these things, who inevitably don't know what they're doing, because again, any money the firm invests into training is a little less marble in their place in Southampton.glitched wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:17 pmFirms are dying for associates right now. How would an hours cap even work? It will only happen if the partners turn down work, which they will not do.
They need to raise bonuses this year, and will need to give special bonuses to their top performers. Announcing Spring bonuses would also be smart as well.
Perhaps in the future they'll have to hold their nose and suffer the indignity of hiring 3.5 at Cornell instead of 3.6. Or God forbid, call some of those kids they said weren't a "cultural fit" (exactly who doesn't fit into the culture of sitting alone in your office with no visitors all day firing off "will do, thank" emails all day?).
Personally, I completely lose the ability to give a shit when a partner goes "I know we're all slammed right now" and then turns around the same day and tells the client we have capacity to take on new matters (we absolutely don't). And the thing that made me confident in my decision to lateral again the minute my signing bonus is locked up are the smarmy emails from management with "We have heard your concerns about burnout and mental health, and advise that you attend the firm's yoga class with Guru Lindsay Fridays at 6:30."
To be clear, I wish that weren't the case. I'd pay a lot of money to be able to go back in time and operate at a "biglaw" practice (as they existed then, say 80 attorneys to start, 400 by the end?) from, say, 1950 - 1990, have meaningful work-life balance, good firm culture, the perception that we're all partners and professionals together in a shared enterprise. My comp. would probably cap. out sometime in the 80s at like 500k, so I'd never have the shot at making $5m a year, and I couldn't give two shits less about that because the tradeoff isn't worth it except for an infinitesimally small number of equity partners these days who, likewise, don't give two shits about what they've done to the model or how others are suffering under it as long as they're getting theirs and can afford the third vacation house and jet share.
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
If a firm tried to sell themselves as a lower paying shop where you actually work materially less...would you believe it? Would you be confident enough making the leap to that place for less pay based on their claim? Remember that lots of firms claim that their average billables are 1,800.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:01 pmProbably getting too off-topic here, but I don't understand why some firms haven't done this to compete with for top talent.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:44 am
I would take a pay cut (let alone static pay) to stay at 1800, with real tracking of my pace to make sure I would end up 1750-1850 at year end, building in four weeks of vacation (real leave the phone behind vacation). And if I’m over pace at some point tracked weekly, I get responsibility removed from my plate. There is no setting like this but if it existed I would take a meaningful pay cut to get it.
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
That's a very true point and actually something I was going to add, which is that the exit time of ~1990 is perfect because it gets you out just before the real rise of things like cell phones and e-mail which contributed to the always-on / always-available culture that we now live in. There is literally no comparison between the experience of some boomer coming up through the ranks of his firm in the 80s where when he walked out the door at night, even if it might be late, he could literally shut his mind off because he wasn't accessible by cell or e-mail, and what we now live with as an ordinary feature of everyday life.TUwave wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:06 pmThis is also very on point but I would note that technological advances also played a large role. Everything took time back in the day (onsite diligence, in person meetings, no email). Where as now I can get a registered direct offering dropped on me by a pubco at 7pm and have to turn everything overnight so the announcement 8-K can go out pre-market.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:59 pmThis is a (commendable, enticing) fantasy. You're essentially describing life at a "large law firm" until some breaking point in the 1980s - 2000s, depending on the firm in question. Once the horse got out of the barn and things transformed from a white-shoe profession to a profit-maximizing institution it can never be put back in again. It will never, ever happen because of market pressures; any firm that attempted this would be consumed by market forces and partner defections. We're in capitalism end times now and it's not changing, at least not within biglaw--you have to go down a notch to a regional firm to find this sort of business handbook still.Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:27 pmIt'll have to be a sea change in business practice over a few years. Boo-fucking-hoo for the firms who have been stingy on hiring forever instead of letting their juniors/laterals learn how to do their jobs for a bit instead of "hitting the ground running" by making sure everyone has a 100% utilization rate all the time and that the deals are "leanly staffed" and "you'll be working directly with a partner on this" (read: you will be doing the entire deal yourself). They fully have the choice to have a bigger associate bench that regularly bills 1600 instead of 2000 (and probably could pay less if they publicized that) and could pick up the slack in markets like this, and they don't do it, because the focus is always about maximizing profits this year, and fuck future years, because you could be gone after one headhunter call. So they goose everything up and then get mad when everybody hits their breaking point and they get pushback and departures, which turns into scrambling for any warm bodies for these things, who inevitably don't know what they're doing, because again, any money the firm invests into training is a little less marble in their place in Southampton.glitched wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:17 pmFirms are dying for associates right now. How would an hours cap even work? It will only happen if the partners turn down work, which they will not do.
They need to raise bonuses this year, and will need to give special bonuses to their top performers. Announcing Spring bonuses would also be smart as well.
Perhaps in the future they'll have to hold their nose and suffer the indignity of hiring 3.5 at Cornell instead of 3.6. Or God forbid, call some of those kids they said weren't a "cultural fit" (exactly who doesn't fit into the culture of sitting alone in your office with no visitors all day firing off "will do, thank" emails all day?).
Personally, I completely lose the ability to give a shit when a partner goes "I know we're all slammed right now" and then turns around the same day and tells the client we have capacity to take on new matters (we absolutely don't). And the thing that made me confident in my decision to lateral again the minute my signing bonus is locked up are the smarmy emails from management with "We have heard your concerns about burnout and mental health, and advise that you attend the firm's yoga class with Guru Lindsay Fridays at 6:30."
To be clear, I wish that weren't the case. I'd pay a lot of money to be able to go back in time and operate at a "biglaw" practice (as they existed then, say 80 attorneys to start, 400 by the end?) from, say, 1950 - 1990, have meaningful work-life balance, good firm culture, the perception that we're all partners and professionals together in a shared enterprise. My comp. would probably cap. out sometime in the 80s at like 500k, so I'd never have the shot at making $5m a year, and I couldn't give two shits less about that because the tradeoff isn't worth it except for an infinitesimally small number of equity partners these days who, likewise, don't give two shits about what they've done to the model or how others are suffering under it as long as they're getting theirs and can afford the third vacation house and jet share.
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
"will do, thank" hit me hard
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
This is all good stuff but can we also focus on the fact that Mintz moved the scale and what/when we should expect from Milbank or DPW?
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
That thread says "$20k announced in the spring and in September for those annualizing 2k hours" -- i.e. $20k in the spring AND $20k in September (and assuming it varies by class year same as DPW but poster was just lazy to write the full matrix). SO this is not a true up. Mintz are compensation leaders, and likely by a significant portion.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:49 amSort of. Mintz's retention bonuses this year were only $20k as reported (FINALLY) in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=311341&sid=c1e3ed4 ... fdf811d9de, so this is more of a true-up that tops market for most juniors, and falls behind for seniors. Regardless, I bet Mintz skips out on whatever special bonuses are offered this year, so Mintz associates will probably fall behind despite thinking their firm is a comp leader.
Retention Bonuses (Mintz / difference)
$12k ($40k / +$28k)
$16k ($40k / +$24k)
$32k ($60k / +$28k)
$44k ($60k / +$16k)
$52k ($60k / +$8k)
$59k ($60k / -$1k)
$64k ($60k / -$4k)
Did Mintz match the 2020 special bonuses?
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
Correct. This is the new EOY bonus scale before DPW or someone else tops it.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:39 pmThat thread says "$20k announced in the spring and in September for those annualizing 2k hours" -- i.e. $20k in the spring AND $20k in September (and assuming it varies by class year same as DPW but poster was just lazy to write the full matrix). SO this is not a true up. Mintz are compensation leaders, and likely by a significant portion.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:49 amSort of. Mintz's retention bonuses this year were only $20k as reported (FINALLY) in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=311341&sid=c1e3ed4 ... fdf811d9de, so this is more of a true-up that tops market for most juniors, and falls behind for seniors. Regardless, I bet Mintz skips out on whatever special bonuses are offered this year, so Mintz associates will probably fall behind despite thinking their firm is a comp leader.
Retention Bonuses (Mintz / difference)
$12k ($40k / +$28k)
$16k ($40k / +$24k)
$32k ($60k / +$28k)
$44k ($60k / +$16k)
$52k ($60k / +$8k)
$59k ($60k / -$1k)
$64k ($60k / -$4k)
Did Mintz match the 2020 special bonuses?
35k (from 15k)
45k (from 25k)
90k (from 50k)
105k (from 65k)
120k (from 80k)
130k (from 90k)
140k (from 100k)
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
Shouldn't it be more like:note7wins wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:46 pmCorrect. This is the new EOY bonus scale before DPW or someone else tops it.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:39 pmThat thread says "$20k announced in the spring and in September for those annualizing 2k hours" -- i.e. $20k in the spring AND $20k in September (and assuming it varies by class year same as DPW but poster was just lazy to write the full matrix). SO this is not a true up. Mintz are compensation leaders, and likely by a significant portion.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:49 amSort of. Mintz's retention bonuses this year were only $20k as reported (FINALLY) in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=311341&sid=c1e3ed4 ... fdf811d9de, so this is more of a true-up that tops market for most juniors, and falls behind for seniors. Regardless, I bet Mintz skips out on whatever special bonuses are offered this year, so Mintz associates will probably fall behind despite thinking their firm is a comp leader.
Retention Bonuses (Mintz / difference)
$12k ($40k / +$28k)
$16k ($40k / +$24k)
$32k ($60k / +$28k)
$44k ($60k / +$16k)
$52k ($60k / +$8k)
$59k ($60k / -$1k)
$64k ($60k / -$4k)
Did Mintz match the 2020 special bonuses?
35k (from 15k)
45k (from 25k)
90k (from 50k)
105k (from 65k)
120k (from 80k)
130k (from 90k)
140k (from 100k)
35k (?prorated?) (from 35k prorated)
45k (from 35k)
90k (from 70k)
105k (from 92.5k)
120k (from 112.5k)
130k (from 127k)
140k (from 140k)
See: https://abovethelaw.com/2020/11/cravath-bonuses/
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
No - based on that ATL post, Cravath were just too cheap to pay out the DPW special COVID bonus in September so they tacked it onto end of year December bonuses. Mintz reportedly payed (full or almost full) COVID bonuses this year so this 20/40k is all new money.
This is the new EOY bonus scale before DPW or someone else tops it.
35k (from 15k)
45k (from 25k)
90k (from 50k)
105k (from 65k)
120k (from 80k)
130k (from 90k)
140k (from 100k)
This is the new EOY bonus scale before DPW or someone else tops it.
35k (from 15k)
45k (from 25k)
90k (from 50k)
105k (from 65k)
120k (from 80k)
130k (from 90k)
140k (from 100k)
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
I'm just confused by this -- probably not tracking all the back and forth -- because at my firm the base end of year bonus for my year was 140k in 2020, which the firm represented as being a 100k base + the 40k special wrapped into one, since they thought it was ridiculous to issue a separate bonus in November so close to the end of the year. That's the approach Cravath took; they weren't being "cheap" they just thought it was an administrative headache and they matched every penny of what the market was doing through a single year end payment. I think Skadden and Kirkland both did the same thing along with plenty of others in the V25--it ended up being about a 50/50 split between firms that did two separate payments in the 4th quarter and those that just kept it to a single all-in payment.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:01 pmNo - based on that ATL post, Cravath were just too cheap to pay out the DPW special COVID bonus in September so they tacked it onto end of year December bonuses. Mintz reportedly payed (full or almost full) COVID bonuses this year so this 20/40k is all new money.
This is the new EOY bonus scale before DPW or someone else tops it.
35k (from 15k)
45k (from 25k)
90k (from 50k)
105k (from 65k)
120k (from 80k)
130k (from 90k)
140k (from 100k)
So I don't understand why you're saying that the base last year was 100k for my class year or those of us in a similar level of seniority -- from my perspective, the base was 140k (which makes what Mintz has done this year exactly the same as what the industry did last year). Unless you're saying that they're giving out 140k to 7th years and beyond and then on top of the 140k they're ALSO going to be paying a November bonus and that's ALSO in addition to what they already paid in September as part of the April / September spring / fall bonus cycle.
Does that make sense? We need to be careful not to let firms pull bullshit by confusing the all-in end of year comp numbers. If the scale for ordinary senior associates this year tops at 140k for a standard associate billing 2,000 hours, that's identical to what was being paid last year from my perspective, which would be disappointing. If it tops at 140k in December, plus many firms are giving out another 20-40k in November (for an all-in of 160k or 180k or whatever between November and December), then that's a beat of last year's figure and I'd expect firms in the V25 to all match either through a single EoY payment or by behaving similarly and issuing both a November bonus for 20k or 40k or whatever and then an EoY for 140k; maybe we see a split again in approach like last year.
Again, from my perspective as far as what we got end of year 2020, it looked like this (compared with the current Mintz scale as represented by your above post):
35k (?prorated?) (from 35k prorated)
45k (from 35k)
90k (from 70k)
105k (from 92.5k)
120k (from 112.5k)
130k (from 127k)
140k (from 140k)
And I didn't really sweat the firm from doing it like that, I thought it was silly too for some firms in the V25 to be issuing a "special" bonus just one month before the end of year bonus, it's confusing and at that point I'd rather just have all the comp. rolled into a single payment.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
Hear hearAnonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:35 pmJFC this is the best thing I have read in a while. I couldn't sum up my indignation and frustration much better than this. -Burnt out mid-levelMonochromatic Oeuvre wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:27 pmIt'll have to be a sea change in business practice over a few years. Boo-fucking-hoo for the firms who have been stingy on hiring forever instead of letting their juniors/laterals learn how to do their jobs for a bit instead of "hitting the ground running" by making sure everyone has a 100% utilization rate all the time and that the deals are "leanly staffed" and "you'll be working directly with a partner on this" (read: you will be doing the entire deal yourself). They fully have the choice to have a bigger associate bench that regularly bills 1600 instead of 2000 (and probably could pay less if they publicized that) and could pick up the slack in markets like this, and they don't do it, because the focus is always about maximizing profits this year, and fuck future years, because you could be gone after one headhunter call. So they goose everything up and then get mad when everybody hits their breaking point and they get pushback and departures, which turns into scrambling for any warm bodies for these things, who inevitably don't know what they're doing, because again, any money the firm invests into training is a little less marble in their place in Southampton.glitched wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:17 pmFirms are dying for associates right now. How would an hours cap even work? It will only happen if the partners turn down work, which they will not do.
They need to raise bonuses this year, and will need to give special bonuses to their top performers. Announcing Spring bonuses would also be smart as well.
Perhaps in the future they'll have to hold their nose and suffer the indignity of hiring 3.5 at Cornell instead of 3.6. Or God forbid, call some of those kids they said weren't a "cultural fit" (exactly who doesn't fit into the culture of sitting alone in your office with no visitors all day firing off "will do, thank" emails all day?).
Personally, I completely lose the ability to give a shit when a partner goes "I know we're all slammed right now" and then turns around the same day and tells the client we have capacity to take on new matters (we absolutely don't). And the thing that made me confident in my decision to lateral again the minute my signing bonus is locked up are the smarmy emails from management with "We have heard your concerns about burnout and mental health, and advise that you attend the firm's yoga class with Guru Lindsay Fridays at 6:30."
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
I think stating numbers will help clear this up. Assuming Mintz paid DPW COVID scale this year (it's confirmed they paid at least $40k) and end-of-year scale is the same as last year, these are the numbers for Mintz:Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:05 pmSo I don't understand why you're saying that the base last year was 100k for my class year or those of us in a similar level of seniority -- from my perspective, the base was 140k (which makes what Mintz has done this year exactly the same as what the industry did last year). Unless you're saying that they're giving out 140k to 7th years and beyond and then on top of the 140k they're ALSO going to be paying a November bonus and that's ALSO in addition to what they already paid in September as part of the April / September spring / fall bonus cycle.

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- cornerstone
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
That can't be. You're telling me that Mintz (of all firms) has already paid juniors a total of $60k and seniors $80k and promised market EOY bonuses? In other words, first years will receive a total of at least $75k and the most seniors will get $180k? I just don't believe it. Perhaps they are just trying to smooth over some animosity from the 2020 pay cuts?note7wins wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:46 pmCorrect. This is the new EOY bonus scale before DPW or someone else tops it.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:39 pmThat thread says "$20k announced in the spring and in September for those annualizing 2k hours" -- i.e. $20k in the spring AND $20k in September (and assuming it varies by class year same as DPW but poster was just lazy to write the full matrix). SO this is not a true up. Mintz are compensation leaders, and likely by a significant portion.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:49 amSort of. Mintz's retention bonuses this year were only $20k as reported (FINALLY) in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=311341&sid=c1e3ed4 ... fdf811d9de, so this is more of a true-up that tops market for most juniors, and falls behind for seniors. Regardless, I bet Mintz skips out on whatever special bonuses are offered this year, so Mintz associates will probably fall behind despite thinking their firm is a comp leader.
Retention Bonuses (Mintz / difference)
$12k ($40k / +$28k)
$16k ($40k / +$24k)
$32k ($60k / +$28k)
$44k ($60k / +$16k)
$52k ($60k / +$8k)
$59k ($60k / -$1k)
$64k ($60k / -$4k)
Did Mintz match the 2020 special bonuses?
35k (from 15k)
45k (from 25k)
90k (from 50k)
105k (from 65k)
120k (from 80k)
130k (from 90k)
140k (from 100k)
If you're from Mintz and reading this, is there any point to getting top comp if you're not going to gloat on TLS? Spill the beans about how much more you've made than the rest of us since 2020.
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
I appreciate your chart but I think you have a weird way of looking at this that isn't helpful and isn't reflective of how the industry is going to regard things. In particular, you're comparing the spring/fall bonus from 21 with the special bonus multiplier from 20 when they're two totally different things. Are you a Mintz associate trying to push the idea that Mintz is doing something really special right now? They have raised the scale a little for juniors and mid-levels but not by much.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:39 pmI think stating numbers will help clear this up. Assuming Mintz paid DPW COVID scale this year (it's confirmed they paid at least $40k) and end-of-year scale is the same as last year, these are the numbers for Mintz:Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:05 pmSo I don't understand why you're saying that the base last year was 100k for my class year or those of us in a similar level of seniority -- from my perspective, the base was 140k (which makes what Mintz has done this year exactly the same as what the industry did last year). Unless you're saying that they're giving out 140k to 7th years and beyond and then on top of the 140k they're ALSO going to be paying a November bonus and that's ALSO in addition to what they already paid in September as part of the April / September spring / fall bonus cycle.
![]()
In 2020, there were no spring/fall bonuses because people weren't sure if the end of the world was happening or not. In 2021, there were, up to 64k for seniors / of counsel. Those are now done with and firms either matched them or not--we're moving into the winter and it's a moot point.
What we're focused on now is end of year compensation for bonus season. In 2020, end of year bonuses had two components, the regular bonus scale plus a "special" bonus which reflected the extraordinary circumstances. The scale for 2020 year-end bonuses was, per the Cravath link I posted:
35k (prorated)
35k
70k
92.5k
112.5k
127k
140k
In 2021, a market standard firm be paying as follows:
* A salary increase per Davis Polk
* A spring / fall bonus
* The end of year bonus
The end of year bonus scale that all of us are going to be referencing, whether we got the payment announced once in December or split over a November "special" and December "base," is what I posted from Cravath above.
If that scale is matched exactly for end of year compensation, then it's even to 2020. Mintz looks like it's mildly beat the 2020 scale through what it's calling its EoY bonus + Retention bonus, assuming there are no weird hours cutoffs or conditions. Which leads to the current reference chart:
35k (?prorated?) (from 35k prorated)
45k (from 35k)
90k (from 70k)
105k (from 92.5k)
120k (from 112.5k)
130k (from 127k)
140k (from 140k)
I expect a firm like DPW, Simpson, Cravath is going to easily come over this scale and set the actual market within the next couple weeks.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
Slow clap.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:16 pmHear hearAnonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:35 pmJFC this is the best thing I have read in a while. I couldn't sum up my indignation and frustration much better than this. -Burnt out mid-levelMonochromatic Oeuvre wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:27 pmIt'll have to be a sea change in business practice over a few years. Boo-fucking-hoo for the firms who have been stingy on hiring forever instead of letting their juniors/laterals learn how to do their jobs for a bit instead of "hitting the ground running" by making sure everyone has a 100% utilization rate all the time and that the deals are "leanly staffed" and "you'll be working directly with a partner on this" (read: you will be doing the entire deal yourself). They fully have the choice to have a bigger associate bench that regularly bills 1600 instead of 2000 (and probably could pay less if they publicized that) and could pick up the slack in markets like this, and they don't do it, because the focus is always about maximizing profits this year, and fuck future years, because you could be gone after one headhunter call. So they goose everything up and then get mad when everybody hits their breaking point and they get pushback and departures, which turns into scrambling for any warm bodies for these things, who inevitably don't know what they're doing, because again, any money the firm invests into training is a little less marble in their place in Southampton.glitched wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:17 pmFirms are dying for associates right now. How would an hours cap even work? It will only happen if the partners turn down work, which they will not do.
They need to raise bonuses this year, and will need to give special bonuses to their top performers. Announcing Spring bonuses would also be smart as well.
Perhaps in the future they'll have to hold their nose and suffer the indignity of hiring 3.5 at Cornell instead of 3.6. Or God forbid, call some of those kids they said weren't a "cultural fit" (exactly who doesn't fit into the culture of sitting alone in your office with no visitors all day firing off "will do, thank" emails all day?).
Personally, I completely lose the ability to give a shit when a partner goes "I know we're all slammed right now" and then turns around the same day and tells the client we have capacity to take on new matters (we absolutely don't). And the thing that made me confident in my decision to lateral again the minute my signing bonus is locked up are the smarmy emails from management with "We have heard your concerns about burnout and mental health, and advise that you attend the firm's yoga class with Guru Lindsay Fridays at 6:30."
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
Everyone compares those two bonuses. There is a very high likelihood Cravath or whoever comes out and mentions EOY 7th year bonuses are $100k and everyone's reaction will be they are consistent from last year. No, I am not a Mintz associate. You sound like a partner trying to sway the conversation from the fact that Mintz are compensation leaders with 1/3rd of DPW's PEP.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:15 pmI appreciate your chart but I think you have a weird way of looking at this that isn't helpful and isn't reflective of how the industry is going to regard things. In particular, you're comparing the spring/fall bonus from 21 with the special bonus multiplier from 20 when they're two totally different things. Are you a Mintz associate trying to push the idea that Mintz is doing something really special right now? They have raised the scale a little for juniors and mid-levels but not by much.
The rest of your post is pointless because you and you alone believe end of year bonuses last year were topped at $140k when they were in fact topped at $100k. Even in your scenario, Mintz has committed to paying $40k + whatever end of year bonuses are, so you are still wrong. It's getting tiresome trying to explain this.
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
The problem isn't finding bodies. It's finding talent. That's why some groups have associates that burn 3000 hours and some that coast on 1400. And if you're burnt out, you're one of the talented ones. It's hard for you to see, especially if you're junior, but there are a lot of bad associates out there.
I can see law firms struggling to find talent right now, which is compounded even more considering a lot of the smartest people out of undergrad are deciding to do anything else other than law... why? Because they're the smartest people out of undergrad.
Some will probably say that's not true and any Joe Schmo off the street can do this job. That may be the case for some practice areas (which I know nothing about), but for a lot of them, there's a base line that's actually hard to meet. It seems "easy" for some of you because well, you got talent. You got to understand that the associates are the product. Apple sells iPhones. Law firms sell their associates. They need good ones and unfortunately for firms, the good ones are getting smart and finding greener pastures.
That's why they better pay in December or it's bye bye for many of us.
I can see law firms struggling to find talent right now, which is compounded even more considering a lot of the smartest people out of undergrad are deciding to do anything else other than law... why? Because they're the smartest people out of undergrad.
Some will probably say that's not true and any Joe Schmo off the street can do this job. That may be the case for some practice areas (which I know nothing about), but for a lot of them, there's a base line that's actually hard to meet. It seems "easy" for some of you because well, you got talent. You got to understand that the associates are the product. Apple sells iPhones. Law firms sell their associates. They need good ones and unfortunately for firms, the good ones are getting smart and finding greener pastures.
That's why they better pay in December or it's bye bye for many of us.
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
Settle yourself. I'm not a partner I'm a senior associate wanting to make sure that we're having an accurate conversation. No one gives a shit about "Mintz" except as a joke to occupy us until a real law firm announces in the next couple weeks.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:30 pmEveryone compares those two bonuses. There is a very high likelihood Cravath or whoever comes out and mentions EOY 7th year bonuses are $100k and everyone's reaction will be they are consistent from last year. No, I am not a Mintz associate. You sound like a partner trying to sway the conversation from the fact that Mintz are compensation leaders with 1/3rd of DPW's PEP.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:15 pmI appreciate your chart but I think you have a weird way of looking at this that isn't helpful and isn't reflective of how the industry is going to regard things. In particular, you're comparing the spring/fall bonus from 21 with the special bonus multiplier from 20 when they're two totally different things. Are you a Mintz associate trying to push the idea that Mintz is doing something really special right now? They have raised the scale a little for juniors and mid-levels but not by much.
The rest of your post is pointless because you and you alone believe end of year bonuses last year were topped at $140k when they were in fact topped at $100k. Even in your scenario where end of year bonuses last year were $140k, Mintz has committed to paying $40k + whatever end of year bonuses are, so you are still wrong. It's getting tiresome trying to explain this.
There's no chance Cravath or a Cravath-like firm is going to announce a scale topped at 100k all-in and try to pull that much comp off the table vs. last year. A real firm is going to come by and either announce a November special bonus + EoY scale or else a combined all-in EoY scale and then we'll actually be off to the races. I suspect it will look something like (sticking to our class year example bumped a year for '21):
c/o 2014: 125k (base) + 50k (COVID): 175k
What Mintz would do then is top up, supposedly, so for someone in c/o 2014 they'd add another 35k to their promise if they stick to it. They'll work off the market base number with the goal of making sure they match market all-in, they're not going to try to come over the top of market all-in by 40k.
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Re: 2021 End of Year Bonuses
I sure as hell hope so but I may not be as confident as you are. In any event, I think we can all agree no firm could possibly offer c/o 2014 less than $140k or c/o 2018 less than $90k after Mintz has presented that baseline.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:38 pmSettle yourself. I'm not a partner I'm a senior associate wanting to make sure that we're having an accurate conversation. No one gives a shit about "Mintz" except as a joke to occupy us until a real law firm announces in the next couple weeks.
There's no chance Cravath or a Cravath-like firm is going to announce a scale topped at 100k all-in and try to pull that much comp off the table vs. last year. A real firm is going to come by and either announce a November special bonus + EoY scale or else a combined all-in EoY scale and then we'll actually be off to the races. I suspect it will look something like (sticking to our class year example bumped a year for '21):
c/o 2014: 125k (base) + 50k (COVID): 175k
What Mintz would do then is top up, supposedly, so for someone in c/o 2014 they'd add another 35k to their promise if they stick to it. They'll work off the market base number with the goal of making sure they match market all-in, they're not going to try to come over the top of market all-in by 40k.
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