Columbia EIP 2016 Forum

[John_Luther1989]

mid stone. skipping eip. what are my options if i later want to go to a firm? do 2Ls get hired in spring oci, 3ls? what do people who strike out do for firm gigs?

Why are you skipping EIP? If you think you might want a firm job, don't skip EIP. Just do it and you can push most offers off a fair while before you have to decide where/if you're gonna do it. PI hiring happens closer to the end of the year than the beginning, so it isn't like you can test both markets simultaneously. I know someone who confirmed with a firm, then reneged mad late in the year for PI. It's not a very professional thing to do, but it's your career and it isn't like they're gonna do anything to you. The school might get pissed, but I'm not sure what their rules are on that.

To answer you questions:
(1) 2Ls can get jobs through spring OCI, but the quality of the firms drops TREMENDOUSLY
(2) 3Ls can participate in EIP and there is usually a spot or two to be had there with some random firm trying to balance out their class' yield with dual-offer SAs or practice group choices. I think 3Ls can do spring OCI too, but I'm not sure if firms come there for 3Ls.
(3a) People that strike out and want firm gigs mass mail and pound the pavement until they find something. Hard to find easily convertible (if at all convertible) SA positions that way though
(3b) People who strike out and decide against firm jobs find something to do 2L summer and get their resume tight for fellowship applications and the late 3L year PI gig hunt.

[jbagelboy]

mid stone. skipping eip. what are my options if i later want to go to a firm? do 2Ls get hired in spring oci, 3ls? what do people who strike out do for firm gigs?

don't skip it. why would you skip it

[iamgeorgebush]

mid stone. skipping eip. what are my options if i later want to go to a firm? do 2Ls get hired in spring oci, 3ls? what do people who strike out do for firm gigs?

don't skip it. why would you skip it

[iamgeorgebush]

Emailed a firm for a pre-EIP email and they said that Columbia has a strict policy prohibiting firms from interviewing before EIP. But that if I think Columbia would be willing to make an exception, they would love to meet with me.

How should I respond? Clearly pre-EIP interviewing is a widespread thing and Columbia isn't going to punish a V10 for doing it. Should I just tell the firm that? It's in a secondary market, so I think the recruiter may not understand how common early interviews are.

Also WTF Columbia OCS for putting me (and presumably other students) in this position

tell them you know a friend who is doing pre EIP interviews. I personally know several people doing local job fairs before OCI and/or interviewing after mass mailing

Original anon here. I responded along the lines suggested, and got a message back from the firm that they called OCS, told them they want to interview me, and OCS told them they're not allowed to. So they're not going to do it.

Am I right to think it's really out of line for OCS to essentially veto a callback for me? Not only are they not helping me get a job, they're actively blocking me

this is so incredibly stupid. you should call OCS and complain. i feel like calling them myself to tell them how stupid they are (and i'm a 3L). maybe if enough of us call them, they will change their backwards ways.

[Anonymous User]

mid stone. skipping eip. what are my options if i later want to go to a firm? do 2Ls get hired in spring oci, 3ls? what do people who strike out do for firm gigs?

don't skip it. why would you skip it

summer gig runs through mid-August (so during EIP) and want to get hired here after graduation. Don't want to go back to NYC two weeks early to interview for jobs I don't really want and risk looking bad here.

[jbagelboy]

mid stone. skipping eip. what are my options if i later want to go to a firm? do 2Ls get hired in spring oci, 3ls? what do people who strike out do for firm gigs?

don't skip it. why would you skip it

summer gig runs through mid-August (so during EIP) and want to get hired here after graduation. Don't want to go back to NYC two weeks early to interview for jobs I don't really want and risk looking bad here.

I have a lot of explanatory questions here, but I don't want to bother if you've already made up your mind. This feels short sighted unless you are die hard direct services/impact lit focused--in which case I'm not sure why you'd be asking about other ways to get firm jobs--but feel free to PM me if you want to talk it through.

[John_Luther1989]

Original anon here. I responded along the lines suggested, and got a message back from the firm that they called OCS, told them they want to interview me, and OCS told them they're not allowed to. So they're not going to do it.

Am I right to think it's really out of line for OCS to essentially veto a callback for me? Not only are they not helping me get a job, they're actively blocking me

this is so incredibly stupid. you should call OCS and complain. i feel like calling them myself to tell them how stupid they are (and i'm a 3L). maybe if enough of us call them, they will change their backwards ways.

OCS is a ludicrously shitty office and has 0% interest in helping individual students do what is best for them. Their sole interest is maxing employment rates. They don't care if every person ends up at some V5000 shop doing work outside any conceivable area of interest they have so long as they pay market. I have nothing but contempt for everyone in that office. Even the good people are tainted by association.

Non-exhaustive list of firms I know for a fact have interviewed people early in the last couple cycles:
Paul Weiss, Shearman, Cleary, Covington, Davis Polk, Debevoise, Latham, Kirkland, Cravath, Skadden, Cadwalader, Akin Gump, Schulte, Simpson, Weil, Wilkie, etc... If Petal was at all willing to bully firms the way she bullies students, she'd step up and do something to these firms, but she doesn't because she knows who she can and cannot fuck with.

Since you said it was a V10 shop, I'm guessing it's either Wachtell or SullCrom. They are acting incredibly soft. I would guess they might not give pre-EIP interviews as a matter of course, but then I'd assume they'd just say that instead of laying it off on Petal. If they are legit worried and think most other firms are calling Petal up and asking for permission to circumvent Petal's whole reason for existing, they're wrong. If they're that afraid, but also actually think they want you, they could at least offer you a direct-callback and just schedule it for after their screeners end.

[pa1901]

Firms can 100% see if you bid on them or not. I'm sure other upper-years can confirm this but this is pretty common knowledge. The real question is whether they can see where you bid them...

Interesting. Definitely wasn't common enough knowledge for me to know, but it's definitely more than possible I was just oblivious to that. I targeted a lot of non-NY offices so I didn't use the bottom of my bidlist for bids I knew would fail in order to say it later.

On another note, for upper-years that added screeners by going to the hospitality suite, did you notice any trend in success/failure in converting to CBs? I'm worried that since these are usually added at the end of the day you'll be tired and your interviewer will be tired and thats not an ideal equation.

Obviously anecdotal, but for me and the people I know who got EIP screeners via hospitality suites I think it almost always led to a CB. There's tons of factors that go into that and I could just be misremembering other peoples' experiences (or they could've just not shared about the times it didn't pan out).

In my experience even though they stayed late the interviewer seemed super upbeat. Maybe that's because they like that someone put in a little effort to grab an interview which shows you actually do care about their specific firm, or maybe it was just because the interviewer is a cool person.

[Anonymous User]

Original anon here. I responded along the lines suggested, and got a message back from the firm that they called OCS, told them they want to interview me, and OCS told them they're not allowed to. So they're not going to do it.

Am I right to think it's really out of line for OCS to essentially veto a callback for me? Not only are they not helping me get a job, they're actively blocking me

this is so incredibly stupid. you should call OCS and complain. i feel like calling them myself to tell them how stupid they are (and i'm a 3L). maybe if enough of us call them, they will change their backwards ways.

OCS is a ludicrously shitty office and has 0% interest in helping individual students do what is best for them. Their sole interest is maxing employment rates. They don't care if every person ends up at some V5000 shop doing work outside any conceivable area of interest they have so long as they pay market. I have nothing but contempt for everyone in that office. Even the good people are tainted by association.

Non-exhaustive list of firms I know for a fact have interviewed people early in the last couple cycles:
Paul Weiss, Shearman, Cleary, Covington, Davis Polk, Debevoise, Latham, Kirkland, Cravath, Skadden, Cadwalader, Akin Gump, Schulte, Simpson, Weil, Wilkie, etc... If Petal was at all willing to bully firms the way she bullies students, she'd step up and do something to these firms, but she doesn't because she knows who she can and cannot fuck with.

Since you said it was a V10 shop, I'm guessing it's either Wachtell or SullCrom. They are acting incredibly soft. I would guess they might not give pre-EIP interviews as a matter of course, but then I'd assume they'd just say that instead of laying it off on Petal. If they are legit worried and think most other firms are calling Petal up and asking for permission to circumvent Petal's whole reason for existing, they're wrong. If they're that afraid, but also actually think they want you, they could at least offer you a direct-callback and just schedule it for after their screeners end.

Original anon here. Firm was on your original list, but was a non-NY office so they may not have run into the specific situation of a CLS student trying to interview pre-EIP.

I spoke with OCS for a while yesterday, and while I am going to keep most of that conversation private, I did get some information that might be useful to people on here so I'm going to share it.

Apparently, the exception to this rule that you can't do screeners before EIP is that you can go interview if it's couched as an "informational interview." This is true, even if your request for an "informational interview" leads the firm to set up something essentially identical to a normal interview and even if that "informational interview" leads directly to an offer.

To me, this appears to be a distinction without a difference, and an exception that probably swallows the rule, but OCS sees them as two different things. So if you run into a situation where a firm tells you OCS won't let them interview you pre-EIP, you're on solid ground to tell them that they can bring you in for an informational interview, and that you would like to do that. Had I known this policy beforehand (I don't believe it's generally communicated to students), this might have gone down differently.

[Anonymous User]

Also if you have had ANY previous contact with a firm (going to a firm reception where you didn't talk to anyone is enough), then you are allowed to go interview

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

mid stone. skipping eip. what are my options if i later want to go to a firm? do 2Ls get hired in spring oci, 3ls? what do people who strike out do for firm gigs?

don't skip it. why would you skip it

summer gig runs through mid-August (so during EIP) and want to get hired here after graduation. Don't want to go back to NYC two weeks early to interview for jobs I don't really want and risk looking bad here.

Until you have a job, you don't have any business turning down job interviews. HTH

[Anonymous User]

Hey guys, I got some mass mail questions:

1) When mass mailing what do you attach? Just a resume and transcript, or a writing sample too?

2) If you're median, how likely is it to actually get something if you're mass mailing cold? Should I try to set up a coffee date with an associate at the firms I'm applying to before hand just so I have some sort of connection?

3) Cover letter goes in the email body, and it's shorter than a regular cover letter right?

5) Should I basically mm any firm I'm not bidding on?

4) What are some firms known for responding to mm?

5) How do you refer to the firm name in your email? Do you say the whole name (e.g. Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen, & Katz), or go by what most people refer to it as (Wachtell)?

[playwright]

If you have a Hamilton/Butler, do you specify that it is a full tuition/half tuition scholarship in your resume?
Have gotten conflicting advice about this--OCS said everyone knows what they are so you don't have to, but I've also heard that they are not that well known.

[Anonymous User]

If you have a Hamilton/Butler, do you specify that it is a full tuition/half tuition scholarship in your resume?
Have gotten conflicting advice about this--OCS said everyone knows what they are so you don't have to, but I've also heard that they are not that well known.

They will be well known at any firm you give a shit about getting a job at.

[smaug]

If you have a Hamilton/Butler, do you specify that it is a full tuition/half tuition scholarship in your resume?
Have gotten conflicting advice about this--OCS said everyone knows what they are so you don't have to, but I've also heard that they are not that well known.

They will be well known at any firm you give a shit about getting a job at.

Do firms give a shit about this at all? Color me surprised, especially if your 1L grades don't line up with expectations...

[Anonymous User]

Kent that missed law review, is this going to look weird/bad at EIP?

[Anonymous User]

Relax. It's not a problem. I had CBs at MTO, BSF, and W&C without being on LR.

[pinkiepie]

Relax. It's not a problem. I had CBs at MTO, BSF, and W&C without being on LR.

Can I assume this was with Kent-neighborhood GPA?

[jbagelboy]

You don't need law review for any firm from CLS. You're probably out with kozinski and garland but you weren't getting that anyway unless Gillian Metzger personally guaranteed you an interview.

[Anonymous User]

If you have a Hamilton/Butler, do you specify that it is a full tuition/half tuition scholarship in your resume?
Have gotten conflicting advice about this--OCS said everyone knows what they are so you don't have to, but I've also heard that they are not that well known.

They will be well known at any firm you give a shit about getting a job at.

Do firms give a shit about this at all? Color me surprised, especially if your 1L grades don't line up with expectations...

On the margins, yes.

[Anonymous User]

If you have a Hamilton/Butler, do you specify that it is a full tuition/half tuition scholarship in your resume?
Have gotten conflicting advice about this--OCS said everyone knows what they are so you don't have to, but I've also heard that they are not that well known.

My OCS advisor told me that it's fine either way, you can just have "____ Fellowship", or the longer "____ Fellowship (full/half-tuition merit scholarship)", and it's just personal preference. My thought is go ahead and add the parentheses, especially if you're interviewing with secondary markets where firms may not be as familiar with Columbia scholarships.

[Anonymous User]

Hey guys, what do you think of my bid list? I'm 3.37, only really interested in litigation, and trying to bid as safely as possible. The numbers in brackets are last years FFB.

1: (3) Proskaur Rose
2: (5) Hogan Lovells
3: (5) Kaye Schoeler
4: (8) Milibank
5: (9) Ropes & Gray
6: (11) Willkie
7: (12) Schulte
8: (12) Cahill Gordon
9: (14) Cadwalader
10: (14) Akin Gump
11: (16) Fried Frank
12: (18) Kramer Levin
13: (18) K&L Gates
14: (*) Shearman Sterling
15: (19) Orrick
16: (21) Hughs Hubbard
17: (21) Pilsbury
18: (23) Dechert
19: (23) Vinson Elkins
20: (24) Seward
21: (25) Stroock
22: (27) Hunton
23: (27) Simpson Thatcher
24: (27) Winston Strawn
25:
26: (*) McDermott
27: (29) Sheppard Mullen
28: (28) Haynes
29: (*) Bryan Cave
30:

[jbagelboy]

Hey guys, what do you think of my bid list? I'm 3.37, only really interested in litigation, and trying to bid as safely as possible. The numbers in brackets are last years FFB.

1: (3) Proskauer Rose
2: (5) Hogan Lovels
3: (5) Kaye Scholer
4: (8) Milbank
5: (9) Ropes & Gray
6: (11) Willkie
7: (12) Schulte
8: (12) Cahill Gordon
9: (14) Cadwalader
10: (14) Akin Gump
11: (16) Fried Frank
12: (18) Kramer Levin
13: (18) K&L Gates
14: (*) Shearman Sterling
15: (19) Orrick
16: (21) Hughs Hubbard
17: (21) Pilsbury
18: (23) Dechert
19: (23) Vinson Elkins
20: (24) Seward
21: (25) Stroock
22: (27) Hunton
23: (27) Simpson Thatcher
24: (27) Winston Strawn
25:
26: (*) McDermott
27: (29) Sheppard Mullen
28: (28) Haynes
29: (*) Bryan Cave
30:

I get that you're trying to play it safe, but I think you might be a little *too* safe here and you're leaving off some firms that you could definitely get offers from that might have better opportunities in new york than what you have here. Specifically, I might try to include Sidley, Paul Hastings, Jones Day, Perkins Coie, and Weil Gotschal. How to make room for them? I might kick Kaye Scholer and K&L Gates. See if you can squeeze a few of those guys in. Worst case, you bid them at the bottom and miss them and resume drop them saying you bid them and didn't get an interview.

[AdamDeMamp]

Kent that missed law review, is this going to look weird/bad at EIP?

Look nobody who matters gives a damn about CLR--not firms, not judges. RBG's latest CLS hire wasn't on CLR. None of the people Munger took from my year were on CLR. Etc.

[Anonymous User]

Kent that missed law review, is this going to look weird/bad at EIP?

Look nobody who matters gives a damn about CLR--not firms, not judges. RBG's latest CLS hire wasn't on CLR. None of the people Munger took from my year were on CLR. Etc.

true. what you need for the firms are grades and personality. what you need for the judges are professors. if you have the professors you're golden. CLR can help with that but there are other ways.