Fall bonuses Forum
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Re: Fall bonuses
I think what a poster above said is important. Weil isn’t trying to keep seniors billing under 2k. My friend used to work at weil in one of its litigation groups. He said that the target hours was 2200. You’d get a bonus regardless, but he said that if you were under that, you weren’t someone the firm was looking to keep around that long.
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Re: Fall bonuses
Then would you like to explain why lockstep salaries and bonuses increase based on seniority? Juniors are often assigned work from seniors for a reason.Joachim2017 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:30 pmSenior associates on this thread huffing about how their hours are so much harder and more difficult than junior hours is pretty hilarious. There's no hard and fast rule here. Sometimes juniors have a lot more stress, difficulty, and complexity in their work than seniors, who take the credit and pass it along to partners after some minimum amount of oversight. Sometimes juniors work directly with partners. Obviously that's not always the case, but the linear conception here is just not what's actually true at many firms.
It’s not a competition for who has a tougher or more stressful job, that’s not quantifiable. It’s just that a bonus based on hours alone fails to acknowledge the difference in work and the difference in revenue/profitability based on rates.
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Re: Fall bonuses
That's why seniors get massive bonuses at the end of the year.ChickenSalad wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:35 pmThen would you like to explain why lockstep salaries and bonuses increase based on seniority? Juniors are often assigned work from seniors for a reason.Joachim2017 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:30 pmSenior associates on this thread huffing about how their hours are so much harder and more difficult than junior hours is pretty hilarious. There's no hard and fast rule here. Sometimes juniors have a lot more stress, difficulty, and complexity in their work than seniors, who take the credit and pass it along to partners after some minimum amount of oversight. Sometimes juniors work directly with partners. Obviously that's not always the case, but the linear conception here is just not what's actually true at many firms.
It’s not a competition for who has a tougher or more stressful job, that’s not quantifiable. It’s just that a bonus based on hours alone fails to acknowledge the difference in work and the difference in revenue/profitability based on rates.
Two weeks ago, no one expected any extra money and consensus was that market end of year bonuses were going to be lower. Now we have confirmation that everyone gets the same bonuses as last year PLUS extra money, and seniors who had fairly chill years are angry because people who worked substantially harder got paid more than them. This profession is full of some miserable fucking people.
- glitter178
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Re: Fall bonuses
So you all are complaining about the rubric for completely unexpected, huge, *extra* bonus (which will precede a standard, seniority-based bonus in 2 months) during a global pandemic and recession? Charming.
- DoveBodyWash
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Re: Fall bonuses
Weil just made the decision that restructuring juniors and midlevels (not at Weil but believe me all of them are crushed) are more important to retain right now than 7th year litigators twiddling their thumbs. Not more complicated than that.
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Re: Fall bonuses
Agreed. Dove is the smartest dude in this thread BTW.DoveBodyWash wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:49 pmWeil just made the decision that restructuring juniors and midlevels (not at Weil but believe me all of them are crushed) are more important to retain right now than 7th year litigators twiddling their thumbs. Not more complicated than that.
These bonuses were designed to compensate teams which are busy (not saying this is group-specific, since large chapter 11 cases require litigators as well as various other support teams)
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Re: Fall bonuses
Seconded and thirded. Please, salty non-transactional lawyers in this thread, take it from me as I’ve heard it from the mouths of equity partners at my previous V5 and my current V20 - the rainmakers in your firm don’t give a shit about you. It’s 2020. Litigation is dead outside of the boutiques. These bonuses exclusively relate to finance / RX / M&AzAnonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:55 pmAgreed. Dove is the smartest dude in this thread BTW.DoveBodyWash wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:49 pmWeil just made the decision that restructuring juniors and midlevels (not at Weil but believe me all of them are crushed) are more important to retain right now than 7th year litigators twiddling their thumbs. Not more complicated than that.
These bonuses were designed to compensate teams which are busy (not saying this is group-specific, since large chapter 11 cases require litigators as well as various other support teams)
- YourCaptain
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Re: Fall bonuses
Titcr.DoveBodyWash wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:49 pmWeil just made the decision that restructuring juniors and midlevels (not at Weil but believe me all of them are crushed) are more important to retain right now than 7th year litigators twiddling their thumbs. Not more complicated than that.
Everyone is happy to receive bonuses but Weil just came out and said the quiet part out loud.
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Re: Fall bonuses
Again I say: You can accomplish this same thing by factoring in a greater premium on the bonus for more senior people. Generally speaking, the 4th/5th/6th year really running point on the deal/matter/case who billed 2250 is going to be pissed when she or he finds out that the 1st year who billed 2050 doing doc review / diligence / sig pages / compiling / etc. got the same fall bonus. And firms would generally rather not piss off the group of people who actually know how to run point and make judgment calls.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:55 pmAgreed. Dove is the smartest dude in this thread BTW.DoveBodyWash wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:49 pmWeil just made the decision that restructuring juniors and midlevels (not at Weil but believe me all of them are crushed) are more important to retain right now than 7th year litigators twiddling their thumbs. Not more complicated than that.
These bonuses were designed to compensate teams which are busy (not saying this is group-specific, since large chapter 11 cases require litigators as well as various other support teams)
Again, any fall bonus is good news. Weil just didn't approach it artfully at all.
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Re: Fall bonuses
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:11 pmAgain I say: You can accomplish this same thing by factoring in a greater premium on the bonus for more senior people. Generally speaking, the 4th/5th/6th year really running point on the deal/matter/case who billed 2250 is going to be pissed when she or he finds out that the 1st year who billed 2050 doing doc review / diligence / sig pages / compiling / etc. got the same fall bonus. And firms would generally rather not piss off the group of people who actually know how to run point and make judgment calls.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:55 pmAgreed. Dove is the smartest dude in this thread BTW.DoveBodyWash wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:49 pmWeil just made the decision that restructuring juniors and midlevels (not at Weil but believe me all of them are crushed) are more important to retain right now than 7th year litigators twiddling their thumbs. Not more complicated than that.
These bonuses were designed to compensate teams which are busy (not saying this is group-specific, since large chapter 11 cases require litigators as well as various other support teams)
Again, any fall bonus is good news. Weil just didn't approach it artfully at all.
That 4th/5th/6th year sounds like an asshole, then. They're still getting paid WAY more than the 1st year. Both in salary and overall bonus.
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Re: Fall bonuses
TCRSGTslaughter wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:14 pmAnonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:11 pmAgain I say: You can accomplish this same thing by factoring in a greater premium on the bonus for more senior people. Generally speaking, the 4th/5th/6th year really running point on the deal/matter/case who billed 2250 is going to be pissed when she or he finds out that the 1st year who billed 2050 doing doc review / diligence / sig pages / compiling / etc. got the same fall bonus. And firms would generally rather not piss off the group of people who actually know how to run point and make judgment calls.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:55 pmAgreed. Dove is the smartest dude in this thread BTW.DoveBodyWash wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:49 pmWeil just made the decision that restructuring juniors and midlevels (not at Weil but believe me all of them are crushed) are more important to retain right now than 7th year litigators twiddling their thumbs. Not more complicated than that.
These bonuses were designed to compensate teams which are busy (not saying this is group-specific, since large chapter 11 cases require litigators as well as various other support teams)
Again, any fall bonus is good news. Weil just didn't approach it artfully at all.
That 4th/5th/6th year sounds like an asshole, then. They're still getting paid WAY more than the 1st year.
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Re: Fall bonuses
It's not about comparing to first years; it's about comparing to the market. I don't care if a first year working for me gets $100k. (Why hate on others' success?). The issue is more that some midlevels/seniors could have made more at other firms. That's why they are bummed. Weil's strategy might make sense for the firm. But still; it's easy to see why some are bummed.
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Re: Fall bonuses
I sorta feel for the Weil corporate folks. They carried the bankruptcy team in good times, then COVID hits, transaction volume dips, and now the bankruptcy people get (effectively) targeted one-time bonuses? I'd be pretty pissed. Hopefully the juniors were able to shift over to some restructuring matters.
The litigators...I dunno, this is what happens when you litigate at a corporate-first firm. (Maybe Weil lit has been busier than I expect tho)
The litigators...I dunno, this is what happens when you litigate at a corporate-first firm. (Maybe Weil lit has been busier than I expect tho)
Last edited by LBJ's Hair on Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Fall bonuses
Any chance the KE associates (of which I am one) actually get trued up? If it’s private, why would the partnership do it? I would think we should give up hope we ever see that much needed money?
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Re: Fall bonuses
LBJ's Hair wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:26 pmI sorta feel for the Weil corporate folks. They carried the bankruptcy team in good times, then COVID hits, transaction volume dips, and now the bankruptcy people get (effectively) targeted one-time bonuses? I'd be pretty pissed. Hopefully the juniors were able to shift over to some restructuring matters.
The litigators...I dunno, this is what happens when you litigate at a corporate-first firm. (Maybe Weil lit has been busier than I expect tho)
This first part of this isn't true for Weil though. Even when the economy was in boomtown and corp groups were slammed, BFR still billed substantially more than them (combination of a surprising number of companies going bust in the past decade and the group being perpetually short staffed). It's been a rough place to work for years and it has that reputation across the firm. Honestly, it's kinda shitty that non-BFR Weil folks have been cracking jokes about BFR's ridiculous workload for years but now are upset because those dudes are finally receiving a one-time extra bit of compensation for it. More power to 'em.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- WhirledWorld
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Re: Fall bonuses
I'm very surprised more firms aren't following Milbank's model, which paid 150% of market to associates who have been crushed while still providing half bonuses to those practice groups that have not been busy at all. That seemed very sensible as a matter of rewarding and retaining the associates most in danger of lateraling while still generally paying market.
Bottom line for Weil is that most midlevel and senior associates will receive below-market compensation this year.
Bottom line for Weil is that most midlevel and senior associates will receive below-market compensation this year.
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Re: Fall bonuses
Weil midlevel here. I don't really care if high billing restructuring juniors get a bigger bonus than me. I just don't love that those of us in other groups don't even get the DPW scale.smile0751 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:18 pmTCRSGTslaughter wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:14 pmAnonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:11 pmAgain I say: You can accomplish this same thing by factoring in a greater premium on the bonus for more senior people. Generally speaking, the 4th/5th/6th year really running point on the deal/matter/case who billed 2250 is going to be pissed when she or he finds out that the 1st year who billed 2050 doing doc review / diligence / sig pages / compiling / etc. got the same fall bonus. And firms would generally rather not piss off the group of people who actually know how to run point and make judgment calls.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:55 pmAgreed. Dove is the smartest dude in this thread BTW.DoveBodyWash wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:49 pmWeil just made the decision that restructuring juniors and midlevels (not at Weil but believe me all of them are crushed) are more important to retain right now than 7th year litigators twiddling their thumbs. Not more complicated than that.
These bonuses were designed to compensate teams which are busy (not saying this is group-specific, since large chapter 11 cases require litigators as well as various other support teams)
Again, any fall bonus is good news. Weil just didn't approach it artfully at all.
That 4th/5th/6th year sounds like an asshole, then. They're still getting paid WAY more than the 1st year.
I'm in the M&A group and I think a good amount of us will get below-market bonuses based on this even though we've been crushed the last few months and the rest of the year looks like more of the same. When the shutdowns started, most deals went quite for a couple of months, so meeting these annualized thresholds is still a pretty big hurdle for anyone that hasn't been working on bankruptcy filings.
But when all these restructuring start looking to exit, that work is going to hit the M&A group so just seems a bit odd the way the timing works out for all of this. The bankruptcy group is actually pretty small and a lot of the restructuring work is done by other groups. Sure, bankruptcy group brings in the work and handles the ramp up to filing but restructurings inevitably lead to litigation and deal work.
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Re: Fall bonuses
Not at Weil, so I don't know this firsthand, but I don't think BFR has ever been "carried." AFAIK they were having retention issues even pre-covid because of unfailingly overworked associates, and have had to turn down work because of staffing issues.LBJ's Hair wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:26 pmI sorta feel for the Weil corporate folks. They carried the bankruptcy team in good times, then COVID hits, transaction volume dips, and now the bankruptcy people get (effectively) targeted one-time bonuses? I'd be pretty pissed. Hopefully the juniors were able to shift over to some restructuring matters.
The litigators...I dunno, this is what happens when you litigate at a corporate-first firm. (Maybe Weil lit has been busier than I expect tho)
I'm sure this is little consolation to the BFR associates whose lives have been thus consumed, but my impression is that BFR has long been (and certainly is now) the crown jewel of the firm, and has consistently spun off work to other groups.
- parkslope
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Re: Fall bonuses
Are senior associates making $300K + bonus billing 2200 really going to begrudge a junior associate getting $20K extra for billing 2650 hours or whatever? That sounds miserable. I don't think very many of us would be willing to work an extra 300 hours or whatever to make an extra $20K pre-tax. Who cares?
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Re: Fall bonuses
Was hoping to hear from Skadden and a Cravath before bed. 

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Re: Fall bonuses
+1. I work for my firm because it pays top of market. To the extent I do not get paid top of market (whatever market happens to be --- pay a first year double what you pay a third year; for all I care, if the entire market is doing it, then it's sort of what I signed up for), I will feel like I'm getting kind of ripped off. In this case, I feel like Cravath needs to either set a new market standard altogether, or else some "greater of" formulation where you get the greater of what DPW or Weil would have paid you. (Or Milbank, if they want to be really market-paying...).Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:22 pmIt's not about comparing to first years; it's about comparing to the market. I don't care if a first year working for me gets $100k. (Why hate on others' success?). The issue is more that some midlevels/seniors could have made more at other firms. That's why they are bummed. Weil's strategy might make sense for the firm. But still; it's easy to see why some are bummed.
As an aside, let's not lose sight of the fact that despite Weil claiming to be "exceeding" market, associates at Milbank are getting paid more at basically every hours threshold Weil established (except for extreme outliers in terms of year-to-hours spreads).
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Re: Fall bonuses
Word in my Skype chats (KE associate) is that the partners expect us to. KE deserves major heat if this doesn’t happen, but I still think our bonuses will be market year-end + DPW scale fall + the usual KE multiplier applied to at least a portion of the rest. 4th years will clear 6 figures and some very high-hour 3rd years could, too. If I’m wrong then a lot of people will be heading out in January.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:29 pmAny chance the KE associates (of which I am one) actually get trued up? If it’s private, why would the partnership do it? I would think we should give up hope we ever see that much needed money?
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Re: Fall bonuses
What you’re asking for is the Milbank scaleAnonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:31 pmIn my view, any fall bonus announcement is great. Don't want to downplay that all of this is great news. But the Weil scale doesn't make sense for a couple key reasons:
- It equates a 1st year hour with a 7th year hour. Not equivalent for multiple reasons. Obvious reason is the revenue each 7th year hour generates for the firm vs. a 1st year. "Punch in the gut" and perhaps less obvious reason for a 7th year is the internalized stress, buck stops with you, direct client pressure, direct partner pressure, substantive problem-solving time and effort, etc., that you have to take on for each matter. It's not the same.
If you want to base the bonus on hours, then actually base it on hours. Apply a multiple to hours billed as a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc., year that scales up slightly by class year. And think about an artful way to deal with vacation time and parental leave (I haven't thought that piece through, but it's worth being a little bit human about it in bonus considerations). But do not -- I repeat, do not -- pay a 7th year the same for 2100 hours as you pay a 1st year. This Weil calculus has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard about in Biglaw compensation.
- It retroactively applies higher value to vacation time taken in the last quarter vs. vacation taken earlier in the year. How the hell was I supposed to know that I should've waited until October to take vacation? I guess I know now. Not sure how parental leave factors into this either, but it's even more screwed up if your child is born in summer 2020 instead of fall 2020 and you have to take the same pay as a first year because you had a summer baby instead of a fall baby. I sure hope that's not what Weil is contemplating.
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Re: Fall bonuses
Weil's incoming associate here. Based on my observation over the last summer, BFR has been inhumanly busy long before COVID and a good portion of Corporate's deal flow comes from BFR even during good economy. So if anything BFR carries Corporate.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:50 pmNot at Weil, so I don't know this firsthand, but I don't think BFR has ever been "carried." AFAIK they were having retention issues even pre-covid because of unfailingly overworked associates, and have had to turn down work because of staffing issues.LBJ's Hair wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:26 pmI sorta feel for the Weil corporate folks. They carried the bankruptcy team in good times, then COVID hits, transaction volume dips, and now the bankruptcy people get (effectively) targeted one-time bonuses? I'd be pretty pissed. Hopefully the juniors were able to shift over to some restructuring matters.
The litigators...I dunno, this is what happens when you litigate at a corporate-first firm. (Maybe Weil lit has been busier than I expect tho)
I'm sure this is little consolation to the BFR associates whose lives have been thus consumed, but my impression is that BFR has long been (and certainly is now) the crown jewel of the firm, and has consistently spun off work to other groups.
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Re: Fall bonuses
But if this is true, then why not just pay up front? Makes no sense why the firm would get these bad headlines and piss off its associates (and I know a lot are absolutely slammed) if they're totally just going to end up paying the same anyway?Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:32 pmWord in my Skype chats (KE associate) is that the partners expect us to. KE deserves major heat if this doesn’t happen, but I still think our bonuses will be market year-end + DPW scale fall + the usual KE multiplier applied to at least a portion of the rest. 4th years will clear 6 figures and some very high-hour 3rd years could, too. If I’m wrong then a lot of people will be heading out in January.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:29 pmAny chance the KE associates (of which I am one) actually get trued up? If it’s private, why would the partnership do it? I would think we should give up hope we ever see that much needed money?
They took a shot at stemming the bonus tide and it didn't work. Now they look terrible
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