Biglawyers. Are any of you happy? Was this job better than others you've had? Forum

[Tls2016]

it seems ive made the wrong choice twice.. first accounting now law... on the other hand Ive only 2 friends, love money and have absolutely no hobbies. Will I make it past the first year?

How much sleep do you need?
Are you from NYC or whatever market you are working in?

[Anonymous User]

I don't think the hard part is the hours. If you like the people you work with then it can be fun to grind kinda like a much nerdier version of being on a sports team. The hard part is the requirement to turn in perfect work even when you can barely keep your eyes open.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Yeah I'm glad I don't do something like products liability work where doing a good job for your client might result in actual identifiable people getting fucked over in identifiable ways. Fundamentally commercial disputes are much more liberating.

I do it actually. Never really feel that bad tbh. I hate big bad businesses more so I rationalize it by saying at least I'm only fucking over 1 person rather than 100s every time I defend a bank in some shady shit it did.

Fair. Plenty of tort cases are bogus or trumped up too so it's not like it's black and white.

[Anonymous User]

I don't think the hard part is the hours. If you like the people you work with then it can be fun to grind kinda like a much nerdier version of being on a sports team. The hard part is the requirement to turn in perfect work even when you can barely keep your eyes open.

Many people in biglaw are just terrible people IMO, esp if they have stuck it out for awhile.

When I pull multiple 16+ hour days during the week, even if I get 6 hours of sleep or so, I still feel like shit by day 3/4.....and it's hard to turn decent work product. I think working continuously 12+ hour days straight on detail oriented shit is very tiring imo.

I also found it a lot easier to work 12+ hours straight continuously for days in a row when I was a first year (probably because I had loans). Now I'm a midlevel and find it harder to pull these hours continuously. Or maybe I'm just getting old.

But yeah, when I've done 12+ hour days doing something else (like moving apts/houses or physical stuff) I actually found it less draining in general.

[Anonymous User]

On the corporate side, its not the hours in and of themselves - I could function working 8am to 11pm, 5 or 6 days a week just fine - its the unpredictability of the hours, and the fact that an hour waiting for work does not equal a "billable hour" (the only hours that matter). When my MBB or Ibanking friends discuss hours worked, it is a simple conversion of hours in the office/client site/traveling = hours I worked...lawyer math is not as simple.

[Anonymous User]

On the corporate side, its not the hours in and of themselves - I could function working 8am to 11pm, 5 or 6 days a week just fine - its the unpredictability of the hours, and the fact that an hour waiting for work does not equal a "billable hour" (the only hours that matter). When my MBB or Ibanking friends discuss hours worked, it is a simple conversion of hours in the office/client site/traveling = hours I worked...lawyer math is not as simple.

You can turn in perfect work product working 8 am to 11 pm straight 5-6 days a week? (Like drafting/research/real work). Damn you must be partner material

I typically stay up until 2 am even when I'm not working (I average, even when not working, 6.5 hours of sleep a night), but turning in perfect work product after working 16 hour days is not that feasible if it's on a daily basis imo. Assuming my sleep stays constant at 6.5 hours, I just feel a lot more tired when I'm actually billing/working 16 hour days rather than just waiting in the office for 16 hours if that makes any sense.

I've seen some of the work that i-bankers have given us before, it's not exactly perfect....

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

On the corporate side, its not the hours in and of themselves - I could function working 8am to 11pm, 5 or 6 days a week just fine - its the unpredictability of the hours, and the fact that an hour waiting for work does not equal a "billable hour" (the only hours that matter). When my MBB or Ibanking friends discuss hours worked, it is a simple conversion of hours in the office/client site/traveling = hours I worked...lawyer math is not as simple.

You can turn in perfect work product working 8 am to 11 pm straight 5-6 days a week? (Like drafting/research/real work). Damn you must be partner material

I typically stay up until 2 am even when I'm not working (I average, even when not working, 6.5 hours of sleep a night), but turning in perfect work product after working 16 hour days is not that feasible if it's on a daily basis imo. Assuming my sleep stays constant at 6.5 hours, I just feel a lot more tired when I'm actually billing/working 16 hour days rather than just waiting in the office for 16 hours if that makes any sense.

I've seen some of the work that i-bankers have given us before, it's not exactly perfect....

Different poster, but that's the expectation and many people do. What makes it so difficult is it isn't only that turning in something with a typo after being at work for 80 or 90 hours consecutively gets you yelled at. It's that everyone else has worked for 80 or 90 hours consecutively, and would kill their first born child to get home to sleep, and because you did something that required an hour to clean up, everyone has to stay 91 hours instead of 90 hours because of you.

[Anonymous User]

On the corporate side, its not the hours in and of themselves - I could function working 8am to 11pm, 5 or 6 days a week just fine - its the unpredictability of the hours, and the fact that an hour waiting for work does not equal a "billable hour" (the only hours that matter). When my MBB or Ibanking friends discuss hours worked, it is a simple conversion of hours in the office/client site/traveling = hours I worked...lawyer math is not as simple.

You can turn in perfect work product working 8 am to 11 pm straight 5-6 days a week? (Like drafting/research/real work). Damn you must be partner material

I typically stay up until 2 am even when I'm not working (I average, even when not working, 6.5 hours of sleep a night), but turning in perfect work product after working 16 hour days is not that feasible if it's on a daily basis imo. Assuming my sleep stays constant at 6.5 hours, I just feel a lot more tired when I'm actually billing/working 16 hour days rather than just waiting in the office for 16 hours if that makes any sense.

I've seen some of the work that i-bankers have given us before, it's not exactly perfect....

Different poster, but that's the expectation and many people do. What makes it so difficult is it isn't only that turning in something with a typo after being at work for 80 or 90 hours consecutively gets you yelled at. It's that everyone else has worked for 80 or 90 hours consecutively, and would kill their first born child to get home to sleep, and because you did something that required an hour to clean up, everyone has to stay 91 hours instead of 90 hours because of you.

Ok, maybe it's because I'm not at a v10, but I wouldn't say "many" people turn in perfect work product working continuous 80-90 billable hour weeks....A lot of seniors do, and maybe midlevels but juniors are meh.

I'm a midlevel and have been around for awhile. I don't know if you guys think this is the norm or just an off week (unclear from posts), but I wouldn't say averaging 80 to 90 hour weeks is the norm either, except maybe at Wachtell. My first year I averaged like 55-60 hour billables a week, and even that's on the high end for NYC since it ends up being around 2600 billables a year.

Maybe you guys just need to switch firms. Are you guys all first years?

[Anonymous User]

On the corporate side, its not the hours in and of themselves - I could function working 8am to 11pm, 5 or 6 days a week just fine - its the unpredictability of the hours, and the fact that an hour waiting for work does not equal a "billable hour" (the only hours that matter). When my MBB or Ibanking friends discuss hours worked, it is a simple conversion of hours in the office/client site/traveling = hours I worked...lawyer math is not as simple.

You can turn in perfect work product working 8 am to 11 pm straight 5-6 days a week? (Like drafting/research/real work). Damn you must be partner material

I typically stay up until 2 am even when I'm not working (I average, even when not working, 6.5 hours of sleep a night), but turning in perfect work product after working 16 hour days is not that feasible if it's on a daily basis imo. Assuming my sleep stays constant at 6.5 hours, I just feel a lot more tired when I'm actually billing/working 16 hour days rather than just waiting in the office for 16 hours if that makes any sense.

I've seen some of the work that i-bankers have given us before, it's not exactly perfect....

Different poster, but that's the expectation and many people do. What makes it so difficult is it isn't only that turning in something with a typo after being at work for 80 or 90 hours consecutively gets you yelled at. It's that everyone else has worked for 80 or 90 hours consecutively, and would kill their first born child to get home to sleep, and because you did something that required an hour to clean up, everyone has to stay 91 hours instead of 90 hours because of you.

Ok, maybe it's because I'm not at a v10, but I wouldn't say "many" people turn in perfect work product working continuous 80-90 billable hour weeks....A lot of seniors do, and maybe midlevels but juniors are meh.

I'm a midlevel and have been around for awhile. I don't know if you guys think this is the norm or just an off week (unclear from posts), but I wouldn't say averaging 80 to 90 hour weeks is the norm either, except maybe at Wachtell. My first year I averaged like 55-60 hour billables a week, and even that's on the high end for NYC since it ends up being around 2600 billables a year.

Maybe you guys just need to switch firms. Are you guys all first years?

I don't think messing something up is that big a deal. Even if a partner yells at you and calls you an idiot, it's not because of you so much as it is someone being stressed and exhausted. I also don't think the person even remembers, because people are half-conscious on a lot of the all nighters, and only remember the general things: if you were pleasant and present. They remember the person who abandoned them at 10, not the person who had a typo. The challenging thing is knowing you kept everyone there later.

[Frayed Knot]

Genuine question: what sort of typo takes an hour to fix? Coming from a lit perspective, our typos look dumb but usually can be fixed in seconds (once they're noticed, anyway).

[dixiecupdrinking]

Genuine question: what sort of typo takes an hour to fix? Coming from a lit perspective, our typos look dumb but usually can be fixed in seconds (once they're noticed, anyway).

Yeah I think there is a lot of exaggeration going on here about just how bad and intense corporate work routinely is. No one is billing 90 hours a week on any sort of routine basis and no one is keeping a whole team of people up for an hour to fix a typo.

[Anonymous User]

Genuine question: what sort of typo takes an hour to fix? Coming from a lit perspective, our typos look dumb but usually can be fixed in seconds (once they're noticed, anyway).

Yeah I think there is a lot of exaggeration going on here about just how bad and intense corporate work routinely is. No one is billing 90 hours a week on any sort of routine basis and no one is keeping a whole team of people up for an hour to fix a typo.

It's not exaggeration as things take longer the longer I work. There's also a lot of inner frustration when you're used to always being smart and quick, and after a couple of days of no sleep you're literally dumb as a doornail and everyone else is just as smart as they were to begin with. You feel weak.

[Anonymous User]

How often are the corporate folks reamed out for a typo? As a litigator, I routinely notice typos in things that have gone (or have been reviewed and are about to go) to the other side, to the clients, and to the court. I would estimate 25-50% of documents that go out have a typo (to say nothing about formatting errors). And that's from a quick read. Plaintiffs' writing is even worse.

In general, I think legal writing is getting worse. I was reading a district court opinion the other day and it botched a quoted portion of another case so badly that the sentence was incomprehensible.

It sounds like corporate folks take more punishment for minor typos.

[Anonymous User]

Phone was off for 20 hours due to a blackout. Missed an e-mail asking for a doc late last night, and replied >12 hours later. Is this a hugely shitty move? My friend had went to the bagel shop this morning to charge her phone, but I slept in so I could've navigated around of it but didn't expect the email.

[Anonymous User]

I don't think I've seen any comments/stories from IP types in here. I guess bad bosses/co-workers can make any kind of law suck, but something like patent prosecution doesn't seem like it would lend itself to high stress and frequent fire drills. Just draft the applications, respond to the office actions from the PTO, don't blow deadlines, lather and repeat, right?

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Phone was off for 20 hours due to a blackout. Missed an e-mail asking for a doc late last night, and replied >12 hours later. Is this a hugely shitty move? My friend had went to the bagel shop this morning to charge her phone, but I slept in so I could've navigated around of it but didn't expect the email.

Hugely shitty? No. Medium shitty? Probably yes.

When I don't respond to emails for 5 hours, people freak out in biglaw....

[El Pollito]

Phone was off for 20 hours due to a blackout. Missed an e-mail asking for a doc late last night, and replied >12 hours later. Is this a hugely shitty move? My friend had went to the bagel shop this morning to charge her phone, but I slept in so I could've navigated around of it but didn't expect the email.

did they ask for it right away? if not then not really a big deal

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Phone was off for 20 hours due to a blackout. Missed an e-mail asking for a doc late last night, and replied >12 hours later. Is this a hugely shitty move? My friend had went to the bagel shop this morning to charge her phone, but I slept in so I could've navigated around of it but didn't expect the email.

did they ask for it right away? if not then not really a big deal

in biglaw, the default is ASAP, especially since this task requires very little work

[zot1]

I think I need a biglaw job.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

I think I need a biglaw job.

You should get one - it will make you appreciate most other office jobs out there much more.

It makes me laugh that 0Ls still gun for biglaw....this year at my firm we had a bunch of first years leave already (after one year) and apparently a bunch of the new first years (only been here a couple of months) are looking for other jobs. You can't even stay for more than a couple of months? PUSSIES.

[Tls2016]

I think I need a biglaw job.

You should get one - it will make you appreciate most other office jobs out there much more.

It makes me laugh that 0Ls still gun for biglaw....this year at my firm we had a bunch of first years leave already (after one year) and apparently a bunch of the new first years (only been here a couple of months) are looking for other jobs. You can't even stay for more than a couple of months? PUSSIES.

The saddest part is that people go deeply into debt to get biglaw.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

I think I need a biglaw job.

You should get one - it will make you appreciate most other office jobs out there much more.

It makes me laugh that 0Ls still gun for biglaw....this year at my firm we had a bunch of first years leave already (after one year) and apparently a bunch of the new first years (only been here a couple of months) are looking for other jobs. You can't even stay for more than a couple of months? PUSSIES.

The saddest part is that people go deeply into debt to get biglaw.

We had a summer last year who told us associates that they were going to have 300k debt by the time they started repayment.....this person is completely fucked. At that point, he should just do non profit and do PLSF. I don't think a lot of newbie biglawyers realize how comparatively little debt more senior associates took out (and how many rich kids there are in law in the first place whose parents pay). Most of us associates wouldn't have gone to law school at all if we had to take out $300k debt.

[zot1]

I think I need a biglaw job.

You should get one - it will make you appreciate most other office jobs out there much more.

It makes me laugh that 0Ls still gun for biglaw....this year at my firm we had a bunch of first years leave already (after one year) and apparently a bunch of the new first years (only been here a couple of months) are looking for other jobs. You can't even stay for more than a couple of months? PUSSIES.

The saddest part is that people go deeply into debt to get biglaw.

We had a summer last year who told us associates that they were going to have 300k debt by the time they started repayment.....this person is completely fucked. At that point, he should just do non profit and do PLSF. I don't think a lot of newbie biglawyers realize how comparatively little debt more senior associates took out (and how many rich kids there are in law in the first place whose parents pay). Most of us associates wouldn't have gone to law school at all if we had to take out $300k debt.

I got into a lot of debt and not for biglaw

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

I think I need a biglaw job.

You should get one - it will make you appreciate most other office jobs out there much more.

It makes me laugh that 0Ls still gun for biglaw....this year at my firm we had a bunch of first years leave already (after one year) and apparently a bunch of the new first years (only been here a couple of months) are looking for other jobs. You can't even stay for more than a couple of months? PUSSIES.

The saddest part is that people go deeply into debt to get biglaw.

We had a summer last year who told us associates that they were going to have 300k debt by the time they started repayment.....this person is completely fucked. At that point, he should just do non profit and do PLSF. I don't think a lot of newbie biglawyers realize how comparatively little debt more senior associates took out (and how many rich kids there are in law in the first place whose parents pay). Most of us associates wouldn't have gone to law school at all if we had to take out $300k debt.

I got into a lot of debt and not for biglaw

Well you probably won't have a tax bomb if you're on PLSF right?

I don't think most of us would've taken on the same amount of debt if we could redo life, but at least with non-profit/gov work, you don't have a tax bomb.

If that summer I was talking about stays in biglaw - he's going to owe like 700k or something ridiculous by the time his debt is "wiped out" and he will have to pay a tax bomb on that if he uses IBR. Alternative is him paying it off - it will take like 5-7 years to get to net worth zero.