How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner? Forum

[BlueLotus]

moot court is a waste of time

i sure hope you're right for my sake, lol. will be volunteering my ass off with real clients this semester.

[jess]

.

[BlueLotus]

Do it. I was asked about moot court during all my interviews.

one clarification though on my question: i meant is moot court better than mock trial or mock trial better than court moot or does that not matter?

If we're talking school activities, then clinic with trial experience > mock trial > moot court > journal.

how about clinics v. externships you arrange on your own?

[jess]

.

[Anonymous User]

would not doing mock trial during 1L hurt?

[xChiTowNx]

Do it. I was asked about moot court during all my interviews.

one clarification though on my question: i meant is moot court better than mock trial or mock trial better than court moot or does that not matter?

If we're talking school activities, then clinic with trial experience > mock trial > moot court > journal.

@Tanicius: Thanks for the post - very insightful.

From a PD standpoint, should I register for my school's only legal clinic, which is civil, or register for an externship next semester with a county PD/ Fed PD office? I know the Fed PD is different beast, but externship spots and nearby PD offices are limited.

Thanks in advance.

[Anonymous User]

How I'd rank those options:

1. Local PD.
2a. Fed PD.
2b. Civil clinic.

I'd do the Fed PD if (1) I could get credit for it or (2) if I could work directly with clients on misdemeanor cases. If neither (1) or (2) are possible, I'd go for the civil clinic.

[encore1101]

moot court is a waste of time

Disagree. Moot court, more than mock trial or even some clinics/externships, will teach you how to write and argue a legal (i.e. Fourth Amendment) issue. I interned at a DA's Office Appeals Bureau and I can't tell you how many bad motions by trial attorneys I read.

Additionally, appeals is a pretty niche area of practice, especially in the DA/PD's office, but a necessary one. A GOOD DA's Office will get a class of hirees that are a good mix of trial attorneys and appellate attorneys.

Mock trial will undoubtedly give you more cred in the earlier rounds of an interview, where the interviewers are most likely to be line attorneys, but I wouldn't discount the value of moot court so readily.

[BlueLotus]

moot court is a waste of time

Disagree. Moot court, more than mock trial or even some clinics/externships, will teach you how to write and argue a legal (i.e. Fourth Amendment) issue. I interned at a DA's Office Appeals Bureau and I can't tell you how many bad motions by trial attorneys I read.

Additionally, appeals is a pretty niche area of practice, especially in the DA/PD's office, but a necessary one. A GOOD DA's Office will get a class of hirees that are a good mix of trial attorneys and appellate attorneys.

Mock trial will undoubtedly give you more cred in the earlier rounds of an interview, where the interviewers are most likely to be line attorneys, but I wouldn't discount the value of moot court so readily.

Thanks! A lot of differing perspectives. I guess I have a tough decision to make in a few weeks! (though, I confess I was leaning towards civil legal aid than PD)

[sd5289]

Thanks! A lot of differing perspectives. I guess I have a tough decision to make in a few weeks! (though, I confess I was leaning towards civil legal aid than PD)

Why not do both? I don't mean currently, but (assuming you're a 2L since you're in the 2L thread) do one now and one next year. I do think that if you have to choose, practical experience wins every time, but that doesn't mean doing moot court on top of it is going to hurt you. It only has the potential to help, especially if you've got a former moot courter as an interviewer who wants to relive his/her glory days in that moot court room...

[adonai]

Thanks! A lot of differing perspectives. I guess I have a tough decision to make in a few weeks! (though, I confess I was leaning towards civil legal aid than PD)

Why not do both? I don't mean currently, but (assuming you're a 2L since you're in the 2L thread) do one now and one next year. I do think that if you have to choose, practical experience wins every time, but that doesn't mean doing moot court on top of it is going to hurt you. It only has the potential to help, especially if you've got a former moot courter as an interviewer who wants to relive his/her glory days in that moot court room...

This. It is entirely doable to do both. But if you get to somehow do a real trial as a certified student and it overlaps with your "international environmental" moot court/mock trial competition, wuh-oh.

[Anonymous User]

Just a thought that might help others. Does not having a linked in, Facebook, twitter or whatever hurt when offices are filtering through applicants they haven't met yet? I was able to do ok in the end employment wise but couldn't get an interview without the table talk at EJW to save my life and am wondering if the no internet presence could've been part of it.

[Borhas]

moot court is a waste of time

Disagree. Moot court, more than mock trial or even some clinics/externships, will teach you how to write and argue a legal (i.e. Fourth Amendment) issue. I interned at a DA's Office Appeals Bureau and I can't tell you how many bad motions by trial attorneys I read.

Additionally, appeals is a pretty niche area of practice, especially in the DA/PD's office, but a necessary one. A GOOD DA's Office will get a class of hirees that are a good mix of trial attorneys and appellate attorneys.

Mock trial will undoubtedly give you more cred in the earlier rounds of an interview, where the interviewers are most likely to be line attorneys, but I wouldn't discount the value of moot court so readily.

"line attorneys"?

You mean trial attorneys.

Appellate work is always an after thought compared to trials in criminal law.

Everything in criminal law is aimed at maneuvering for position in trial. You'll never see someone who started out in the appellate division running an office or handling the big trials. It's a niche, auxilliary practice in crim law, reserved for new hires that can't handle trial or vets that want to have a more stable 9-5 gig.

[Anonymous User]

I'm just tagging myself in this thread in case I have any advice to offer. I've been a state public defender for just under a year. I'll try to answer any questions about the hiring process and life as a young PD.

[wbrother]

I'm just tagging myself in this thread in case I have any advice to offer. I've been a state public defender for just under a year. I'll try to answer any questions about the hiring process and life as a young PD.

Which State/Any pro-tips on CA hiring/application/interview process?

[encore1101]

moot court is a waste of time

Disagree. Moot court, more than mock trial or even some clinics/externships, will teach you how to write and argue a legal (i.e. Fourth Amendment) issue. I interned at a DA's Office Appeals Bureau and I can't tell you how many bad motions by trial attorneys I read.

Additionally, appeals is a pretty niche area of practice, especially in the DA/PD's office, but a necessary one. A GOOD DA's Office will get a class of hirees that are a good mix of trial attorneys and appellate attorneys.

Mock trial will undoubtedly give you more cred in the earlier rounds of an interview, where the interviewers are most likely to be line attorneys, but I wouldn't discount the value of moot court so readily.

"line attorneys"?

You mean trial attorneys.

Appellate work is always an after thought compared to trials in criminal law.

Everything in criminal law is aimed at maneuvering for position in trial. You'll never see someone who started out in the appellate division running an office or handling the big trials. It's a niche, auxilliary practice in crim law, reserved for new hires that can't handle trial or vets that want to have a more stable 9-5 gig.

Except.. I had an adjunct professor who started in Appeals, then handled Special Prosecutions/murder trials in NYC. So there's that.

And I think you don't understand what I'm saying. Certainly, a DA's Office would want to definitively conclude a case at the earliest stages possible, whether its trial or even before. But the stark reality is that even cases which are "definitively" concluded can have meritorious issues be raised.

It's to the DA's benefit to have a new class that has people that can do trials, and have experience in writing appellate briefs and oral argument. There can be very complex issues of law that come up on appeal, separate from the merits of the actual case, and either the DA/PD would want to be in the best position to persuade the appellate courts why the law is on their side.

[FlanAl]

moot court is a waste of time

Disagree. Moot court, more than mock trial or even some clinics/externships, will teach you how to write and argue a legal (i.e. Fourth Amendment) issue. I interned at a DA's Office Appeals Bureau and I can't tell you how many bad motions by trial attorneys I read.

Additionally, appeals is a pretty niche area of practice, especially in the DA/PD's office, but a necessary one. A GOOD DA's Office will get a class of hirees that are a good mix of trial attorneys and appellate attorneys.

Mock trial will undoubtedly give you more cred in the earlier rounds of an interview, where the interviewers are most likely to be line attorneys, but I wouldn't discount the value of moot court so readily.

"line attorneys"?

You mean trial attorneys.

Appellate work is always an after thought compared to trials in criminal law.

Everything in criminal law is aimed at maneuvering for position in trial. You'll never see someone who started out in the appellate division running an office or handling the big trials. It's a niche, auxilliary practice in crim law, reserved for new hires that can't handle trial or vets that want to have a more stable 9-5 gig.

Except.. I had an adjunct professor who started in Appeals, then handled Special Prosecutions/murder trials in NYC. So there's that.

And I think you don't understand what I'm saying. Certainly, a DA's Office would want to definitively conclude a case at the earliest stages possible, whether its trial or even before. But the stark reality is that even cases which are "definitively" concluded can have meritorious issues be raised.

It's to the DA's benefit to have a new class that has people that can do trials, and have experience in writing appellate briefs and oral argument. There can be very complex issues of law that come up on appeal, separate from the merits of the actual case, and either the DA/PD would want to be in the best position to persuade the appellate courts why the law is on their side.

I mean you also have 3 pd offices in NYC that only do appeals and hire people right out of law school or do a fellowship with fresh grads. I think that a big issue is that not every office handles appeals, in fact many pd offices do not and I am pretty sure that a lot of appeals leave the DA's hands and go to state attorneys in a lot of jurisdictions. So you're submitting yourself to all of the extra work that moot court entails outside of law school, for essentially no practical benefit depending on the office you get hired at.

I could however see DA offices liking that you are a striver, which moot court will definitely convey.

And for the benefits of learning appellate type stuff, just take a class or clinic on it.

[Anonymous User]

Which State/Any pro-tips on CA hiring/application/interview process?

Wisconsin. I unfortunately don't know anything about California's hiring process. I did go through Colorado's though.

[Tanicius]

California PD offices could have their own thread. The ones that hire 3Ls tend to follow the same scheme of interviewing Fall/Winter of 3L year and hiring you for a < $20/hour & no benefits law clerk position for the following 6-12 months after graduation. Hopefully you get selected for those law clerk positions; otherwise, you volunteer at an office and hopefully secure some kind of funding so you don't starve. And at the end of your 6-12 months, hopefully a position opens up, either at that office or other places you've been interviewing, and hopefully you're in the minority of law clerk candidates at the office who actually gets hired as a real misdemeanor attorney with a caseload.

The only counties that hire 3Ls before graduation:

- Contra Costa County
- Alameda County
- Santa Clara County
- (sometimes) San Diego County

The offices that never hire pre-graduates and tend not to hire recent graduates, though they do have volunteer programs:

- LA County (in fact, all the surrounding counties as well)
- San Francisco County
- Solano County


It's a very frustrating process all around. Alameda, Santa Clara and Contra Costa tend to take most of their law clerk hires from their pool of intern/extern alums, so if you haven't interned at at least one of these offices, you're pretty much already dead in the water. Furthermore, they get back to you at different times. Alameda and CoCo interview and do callbacks in the Fall of your 3L year, and they get back to you on the hiring outcome before Santa Clara even starts looking at applications (late March).

Often times, the game is far from over once you get hired as a law clerk, and it is rage-inducingly random. Here are three big reasons why:

• 1.) I've had some friends that got hired off a law clerk position and into a full-time misdemeanor deputy position within 3 months of their clerkship, just because there were enough openings at that time. I've had other friends that got let go from their law clerk position at the end of their 6 or 12 months and had to take another law clerk position at one of the other three counties and wait another 6-12 months before they even got to do the work of a real attorney (representing people in court and managing cases, not just doing research and writing motions with a supervisor's name on the front page).
  
  2.) This has the other frustrating effect of making it more difficult to impress interviewing employers from other offices. "How many trials have you done in the year since graduation?" "Well, uh, none, cause they won't let me." "Oh, okay. How many second chairs you get to do?" "None." "... Okay, how many prelims or motions in limine you do?" "Well, none. I've done a lot of boiler plate suppression hearings and speedy trial hearings though!"
  
  3.) Finally, law clerks also suffer from their location at the very bottom of the totem pole. I have one friend who worked his ass off on a group of motions for a case over the span of several months, and right when it was time to argue the material in front of the judge, his supervising attorney came in and yanked the entire file up the ladder to a misdemeanor deputy. The justification was, "We need our misdemeanor attorneys to have this experience; you're not the priority." Never mind that it basically robbed him of 3-4 months of work and a line on his resume.

On one hand, I'm really bummed that I was not selected for a law clerk position in California, because it will make returning to California in a few years logistically difficult, what with their no-reciprocity and nation's toughest bar exam, the competitive hiring scheme for laterals, etc. But on the other hand, I'm thankful that the offer I did get, in Minnesota, will allow me to skip all the BS that is the law clerk --> "real" attorney" career track model. The few offices that hire 3Ls here in CA are so ridiculously competitive that it has often been easier for the law clerks who don't get hired here to get federal defender or even prestigious public defense teaching fellowships than it is to get the coveted misdemeanor position out here.

[samcro_op]

California PD offices could have their own thread. The ones that hire 3Ls tend to follow the same scheme of interviewing Fall/Winter of 3L year and hiring you for a < $20/hour & no benefits law clerk position for the following 6-12 months after graduation. Hopefully you get selected for those law clerk positions; otherwise, you volunteer at an office and hopefully secure some kind of funding so you don't starve. And at the end of your 6-12 months, hopefully a position opens up, either at that office or other places you've been interviewing, and hopefully you're in the minority of law clerk candidates at the office who actually gets hired as a real misdemeanor attorney with a caseload.

The counties that hire 3Ls before graduation:

- Contra Costa County
- Alameda County
- Santa Clara County
- (sometimes) San Diego County

The offices that never hire pre-graduates and tend not to hire recent graduates:

- LA County (in fact, all the surrounding counties as well)
- San Francisco County
- Solano County


It's a very frustrating process all around. Alameda, Santa Clara and Contra Costa tend to take most of their law clerk hires from their pool of intern/extern alums, so if you haven't interned at at least one of these offices, you're pretty much already dead in the water. Furthermore, they get back to you at different times. Alameda and CoCo interview and do callbacks in the Fall of your 3L year, and they get back to you on the hiring outcome before Santa Clara even starts looking at applications (late March).

Often times, the game is far from over once you get hired as a law clerk, and it is rage-inducingly random. I've had friends that got let go from their law clerk position at the end of their 6 or 12 months and had to take another law clerk position at one of the other three counties and wait another 6-12 months before they even got to do the work of a real attorney (representing people in court and managing cases, not just doing research and writing motions with a supervisor's name on the front page). This has the other frustrating effect of making it more difficult to impress interviewing employers from other offices. "How many trials have you done in the year since graduation?" "Well, uh, none, cause they won't let me." "Oh, okay. How many prelims or motions in limine you do?" "Well, none. I've done a lot of boiler plate suppression hearings and speedy trial hearings though!" Law clerks also suffer from their location at the very bottom of the totem pole. I have one friend who worked his ass off on a group of motions for a case over the span of several months, and right when it was time to argue the material in front of the judge, his supervising attorney came in and yanked the entire file up the ladder to a misdemeanor deputy. The justification was, "We need our misdemeanor attorneys to have this experience; you're not the priority." Never mind that it basically robbed him of 3-4 months of work and a line of his resume.

On one hand, I'm really bummed that I was not selected for a law clerk position in California, because it will make returning to California in a few years logistically difficult, what with their no-reciprocity and nation's toughest bar exam, the competitive hiring scheme for laterals, etc. But on the other hand, I'm thankful that the offer I did get, in Minnesota, will allow me to skip all the BS that is the law clerk --> "real" attorney" career track model.

Is there anyways we can start compiling a list of this type of information to put in the OP? This was pretty helpful. So I am assuming you were hired in MN as a 3L, would you share more insight on the process/location. PM would be great if you don't want to post.

[BlueLotus]

does philly pd allow the unpaid postgrad fellowship thing?

[FlanAl]

@tanicius am I way off base or isn't one of you parents at a pd office in MN? If so, that would be so awesome! Built in mentor that you can feel comfortable really asking tough questions to. That would be great. If not, still major congrats on the offer. As another california lover who took an offer elsewhere, I know its gonna be a struggle, but I think any employer will be happy to have us a couple years down the line when all the boomers retire. (AND there are a TON of boomer PDs in California, almost as bad as NYC)

edited

[Borhas]

moot court is a waste of time

Disagree. Moot court, more than mock trial or even some clinics/externships, will teach you how to write and argue a legal (i.e. Fourth Amendment) issue. I interned at a DA's Office Appeals Bureau and I can't tell you how many bad motions by trial attorneys I read.

Additionally, appeals is a pretty niche area of practice, especially in the DA/PD's office, but a necessary one. A GOOD DA's Office will get a class of hirees that are a good mix of trial attorneys and appellate attorneys.

Mock trial will undoubtedly give you more cred in the earlier rounds of an interview, where the interviewers are most likely to be line attorneys, but I wouldn't discount the value of moot court so readily.

"line attorneys"?

You mean trial attorneys.

Appellate work is always an after thought compared to trials in criminal law.

Everything in criminal law is aimed at maneuvering for position in trial. You'll never see someone who started out in the appellate division running an office or handling the big trials. It's a niche, auxilliary practice in crim law, reserved for new hires that can't handle trial or vets that want to have a more stable 9-5 gig.

Except.. I had an adjunct professor who started in Appeals, then handled Special Prosecutions/murder trials in NYC. So there's that.

And I think you don't understand what I'm saying. Certainly, a DA's Office would want to definitively conclude a case at the earliest stages possible, whether its trial or even before. But the stark reality is that even cases which are "definitively" concluded can have meritorious issues be raised.

It's to the DA's benefit to have a new class that has people that can do trials, and have experience in writing appellate briefs and oral argument. There can be very complex issues of law that come up on appeal, separate from the merits of the actual case, and either the DA/PD would want to be in the best position to persuade the appellate courts why the law is on their side.

No, I get what you are saying. In a world with infinite time doing moot court would make sense, but practically speaking, if you do moot court you'll know a few legal issues really well and you'll have good research and writing experience. But at what cost? At the cost of maximizing your trial skills and experience. If you can't do trial team or a clinic, or intern during the semester, then maybe consider moot court. If you have access to those things, moot court is a waste of time.

[wbrother]

California PD offices could have their own thread. The ones that hire 3Ls tend to follow the same scheme of interviewing Fall/Winter of 3L year and hiring you for a < $20/hour & no benefits law clerk position for the following 6-12 months after graduation. Hopefully you get selected for those law clerk positions; otherwise, you volunteer at an office and hopefully secure some kind of funding so you don't starve. And at the end of your 6-12 months, hopefully a position opens up, either at that office or other places you've been interviewing, and hopefully you're in the minority of law clerk candidates at the office who actually gets hired as a real misdemeanor attorney with a caseload.

The only counties that hire 3Ls before graduation:

- Contra Costa County
- Alameda County
- Santa Clara County
- (sometimes) San Diego County

The offices that never hire pre-graduates and tend not to hire recent graduates, though they do have volunteer programs:

- LA County (in fact, all the surrounding counties as well)
- San Francisco County
- Solano County


It's a very frustrating process all around. Alameda, Santa Clara and Contra Costa tend to take most of their law clerk hires from their pool of intern/extern alums, so if you haven't interned at at least one of these offices, you're pretty much already dead in the water. Furthermore, they get back to you at different times. Alameda and CoCo interview and do callbacks in the Fall of your 3L year, and they get back to you on the hiring outcome before Santa Clara even starts looking at applications (late March).

Often times, the game is far from over once you get hired as a law clerk, and it is rage-inducingly random. Here are three big reasons why:

• 1.) I've had some friends that got hired off a law clerk position and into a full-time misdemeanor deputy position within 3 months of their clerkship, just because there were enough openings at that time. I've had other friends that got let go from their law clerk position at the end of their 6 or 12 months and had to take another law clerk position at one of the other three counties and wait another 6-12 months before they even got to do the work of a real attorney (representing people in court and managing cases, not just doing research and writing motions with a supervisor's name on the front page).
  
  2.) This has the other frustrating effect of making it more difficult to impress interviewing employers from other offices. "How many trials have you done in the year since graduation?" "Well, uh, none, cause they won't let me." "Oh, okay. How many second chairs you get to do?" "None." "... Okay, how many prelims or motions in limine you do?" "Well, none. I've done a lot of boiler plate suppression hearings and speedy trial hearings though!"
  
  3.) Finally, law clerks also suffer from their location at the very bottom of the totem pole. I have one friend who worked his ass off on a group of motions for a case over the span of several months, and right when it was time to argue the material in front of the judge, his supervising attorney came in and yanked the entire file up the ladder to a misdemeanor deputy. The justification was, "We need our misdemeanor attorneys to have this experience; you're not the priority." Never mind that it basically robbed him of 3-4 months of work and a line on his resume.

On one hand, I'm really bummed that I was not selected for a law clerk position in California, because it will make returning to California in a few years logistically difficult, what with their no-reciprocity and nation's toughest bar exam, the competitive hiring scheme for laterals, etc. But on the other hand, I'm thankful that the offer I did get, in Minnesota, will allow me to skip all the BS that is the law clerk --> "real" attorney" career track model. The few offices that hire 3Ls here in CA are so ridiculously competitive that it has often been easier for the law clerks who don't get hired here to get federal defender or even prestigious public defense teaching fellowships than it is to get the coveted misdemeanor position out here.

Unbelievably helpful! Though here at SC I know 3Ls with offers for LA and Fed PD?! They lying/counting unpaid volunteer positions as "offers"? Or are they just the exceptions that prove the rule?

[Anonymous User]

the clerkships are technically offers. When 3Ls say they have an offer in california I always assume its for a clerkship. Also, which fed PD?

Didn't mean to make that anonymous it was from FlanAl