School OCI Data Forum

[peterstein]

100% preselects are far more of a joke ITE. At least with a lottery there's a scintilla of a chance.

At least with preselects you know you aren't gargantually fucked if you get preselected, just immensely. With lottery you're still gargantually fucked no matter what.

This doesn't make any sense.

By which I mean, with preselects at least you know the employer has some interest in you. Like, enough interest to interview you and not some other schmuck. With the lottery, you have no idea. Could be the employer doesn't give a flying fuck who you are and why you want to work there, you just don't know.

[270910]

100% preselects are far more of a joke ITE. At least with a lottery there's a scintilla of a chance.

At least with preselects you know you aren't gargantually fucked if you get preselected, just immensely. With lottery you're still gargantually fucked no matter what.

This doesn't make any sense.

+1. Also, I love the fact that the user felt the need to register to make that nonsensical post.

In other news, neither lottery nor pre-select systems are very good, especially when students are kept in the dark about hiring trends. It's almost too easy to criticize the systematic flaws of each. And hybrids can sometimes even net you the worst of both worlds.

[bwv812]

.

[shmoo597]

I really can't believe this. 8 interviews per student at GULC? vs 15+ at the t10? Horrific.

[1ferret!]

Pepperdine: 357 slots...not including the Govt positions of course...we get a crack at those next week.
About 4 looking for 3Ls for fall semester positions
Some multiple offices for the bigger firms included
about 30 2L fall internships
The rest are 2L SAs although some are Los Angeles firms doing office interviews rather than on campus.
Lots of the big guys doin resume collect (Skadden, Sullivan, Cravath et al.)
On campus Gibson Dunn, Latham, White Case, Bryan Cave etc, but a lot of local midsize and smaller guys 25-100 atty offices

[let/them/eat/cake]

I really can't believe this. 8 interviews per student at GULC? vs 15+ at the t10? Horrific.

do u think they would tell everybody at GULC 6-10? even with 100% lottery system, isn't it possible that because of distributions of firm types and interview slots at different firms that it's more difficult for someone lower on the GPA ladder to get the interviews higher on their list than it would be for someone higher up the GPA ladder (the idea being there's more people clumped right above median and the people below median all bidding on the same shit, while the people above that are bidding on a slightly different set of--).

shit, man, i'm just trying to find a way to explain 6-10 per at GULC.....

[doomed123]

I really can't believe this. 8 interviews per student at GULC? vs 15+ at the t13? Horrific.

Fixed, because apparently Cornell students are also getting 15 interviews.

Maybe the T13 trolls were right.

[bwv812]

.

[Anonymous User]

Those with better GPAs probably should be getting more interviews, but you also shouldn't underestimate the irrationality of bidding here: last year 400 people bid on Skadden (which was one of the largest interviewers with 120 slots). Most of the other more selective firms generally receive 90-180 bids (though it's possible that only Skadden allowed 3L bidding last year, inflating their numbers), so they probably don't need to bid them as high... but unless people bid their safeties high, they are unlikely to score many interviews with them through the lottery.

For those limited to less selective firms, there were 736 bids on Bryan Cave's 40 slots (this must include 3L bids, which makes the bid stats much less helpful), 691 bids on Holland & Knight's 20 slots, 502 bids on Alston's 20 slots, and 527 bids on Nixon's 40 slots. With odds like that, 50 bids are useless.

Well, it's important to remember that you can use multi bids on a single firm.

[09042014]

I really can't believe this. 8 interviews per student at GULC? vs 15+ at the t13? Horrific.

Fixed, because apparently Cornell students are also getting 15 interviews.

Maybe the T13 trolls were right.

Thank you for this.

[270910]

I really can't believe this. 8 interviews per student at GULC? vs 15+ at the t13? Horrific.

Fixed, because apparently Cornell students are also getting 15 interviews.

Maybe the T14 trolls were wrong.

Thank you for this.

Fixed.

[09042014]

I really can't believe this. 8 interviews per student at GULC? vs 15+ at the t13? Horrific.

Fixed, because apparently Cornell students are also getting 15 interviews.

Maybe the T14 trolls were wrong.

Thank you for this.

Fixed.

Nefarious Vandy trolling?

[270910]

Vandy trolling? How does that even make sense?

[let/them/eat/cake]

I really can't believe this. 8 interviews per student at GULC? vs 15+ at the t13? Horrific.

Fixed, because apparently Cornell students are also getting 15 interviews.

Maybe the T14 trolls were wrong.

Thank you for this.

Fixed.

lol that's funny. i dont know if anyone at GULC ran the math but isn't there a possibility GULC's CSO is just being overly pessimistic to cover their asses? or is this a situation where large class size compounds the problem over less slots available this year and irrational bidding strategies?

good news! I just this moment snagged another interview today through an open slot on symplicity. 17 so far. hopefully get a couple more by hitting some firms with some email and coverletters/hitting the signup sheets and hospitality suites early on Job Fair Days. anyone can do those things though. still pretty happy about how it shook out from bidding. never thought the lottery would work this well. better to be lucky than good.

[miamiman]

In light of the recent arguments in favor of preselects, can anyone make a case for the pure lottery systems?

[rayiner]

In light of the recent arguments in favor of preselects, can anyone make a case for the pure lottery systems?

It depends on the state of the economy. Even when the economy is good, firms aren't going to preselect people that are, say, below median. But in a good economy firms will likely hire a bunch of below-median people to fill out their summer classes if they're put in front of them via the lottery.

When you're drowning in interview slots, like the T14 used to be (NU had an average of 21-22 interviews/student in 2008) then it makes sense to spread them out so you can hit those 70-80% biglaw placement numbers.

[miamiman]

In light of the recent arguments in favor of preselects, can anyone make a case for the pure lottery systems?

It depends on the state of the economy. Even when the economy is good, firms aren't going to preselect people that are, say, below median. But in a good economy firms will likely hire a bunch of below-median people to fill out their summer classes if they're put in front of them via the lottery.

When you're drowning in interview slots, like the T14 used to be (NU had an average of 21-22 interviews/student in 2008) then it makes sense to spread them out so you can hit those 70-80% biglaw placement numbers.

Right. OK.

[sbalive]

In light of the recent arguments in favor of preselects, can anyone make a case for the pure lottery systems?

It depends on the state of the economy. Even when the economy is good, firms aren't going to preselect people that are, say, below median. But in a good economy firms will likely hire a bunch of below-median people to fill out their summer classes if they're put in front of them via the lottery.

When you're drowning in interview slots, like the T14 used to be (NU had an average of 21-22 interviews/student in 2008) then it makes sense to spread them out so you can hit those 70-80% biglaw placement numbers.

Right. OK.

I think the entire system sucks enough that the difference between preselects & lottery is marginal. If you have a fat, soft curve (i.e. no-grading or grade inflation) then I think the lottery makes a lot of sense. It works if students have some minimal information about selectivity of firms, then they can take that into account in bidding. It works for the firms because instead of analyzing the resumes and GPAs of 350 people who might bid on a slot, they just look at the 40 or so who actually do get slots. It works for you as a student, because it gives you a chance to flesh out the resume and have a chance that you might get if the firm were to have to throw up its hands and just arbitrarily sort bidders according to GPA or whatever.

[RVP11]

In light of the recent arguments in favor of preselects, can anyone make a case for the pure lottery systems?

It depends on the state of the economy. Even when the economy is good, firms aren't going to preselect people that are, say, below median. But in a good economy firms will likely hire a bunch of below-median people to fill out their summer classes if they're put in front of them via the lottery.

UVA did pure pre-select in the good times and it didn't seem to harm people below median. UVA's placement wasn't any worse than peer schools'. Firms were just that hungry for T14 but now they don't have to dip nearly as low to get their fill.

ITE, I think UVA might have stumbled on the magic formula - some mix of pre-select and "Top 5." The lottery needs to be scrapped though.

[como]

good news! I just this moment snagged another interview today through an open slot on symplicity. 17 so far. hopefully get a couple more by hitting some firms with some email and coverletters/hitting the signup sheets and hospitality suites early on Job Fair Days. anyone can do those things though. still pretty happy about how it shook out from bidding. never thought the lottery would work this well. better to be lucky than good.

How's it feel to lie and get called out on the internet?

[lawschoollll]

Can someone explain to me the differences between pure pre-select and lottery?

[let/them/eat/cake]

good news! I just this moment snagged another interview today through an open slot on symplicity. 17 so far. hopefully get a couple more by hitting some firms with some email and coverletters/hitting the signup sheets and hospitality suites early on Job Fair Days. anyone can do those things though. still pretty happy about how it shook out from bidding. never thought the lottery would work this well. better to be lucky than good.

How's it feel to lie and get called out on the internet?

7 + 4(after picking up one today with Dechert) + 6 = 17.

perhaps i told you i had 6 on the first day but i was (pleasantly) mistaken.

also, 4 letters: B-O-A-T.

[270910]

Can someone explain to me the differences between pure pre-select and lottery?

pre-select: You choose what employers to bid on. Employers look at the credentials of everyone who bid and chooses who to interview with.

lottery: You choose what employers to bid on. Without regard to your credentials, an algorithim assigns interviews based on student preference.

Most top / fancy / national schools use lottery systems. Most schools in The Abyss use a pure pre-select system. In between it is murkier, and schools all have slight variations.

For the record, UVA has never been pure pre-select. It was 80/20 pre-select/lottery before last year, and had a much more nuanced lottery system where you could weight bids.

And both systems have pros and cons, largely depending on school and current economic strength. It goes without saying that pre-select (heavy) systems favor the top of the class while lottery systems are more advantageous to those around the middle of the class or lower.

[doyleoil]

Since interview slots seem to be the new data-point rage (and since I was bored at work), I ran the numbers for U. Chicago - including all employers (there are a handful of government agencies and p.i. places), there are 4,042 interview slots.

At approx. 200 students, that's about 20/student.

[let/them/eat/cake]

Cornell: 3320, at ~200 students, that's ~16.6/student.

However, that includes interview slots for all recruiting "events". so not just the 3 day AJF in NYC.