The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls) Forum

[JCougar]

Congrats on the offer - sounds like something you will enjoy and it will at least mostly pay the bills.

Yeah. But I'm not moving out of my law school studio apartment. Just going to try and pay down as much loan principal as possible this coming year while still living like a law student. Maybe I'll try and fit in one vacation.

[spleenworship]

Gratz to all vale leavers!

[rad lulz]

Grants coogz mah dude!

[Stanford4Me]

Congrats, JCougar.

I feel you on the top law school/small firm clash. In my interview with the firm I'm with now the partner straight up asked me why he should think I wouldn't just use them as a stepping stone to a larger firm. I imagine it might be kind of hard to seem genuine for people who ultimately want to be at a big firm, but over the course of the past year I got over the "biglaw or bust" mentality and was honestly excited about working at a smaller firm.

[kalvano]

Thanks.

[Mroberts3]

I would take it. No need to put it on your resume for law jobs, so how could it hurt you? I'm teaching the LSAT while working in law job unpaid. Just because I don't plan to do LSAT teaching as a career doesn't mean it won't help pay the bills while I get good legal experience (damn government hiring!).

[Anonymous User]

I've never felt this empty and worthless in my entire life. Seriously, consideration my family is THE only thing keeping me from committing suicide.

3+ years ago, I imagined that the law would be a fulfilling endeavor. Now it seems like nothing more than a pipe dream.

Fuck this shit.

[BarbellDreams]

@kalvano

Really depends on what you mean by decent pay and what the hours are. I am not at a point where I would take a 30K/year non-legal job right now, but if offered 50K/year for decent hours I honestly may take that job long term given that most of the entry level smallfirm jobs I see are paying 50 or less (and the hours would undoubtedly be worse).

[BarbellDreams]

I've never felt this empty and worthless in my entire life. Seriously, consideration my family is THE only thing keeping me from committing suicide.

3+ years ago, I imagined that the law would be a fulfilling endeavor. Now it seems like nothing more than a pipe dream.

Fuck this shit.

Hang in there, I am with you overall on feeling pretty pathetic, not even about the job, not about the loans, but about 3 years of life I can't get back and the infinite doc review career I will need to take if I can't find something in the next 4-6 months. With that said...

...think of it this way, what is the absolute worst thing that can happen? Think logically, not emotionally on this one. Lets say you don't find a job at all and you are forced to move in with your parents while looking for work and doing doc review. Ok, is that really the end of the world? You're getting paid double per hour than most college grads to do boring yet extremely easy work with zero chance to screw up while the family pays the bills? You get to go home at 5 and hang out with family, friends and SO everyday while lawyers slave away till 8 pm and works weekends. You have time for other hobbies, other career interests, and plenty of time to look for jobs. Hell, you have time to do pro bono work and actually, you know, be a lawyer instead of waiting 5 years to even sniff second chair (typical biglaw timeline according to my biglaw partner friend). Is that scenario the absolute worst thing that can happen to you? If so, is that worst thing in the world really that terrible? Think about it.

[rad lulz]

I've never felt this empty and worthless in my entire life. Seriously, consideration my family is THE only thing keeping me from committing suicide.

3+ years ago, I imagined that the law would be a fulfilling endeavor. Now it seems like nothing more than a pipe dream.

Fuck this shit.

Hey brother

Sorry you're feelin down; PM me if you feel like talkin.

Seek counseling if you can; that was really helpful for me

And always remember - your self worth is not defined by whether you do or don't work as a lawyer, no matter what your profs, school, and classmates say

[deadpanic]

I've never felt this empty and worthless in my entire life. Seriously, consideration my family is THE only thing keeping me from committing suicide.

3+ years ago, I imagined that the law would be a fulfilling endeavor. Now it seems like nothing more than a pipe dream.

Fuck this shit.

Seriously PM me if you want to talk. I have felt that down too. I know exactly where you are. I am still unemployed and have totally changed my outlook on life. You will be just fine dude.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I've never felt this empty and worthless in my entire life. Seriously, consideration my family is THE only thing keeping me from committing suicide.

3+ years ago, I imagined that the law would be a fulfilling endeavor. Now it seems like nothing more than a pipe dream.

Fuck this shit.

I'm so sorry. You can PM me too, if it would help. I second counseling, and that you are not your job. But I know it feels awful right now.

[rad lulz]

I've never felt this empty and worthless in my entire life. Seriously, consideration my family is THE only thing keeping me from committing suicide.

3+ years ago, I imagined that the law would be a fulfilling endeavor. Now it seems like nothing more than a pipe dream.

Fuck this shit.

I'm so sorry. You can PM me too, if it would help. I second counseling, and that you are not your job. But I know it feels awful right now.

Yeah that stuff I said earlier was not intended to minimize what you are feeling in any way, anon

I hope you feel better man

Seriously please talk to someone

[mr. wednesday]

...think of it this way, what is the absolute worst thing that can happen? Think logically, not emotionally on this one. Lets say you don't find a job at all and you are forced to move in with your parents while looking for work and doing doc review. Ok, is that really the end of the world? You're getting paid double per hour than most college grads to do boring yet extremely easy work with zero chance to screw up while the family pays the bills? You get to go home at 5 and hang out with family, friends and SO everyday while lawyers slave away till 8 pm and works weekends. You have time for other hobbies, other career interests, and plenty of time to look for jobs. Hell, you have time to do pro bono work and actually, you know, be a lawyer instead of waiting 5 years to even sniff second chair (typical biglaw timeline according to my biglaw partner friend). Is that scenario the absolute worst thing that can happen to you? If so, is that worst thing in the world really that terrible? Think about it.

I also want to add for everyone who is feeling helpless and isn't from a socioeconomic class where they could just move back in with their parents and be financially supported as a worst case scenario that even if you don't have that support system to fall back on, you aren't a failure even if you take a non-legal job to pay the bills temporarily. Or forever.

It's so easy to get trapped in that mindset that if you went to law school, doing anything but law makes those three years a waste of time and money and insurmountable. There are quasi-legal positions, there are non legal options, and a lot of people are happy doing them. And obviously there are still legal positions outside of the standard 2L biglaw -> job path.

[Bikeflip]

I've never felt this empty and worthless in my entire life. Seriously, consideration my family is THE only thing keeping me from committing suicide.

3+ years ago, I imagined that the law would be a fulfilling endeavor. Now it seems like nothing more than a pipe dream.

Fuck this shit.

Hugs brother. Your family is solid.

If you feel that therapy isn't your thing, I'd reconsider it. I recall during 1L feeling so hopeless and that going to therapy would just confirm that I was hopeless. "Only the hopeless and the weak need therapy!" I thought. That was before I started having similar thoughts to what you're having now. I remember that at the start of first session I had was the worst I ever felt. Suddenly I was "hopeless," and I was "weak." By the end of the session, I didn't feel that much better. However, I sighed a bit because I had talked to someone who could help me work through some issues. After a few sessions, my head started to come back on my shoulders.

You can PM me, too, if you wish. I remember earlier this year when I was having some depression/relationship Vale induced issues that I posted here in the Vale. The PMs I received were encouraging. Say what you want about lawl skool kids, but the Vale looks after their own.

[NYstate]

Dying because you can't find a job as a lawyer would be a senseless waste. You and thousands of other people thought law was the key to a bright future. You were all mislead. It has turned into a nightmare.

That doesn't mean that life isn't worth living. Maybe letting go of law would help you? I dunno, I think you should try therapy. Therapy can help. If you live in new York, everyone has a therapist or has a family member or friend who is in therapy.

Maybe medication can help you too.

Try to remember that your unhappiness is magnified by your depression. You can't really trust your judgement right now. I know that getting a job would change things for you and I'm hoping for the best for you. But it is possible to keep going without a job, or until you get a job, without falling into despair.

I told you before how suicide devastated our family. You just can't give in to that, no matter how dark things seem to you. The saddest part about the suicide to me is all the good and happy and unexpected things that happen that she will never share. She will never see her kids graduate college or meet her grandchildren when they are born or so many things- even a simple family reunion. Her kids have struggled mightily and had to drop out of school for a while. They are just lost. As are her parents and siblings and all the rest of us. Labor day weekend is the anniversary of her funeral. The lose to us is agonizing. You have to keep fighting for your family's sake as well as your own.

Just don't allow yourself to give up. You can find a path for the future. Get the therapy and support you need. You can get through this. It can get better. You just might have to have a little faith that it will get better.

Maybe you should consider stopping the job search while you are so down. Concentrate on your mental health for a while. And then get back at it.

You can always post here. You are by no means alone. Far more law grads are in your spot than you think.

[kalvano]

I've never felt this empty and worthless in my entire life. Seriously, consideration my family is THE only thing keeping me from committing suicide.

3+ years ago, I imagined that the law would be a fulfilling endeavor. Now it seems like nothing more than a pipe dream.

Fuck this shit.

Have faith, brother. What you do does not define who you are. It's a shitty time and it's very stressful, but you'll pull through. Law school is just school, being a lawyer is just a job. Neither one is who you are as a person, or in any way affects your worth. You'll come out on the other side eventually.

[JCougar]

I've never felt this empty and worthless in my entire life. Seriously, consideration my family is THE only thing keeping me from committing suicide.

3+ years ago, I imagined that the law would be a fulfilling endeavor. Now it seems like nothing more than a pipe dream.

Fuck this shit.

Just don't internalize the shitty situation. I hate saying this, because too many people in this country falsely claim it when it's simply not true, but you are the victim of a pyramid scheme. What did you do? You went to school to better yourself and to better your career. You took out loans because no sane person would think that more education is a bad thing. You didn't do anything wrong. You are perfectly capable of being a lawyer, and it's not your fault that there is 1 job out there for every 2 graduates--with about half of those available jobs having terrible starting pay given your student loan payments.

It just so happens that the ABA is negligent in their enforcement of the legal education market, and all law schools care about is sucking government-backed money out of prospective students to fortify their rankings and their endowments. There's no one person sitting behind the controls attempting to commit fraud at your expense. Legal education is deficient in a systemic fashion--it gives everyone that runs the system plausible deniability, but allows the entire system to literally fuck over half of the people that enter.

If you think that your outcome is somehow a reflection on you and your worth as a person, you are wrong. It is a reflection on how unregulated greed leads to sick and twisted outcomes.

Just keep trying, and go into interviews with the confidence that you are able to perform. Take anything you can get...get the experience clock ticking. The lateral market is better than TLS would have you think.

[deadpanic]

I've never felt this empty and worthless in my entire life. Seriously, consideration my family is THE only thing keeping me from committing suicide.

3+ years ago, I imagined that the law would be a fulfilling endeavor. Now it seems like nothing more than a pipe dream.

Fuck this shit.

Just don't internalize the shitty situation. I hate saying this, because too many people in this country falsely claim it when it's simply not true, but you are the victim of a pyramid scheme. What did you do? You went to school to better yourself and to better your career. You took out loans because no sane person would think that more education is a bad thing. You didn't do anything wrong. You are perfectly capable of being a lawyer, and it's not your fault that there is 1 job out there for every 2 graduates--with about half of those available jobs having terrible starting pay given your student loan payments.

It just so happens that the ABA is negligent in their enforcement of the legal education market, and all law schools care about is sucking government-backed money out of prospective students to fortify their rankings and their endowments. There's no one person sitting behind the controls attempting to commit fraud at your expense. Legal education is deficient in a systemic fashion--it gives everyone that runs the system plausible deniability, but allows the entire system to literally fuck over half of the people that enter.

If you think that your outcome is somehow a reflection on you and your worth as a person, you are wrong. It is a reflection on how unregulated greed leads to sick and twisted outcomes.

Just keep trying, and go into interviews with the confidence that you are able to perform. Take anything you can get...get the experience clock ticking. The lateral market is better than TLS would have you think.

This is an incredibly awesome post. +1 Cougs

[BarbellDreams]

No one explicitly says it, but the only reason those suits against law schools are getting thrown out is on public policy grounds. If 1 suit succeeded than around 1 million grads from every school outside of possibly HYS would successfully sue the law schools for close to a billion in damages shutting most of them down...and maybe that last part wouldn't be such a bad thing and would allow for the legal market to recover if we went down to like 50 law schools. There is a reason that medical schools are doing fine with placement and law schools aren't. There are 75% less medical schools and if you don't get a high enough score on the MCAT you simply wont be accepted anywhere.

[legalese_retard]

I got an offer at a small firm. It's a contract/hourly position, but there's 40-50 hours a week available, and it's real attorney work in my desired area of practice (not doc review). And there's a permanent position available "if things work out," whatever that means.

Congrats! If you end up liking the firm/work, make sure you stand up for yourself. It always amazes me how lawyers do great work defending or protecting the best interests of their clients, but fail to protect their own interests in the workplace. If you are killing it at work and aren't getting any bumps or bonuses after 6 months, you should have a meeting with the attorneys and discuss your pay/employment standing. Yes there are lots of greedy attorneys out there that will try and milk every penny of work out of you until you quit; however, there are decent attorneys out there who believe in fairness.

I had a friend who worked at a small firm, did great, and the partners loved her; however, she didn't get rewarded financially. She eventually set up a meeting outlining her work and accomplishments and hoped to get a compensation increase for that work. Since it was a smaller firm, the partners did not realize how much work she was actually doing and how much money she was making for the firm until she pointed it out. They ended up giving her a huge raise and additional benefits.

Basically I think there are firms out there that don't know they are paying too low and don't realize how much money their associates are generating. Sometimes you will have to bring their attention to it. If you are in that situation, be sure you have the work and numbers to back up your requests for more money or whatever you are asking for.

[TTH]

I've never felt this empty and worthless in my entire life. Seriously, consideration my family is THE only thing keeping me from committing suicide.

3+ years ago, I imagined that the law would be a fulfilling endeavor. Now it seems like nothing more than a pipe dream.

Fuck this shit.

Sorry for your troubles, brother. There's nothing that I can say that hasn't already been said in previous replies, but know that there are a whole pack of bright, motivated, decent people across the country going through the same shit you are. The page is going to turn eventually, but until then, consider talking to a counselor. If you want to rail about your situation privately, feel free to pm me as well.

[Anonymous User]

I've never felt this empty and worthless in my entire life. Seriously, consideration my family is THE only thing keeping me from committing suicide.

3+ years ago, I imagined that the law would be a fulfilling endeavor. Now it seems like nothing more than a pipe dream.

Fuck this shit.

Sorry for your troubles, brother. There's nothing that I can say that hasn't already been said in previous replies, but know that there are a whole pack of bright, motivated, decent people across the country going through the same shit you are. The page is going to turn eventually, but until then, consider talking to a counselor. If you want to rail about your situation privately, feel free to pm me as well.

I second talking to a therapist/maybe getting on meds. After striking out at 2L OCI last year I got incredibly depressed and I've done a complete 180 since talking to someone and getting on an SSRI. I feel a lot better and my whole outlook on life has improved. Law school and this profession seems to think any mental issues are horrible stigmas but they're not. Just talking to someone can help.

[kalvano]

PAYE is a lifesaver. My payments will be like $100 a month for the first few months, which should help offset the not being employed thing.

[schweitziro]

Should be 0 if unemployed.