2011 Top 50 Go-To Law Schools Forum

[ndirish2010]

I am surprised that we did not take as big of a hit as UIUC and WUSTL did. Seeing that almost 24% number almost made me happy.

Yeah I was shocked. I never hear ND mentioned on TLS but they outplaced a lot of other peer schools...

We're a small school so that is probably why, but I think we do have slightly more regional flexibility than Illinois and that helped us only lose about 3.5%. As for comparing to WUSTL, I have no idea. I was surprised they fell under 20%.

[Helmholtz]

I am surprised that we did not take as big of a hit as UIUC and WUSTL did. Seeing that almost 24% number almost made me happy.

Yeah I was shocked. I never hear ND mentioned on TLS but they outplaced a lot of other peer schools...

ND has Touchdown Jesus on their side.

[mst]

Summary of this thread: NLJ releases data. Students go too far in making assumptions on data.

NYU's drop could very likely be associated with its huge PI schtick. 70+ in PI (in positions that generally are good enough for biglaw placement) makes a big difference in %, and honestly if you had the choice of chasing big-law with a probability of being no-offered or deferred and then being let go in a few years regardless vs pursuing notable PI with one of the most generous LRAP's in existence, which would you choose? Columbia & Chicago just don't attact the same kind of PI-leaning folks, nor do they place as well into PI, as NYU. When you combine NYU's PI & NLJ250 numbers you get numbers comparable or better than Chicago's and Columbia's, assuming their prestigious PI placement is not nearly as high as NYU's (a leap of faith has to be made here, but I don't think it's an unreasonable one).

And to the person who suggested that those who place into PI are just no-offers, you're probably wrong. A good portion of those positions are extremely competitive and I don't think I'm going too far by suggesting they could probably have gotten solid SA's + offers had that been their preference.

Somehow people can look at Yale and Harvard and see their low numbers and be perfectly fine suggesting their people self-select out of big law, yet they can't look at a school like NYU... one of, if not THE premiere PI schools in the country... and assume that this is just that school's way of responding to a shitty economy 1-2 years ago.

Duke? Cornell? What about those 2? Vandy also. NYU may have a rep as one of the best PI schools but...

If I had to take a guess, and this is just a guess, here it goes:

1)Duke & Cornell both have small classes. A difference of 20 students is 10%. Just a few firms with close ties hiring-wise to the schools can make or break it depending on their personal circumstances. Not the same case as with the other programs which have much larger student bodies.
2)Pretend your a firm. You have all types of attorneys in your firm from all different schools. When you go to do your hiring, you still need to keep pulling from everyone's schools. You can cut down your numbers a bit for each school, but you can't just get rid of a school completely (or, at least, the pressure to not do so would be significantly higher). This kind of basic human response automatically favors the small, national/regional schools relative to the bigger schools. This doesn't explain huge rises, but it does explain smaller declines at such schools.

[09042014]

The take away lesson from this is that the views of hiring partners at biglaw firms change every year. There's no doubt that biglaw firms decided that they would like Cornell more this year and Northwestern less. I was talking to a biglaw partner last June who really wasn't a fan of Georgetown. Guess what. By August, he had changed his mind and loved them. Reason? None. That's what makes this tricky. The key is to recognize this fickleness and predict how their emotions are going to swing the year you do OCI hiring.

175

[09042014]

Summary of this thread: NLJ releases data. Students go too far in making assumptions on data.

NYU's drop could very likely be associated with its huge PI schtick. 70+ in PI (in positions that generally are good enough for biglaw placement) makes a big difference in %, and honestly if you had the choice of chasing big-law with a probability of being no-offered or deferred and then being let go in a few years regardless vs pursuing notable PI with one of the most generous LRAP's in existence, which would you choose? Columbia & Chicago just don't attact the same kind of PI-leaning folks, nor do they place as well into PI, as NYU. When you combine NYU's PI & NLJ250 numbers you get numbers comparable or better than Chicago's and Columbia's, assuming their prestigious PI placement is not nearly as high as NYU's (a leap of faith has to be made here, but I don't think it's an unreasonable one).

I was considering a reason like that. And many times group think happens in campuses. All it takes if for a bunch of NYU 3Ls talking about how big law is failing, and there are tons of lay offs. 5% of their class doing this would explain most of the big gap.

[showNprove]

NYU was a premier PI school before the recession, too, but that didn't stop it from placing nearly 70% into the NLJ250. Why weren't more students passing up biglaw opportunities then? The NYU refrain is that its students are turning down biglaw for PI because biglaw is too risky now, when it could easily be that more students are being forced into PI because they can't get biglaw.

Edit (for clarification): I don't know which is true, and I'm not ruling out a greater focus towards PI. I think a 7% drop while other NYC-centric schools are rising is evidence of more than just a greater preference for PI, though.

I don't think this year's data says much, but what it does say is that NYU had a problem with its C/O 2010. With that being said, NYU will probably be back up close to 50% next year.

[Magnificent]

Summary of this thread: NLJ releases data. Students go too far in making assumptions on data.

NYU's drop could very likely be associated with its huge PI schtick. 70+ in PI (in positions that generally are good enough for biglaw placement) makes a big difference in %, and honestly if you had the choice of chasing big-law with a probability of being no-offered or deferred and then being let go in a few years regardless vs pursuing notable PI with one of the most generous LRAP's in existence, which would you choose? Columbia & Chicago just don't attact the same kind of PI-leaning folks, nor do they place as well into PI, as NYU. When you combine NYU's PI & NLJ250 numbers you get numbers comparable or better than Chicago's and Columbia's, assuming their prestigious PI placement is not nearly as high as NYU's (a leap of faith has to be made here, but I don't think it's an unreasonable one).

And to the person who suggested that those who place into PI are just no-offers, you're probably wrong. A good portion of those positions are extremely competitive and I don't think I'm going too far by suggesting they could probably have gotten solid SA's + offers had that been their preference.

Somehow people can look at Yale and Harvard and see their low numbers and be perfectly fine suggesting their people self-select out of big law, yet they can't look at a school like NYU... one of, if not THE premiere PI schools in the country... and assume that this is just that school's way of responding to a shitty economy 1-2 years ago.

then explain why NYU fell more ITE compared to Chicago and Columbia?

they used to almost 70+% in biglaw during '07 like Chicago and Columbia....but now have fallen alot more than the other 2

are you suggesting that NYU students the past 2 years have just gotten more PI conscious than NYU students of the past.....and if so then why can't the same be true of Columbia and Chicago students

men lie....women lie.....numbers don't

the numbers show that almost every school has taken a big fall since the meltdown.........the numbers also show that NYU has fallen more steeply than its supposed peers Chicago and Columbia

as a result we have two option

a) NYU just isn't as good as Columbia or Chicago when it comes to placement outside NYC

or

b) your theory


I'll go with option A because option B requires unsubstantiated assumptions. And as Occam's razor says, the simplest explanation is usually the right one.

[09042014]

NYU was a premier PI school before the recession, too, but that didn't stop it from placing nearly 70% into the NLJ250. Why weren't more students passing up biglaw opportunities then? The NYU refrain is that its students are turning down biglaw for PI because biglaw is too risky now, when it could easily be that more students are being forced into PI because they can't get biglaw.

Because in 2009 big law careers looked short and bleak. People were having start dates pushed back at least a year, first years were being laid off.

A lot of PI folks end up doing big law, it wouldn't be surprising that in 2009, the big money lure of big law wasn't enough for more people than average.

OCI for class of 2011 at NYU was virtually the same as at Columbia.

Whatever caused the gap in placement, it's not caused by firms thinking NYU is lesser than columbia and chicago.

[Kobe_Teeth]

Outside the top 20, if you passed up a siginifcantly sized scholly to attend a T1, you might be feeling kinda silly right now.

[mst]

[quote="showNprove"]Edit (for clarification): I don't know which is true, and I'm not ruling out a greater focus towards PI. I think a 7% drop while other NYC-centric schools are rising is evidence of more than just a greater preference for PI, though./quote]

I think it's a bit of both to be honest. But folks, NYU has been ranked as a top 5 law school nearly every year for the last decade. Think what you want about the rankings but that's a mix of amazing students, professors, and reputation, and to some extent you can probably conclude it's true, or you have a stick up your ass against the school. Combine that probable fact with almost every first-hand report on OCI and firm hiring and incoming class data on this and other forums that suggests that NYU is getting offered and/or placed at or above levels seen by CC and it brings the usefulness of these outdated NLJ figures into a much different light.

[FiveSermon]

Edit (for clarification): I don't know which is true, and I'm not ruling out a greater focus towards PI. I think a 7% drop while other NYC-centric schools are rising is evidence of more than just a greater preference for PI, though./quote]

I think it's a bit of both to be honest. But folks, NYU has been ranked as a top 5 law school nearly every year for the last decade. Think what you want about the rankings but that's a mix of amazing students, professors, and reputation, and to some extent you can probably conclude it's true, or you have a stick up your ass against the school. Combine that probable fact with almost every first-hand report on OCI and firm hiring and incoming class data on this and other forums that suggests that NYU is getting offered and/or placed at or above levels seen by CC and it brings the usefulness of these outdated NLJ figures into a much different light.

Dammit. Does this mean Cornell is back to being cast off with Georgetown? Or can they claim it's rank among MVPN

[mst]

are you suggesting that NYU students the past 2 years have just gotten more PI conscious than NYU students of the past.....and if so then why can't the same be true of Columbia and Chicago students.

yeah, thats exactly what i'm suggesting. if you know anything about the t6/14/etc, you probably know nyu has a very, very distinct edge in PI... or at least a distinct edge in marketing towards those students. it's VERY likely that a student interested in PI would choose NYU over any other t10 aside from HYS, or even HS given enough money. it's really not that complicated.

[mst]

Edit (for clarification): I don't know which is true, and I'm not ruling out a greater focus towards PI. I think a 7% drop while other NYC-centric schools are rising is evidence of more than just a greater preference for PI, though./quote]

I think it's a bit of both to be honest. But folks, NYU has been ranked as a top 5 law school nearly every year for the last decade. Think what you want about the rankings but that's a mix of amazing students, professors, and reputation, and to some extent you can probably conclude it's true, or you have a stick up your ass against the school. Combine that probable fact with almost every first-hand report on OCI and firm hiring and incoming class data on this and other forums that suggests that NYU is getting offered and/or placed at or above levels seen by CC and it brings the usefulness of these outdated NLJ figures into a much different light.

Dammit. Does this mean Cornell is back to being cast off with Georgetown? Or can they claim it's rank among MVPN

While I don't think Cornell can claim to somehow be in league with MVP again (just because reputation doesn't change as quickly as NLJ stats do...sorry cornell), this does offer evidence that, for now at least... we can start calling it the t13 instead of the t12.

[FiveSermon]

Edit (for clarification): I don't know which is true, and I'm not ruling out a greater focus towards PI. I think a 7% drop while other NYC-centric schools are rising is evidence of more than just a greater preference for PI, though./quote]

I think it's a bit of both to be honest. But folks, NYU has been ranked as a top 5 law school nearly every year for the last decade. Think what you want about the rankings but that's a mix of amazing students, professors, and reputation, and to some extent you can probably conclude it's true, or you have a stick up your ass against the school. Combine that probable fact with almost every first-hand report on OCI and firm hiring and incoming class data on this and other forums that suggests that NYU is getting offered and/or placed at or above levels seen by CC and it brings the usefulness of these outdated NLJ figures into a much different light.

Dammit. Does this mean Cornell is back to being cast off with Georgetown? Or can they claim it's rank among MVPN

While I don't think Cornell can claim to somehow be in league with MVP again (just because reputation doesn't change as quickly as NLJ stats do...sorry cornell), this does offer evidence that, for now at least... we can start calling it the t13 instead of the t12.

Oh well. As long as NLJ stats gives Cornell the same or better placement to MVP it's ok. Pre ITE it seemed liked it anyways (from the class of 2008) but you are probably right that prestige wise it's harder to change perceptions.

[gwuorbust]

Tulane 11.51%

well I'm fucked. but then I guess we already knew this.

[fatduck]

Tulane 11.51%

well I'm fucked. but then I guess we already knew this.

You can round up to 12, though!

[09042014]

While I don't think Cornell can claim to somehow be in league with MVP again (just because reputation doesn't change as quickly as NLJ stats do...sorry cornell), this does offer evidence that, for now at least... we can start calling it the t13 instead of the t12.

Cornell has always had placement equal to that of MVP.

In fact MVPBDNC have always been equal for at least the last 6 or so years. There is a fair amount of variance, but they are within the margin of error of each other.

The schools have their strengths and weaknesses.

[gwuorbust]

Tulane 11.51%

well I'm fucked. but then I guess we already knew this.

You can round up to 12, though!

so at the 42% percentile I'm only 30% away!!!

[fatduck]

Tulane 11.51%

well I'm fucked. but then I guess we already knew this.

You can round up to 12, though!

so at the 42% percentile I'm only 30% away!!!

don't worry i'm sure everyone else just self-selected into PI

[Magnificent]

are you suggesting that NYU students the past 2 years have just gotten more PI conscious than NYU students of the past.....and if so then why can't the same be true of Columbia and Chicago students.

yeah, thats exactly what i'm suggesting. if you know anything about the t6/14/etc, you probably know nyu has a very, very distinct edge in PI... or at least a distinct edge in marketing towards those students. it's VERY likely that a student interested in PI would choose NYU over any other t10 aside from HYS, or even HS given enough money. it's really not that complicated.

you seem to be missing my point

even if NYU students are more interested in PI than CLS and UChi students

it still doesn't explain the drop from pre ITE to now in relation to CLS and UChi

if your answer is that more NYU students went to PI than before cause they were scared of getting no-offered by biglaw.....then why can't the same be true of CLS and UChi students???

I mean that is the part that doesn't compute for me. Its an assumption without evidence. Also wouldn't PI position also have felt the pinch of hiring ITE. What makes you think that there are even the SAME NUMBER of PI positions available to NYU students in the first place let alone this substantial increase in NYU PI students that you are assuming.

There is just a little too much assuming for me that is going on.

Maybe the real world doesn't fall in line with the made up HYS....CCN.....MVPBNDCG world of TLS? Just maybe...

[gwuorbust]

don't worry i'm sure everyone else just self-selected into PI

that must be the answer!!! It couldn't be that there are too many legal graduates for too few legal jobs . . .

[fatduck]

are you suggesting that NYU students the past 2 years have just gotten more PI conscious than NYU students of the past.....and if so then why can't the same be true of Columbia and Chicago students.

yeah, thats exactly what i'm suggesting. if you know anything about the t6/14/etc, you probably know nyu has a very, very distinct edge in PI... or at least a distinct edge in marketing towards those students. it's VERY likely that a student interested in PI would choose NYU over any other t10 aside from HYS, or even HS given enough money. it's really not that complicated.

you seem to be missing my point

even if NYU students are more interested in PI than CLS and UChi students

it still doesn't explain the drop from pre ITE to now in relation to CLS and UChi

if your answer is that more NYU students went to PI than before cause they were scared of getting no-offered by biglaw.....then why can't the same be true of CLS and UChi students???

I mean that is the part that doesn't compute for me. Its an assumption without evidence. Also wouldn't PI position also have felt the pinch of hiring ITE. What makes you think that there are even the SAME NUMBER of PI positions available to NYU students in the first place let alone this substantial increase in NYU PI students that you are assuming.

There is just a little too much assuming for me that is going on.

Maybe the real world doesn't fall in line with the made up HYS....CCN.....MVPBNDCG world of TLS? Just maybe...

this post becomes so much more interesting when you realize it's coming from the same poster that doesn't think Jones Day qualifies as biglaw

[fatduck]

don't worry i'm sure everyone else just self-selected into PI

that must be the answer!!! It couldn't be that there are too many legal graduates for too few legal jobs . . .

i heard the government is going to start a federal law firm that will hire all the unemployed lawyers.

[mst]

if your answer is that more NYU students went to PI than before cause they were scared of getting no-offered by biglaw.....then why can't the same be true of CLS and UChi students???\

it can be but it's probably less likely. when you:

1)recruit students with more of a PI focus or on the fence about it

AND

2)you have more PI opportunities being pushed at the students

AND

3)a much larger percentage of your social network is aiming towards PI to begin with

AND

4)you have an awesome lrap

(all of which is true at nyu over cls or uc)

your students could very well be more inclined to choose the PI route if they're on the fence with biglaw in comparison to CC.

[gwuorbust]

don't worry i'm sure everyone else just self-selected into PI

that must be the answer!!! It couldn't be that there are too many legal graduates for too few legal jobs . . .

i heard the government is going to start a federal law firm that will hire all the unemployed lawyers.

I wonder what kind of bonuses the bird law department will give. . .