"I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..." Forum

[rayiner]

Lawyers at Mid-Career: A 20-Year Longitudinal ... - Berkeley Law: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... VwjUnftMog.

A longitudinal study of UVA grads after 20 years. 55% of men started in a large firm, and after 20 years about 30% of men were still in a large firm. For women it was about 58% and 22%.

[rpupkin]

For me, not enough. Usually 5-7 hours per night.

Out of everything that's been said, this is the dealbreaker.

I think I like big law more than most ITT, and I'd say I average closer to 5. But I've always been someone who can function reasonably well on 4-6 hours of sleep. I've noticed that some of the most unhappy people in big law are the ones who need (or think that they need) 7-9 hours of sleep per night.

[84651846190]

Lawyers at Mid-Career: A 20-Year Longitudinal ... - Berkeley Law: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... VwjUnftMog.

A longitudinal study of UVA grads after 20 years. 55% of men started in a large firm, and after 20 years about 30% of men were still in a large firm. For women it was about 58% and 22%.

I think it's safe to assume that our futures will look quite different from the people in this study: totally different economies, different cost of attendance, etc.

[Old Gregg]

For me, not enough. Usually 5-7 hours per night.

Out of everything that's been said, this is the dealbreaker.

I think I like big law more than most ITT, and I'd say I average closer to 5. But I've always been someone who can function reasonably well on 4-6 hours of sleep. I've noticed that some of the most unhappy people in big law are the ones who need (or think that they need) 7-9 hours of sleep per night.

Everyone needs at least 7 hours of sleep per night. You might be able to function the next day on significantly less, but it's not good for your long term health.

Trust me. It's not worth it. Don't harm yourself for the job.

And FYI I'm pretty happy at my job knowing I need at least 7 hours of sleep. I draw the appropriate lines at work and I'm happier every day (and my work product is good) because I'm well rested. Of course, if something important is happening, I'll pull the late/all nighter. But other than that no unnecessary self inflicted punishment.

[rayiner]

Lawyers at Mid-Career: A 20-Year Longitudinal ... - Berkeley Law: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... VwjUnftMog.

A longitudinal study of UVA grads after 20 years. 55% of men started in a large firm, and after 20 years about 30% of men were still in a large firm. For women it was about 58% and 22%.

I think it's safe to assume that our futures will look quite different from the people in this study: totally different economies, different cost of attendance, etc.

Sure, but 1990 isn't exactly ancient history. These folks saw the early 1990's legal industry recession as junior associates. Leverage ratio has gone up since then, but it's not like back in the 1970's when clients called you looking for work and making partner meant sticking around long enough.

The biggest change, I think is that Michigan's out of state tuition back then was about $20k/year, adjusted for inflation. That's a huge part of what has changed the legal industry. The various indignities of big law are easier to swallow when it's just a job, not your lifeline in the face of soul crushing debt.

[PepperJack]

I haven't started in big law yet, but so far my personal experience consists of:

1.) Interviewing with attorneys who complain it's a lot of work, but they enjoy because of the people (which may or may not be standard script).

2.) People on the interwebs who spend their free time watching porn, eating taquitos and watching beheading videos claiming the above people lack basic social skills.

Sorry to be posting in here as a 0L, but this needs to be reiterated. This has been a great thread with a lot of contributions from people with actual experience in the field. Please don't shit it up if you don't have the experience to match. Also, re: 2, learn to recognize a joke.

You're an idiot. I interviewed with about 180-200 big law attorneys in total. They all say that. It's not a joke. I'm just pointing out the only people who say they're all unbearable come from a group where 1 guy said he'd spend his time at home microwaving taquitos, and watching beheadings for hours at a time. Keep sucking up to sociopaths.

[patogordo]

anyone telling you they enjoy biglaw because of the people is a sociopath, lying, or both.

[kalvano]

ITT: PepperJack zealously defends a job he hasn't actually done yet against negative comments by people who have done it, because the possibility it might be a terrible job is too unsettling for him to contemplate.

[PepperJack]

I'm not zealously defending it. I'm sure it blows. This website provides a lot of knowledge to people applying to law school. Therefore until partners post, these big law posters are the "Jesuses" of the forum. I'm just pointing out that some knowledge might be coming from crazies who somehow got ahead while being crazies.

[84651846190]

I haven't started in big law yet, but so far my personal experience consists of:

1.) Interviewing with attorneys who complain it's a lot of work, but they enjoy because of the people (which may or may not be standard script).

2.) People on the interwebs who spend their free time watching porn, eating taquitos and watching beheading videos claiming the above people lack basic social skills.

Sorry to be posting in here as a 0L, but this needs to be reiterated. This has been a great thread with a lot of contributions from people with actual experience in the field. Please don't shit it up if you don't have the experience to match. Also, re: 2, learn to recognize a joke.

You're an idiot. I interviewed with about 180-200 big law attorneys in total. They all say that. It's not a joke. I'm just pointing out the only people who say they're all unbearable come from a group where 1 guy said he'd spend his time at home microwaving taquitos, and watching beheadings for hours at a time. Keep sucking up to sociopaths.

Okay, just to clarify for those of you who are dumb enough not to understand what is a joke: I was joking about the taquitos, porn and beheading videos.


...okay, maybe not about the taquitos.

[patogordo]

i don't think i want to work with someone who jokes about taquitos

[Cal Trask]

You're an idiot. I interviewed with about 180-200 big law attorneys in total. They all say that. It's not a joke. I'm just pointing out the only people who say they're all unbearable come from a group where 1 guy said he'd spend his time at home microwaving taquitos, and watching beheadings for hours at a time. Keep sucking up to sociopaths.

Okay, just to clarify for those of you who are dumb enough not to understand what is a joke: I was joking about the taquitos, porn and beheading videos.


...okay, maybe not about the taquitos.

nothing wrong with a little porn, dude.

[ChardPennington]

I haven't started in big law yet, but so far my personal experience consists of:

1.) Interviewing with attorneys who complain it's a lot of work, but they enjoy because of the people (which may or may not be standard script).

2.) People on the interwebs who spend their free time watching porn, eating taquitos and watching beheading videos claiming the above people lack basic social skills.

So, to be clear, you don't know what you're talking about then.

[ChardPennington]

In before pepper jack gets no offered and claims his passion was public interest all along

[TooOld4This]

I haven't started in big law yet, but so far my personal experience consists of:

1.) Interviewing with attorneys who complain it's a lot of work, but they enjoy because of the people (which may or may not be standard script).

2.) People on the interwebs who spend their free time watching porn, eating taquitos and watching beheading videos claiming the above people lack basic social skills.

Sorry to be posting in here as a 0L, but this needs to be reiterated. This has been a great thread with a lot of contributions from people with actual experience in the field. Please don't shit it up if you don't have the experience to match. Also, re: 2, learn to recognize a joke.

You're an idiot. I interviewed with about 180-200 big law attorneys in total. They all say that. It's not a joke. I'm just pointing out the only people who say they're all unbearable come from a group where 1 guy said he'd spend his time at home microwaving taquitos, and watching beheadings for hours at a time. Keep sucking up to sociopaths.

1. Interviewers are screened. You are seeing who the firm wants you to see.
2. Every attorney you meet with has an enormous incentive to make you want to work there. Remember, law firms are like Ponzi schemes. Associates need to keep up appearances. If they don't, the firm's reputation takes a hit (and so does their resume) and there won't be enough decent juniors to push work down to.
3. It's the people is the easiest white lie in the books. You can't deny the hours suck (you will hear people claim their firm is better than "typical" or peer firms though). So you need to nicen-up the story around the edges. And it's true, unless you get really unlucky, you will probably find some people that make the job bareble. And even at moments enjoyable. What is missing from that story is that these people are your life rafts in an ocean of impossible deadlines, unrealistic expectations, caustic personalities, and an opressive culture (which if it doesn't hang over everything, at least lurks around ever corner).

So yeah, "it's the people" is the easy response. And it's why you heard it fall off the lips of every one of those 180-200 attorneys you met with.

[PepperJack]

It's possible you're all right. I just don't necessarily think public defenders are all that great to be around either with the holier than thou mentality. I personally don't care who I have to deal with. I'll find the good in them. Being jobless is bad. I am also of the belief that every person has flaws, and those flaws become more prominent if you spend 12 hours a day with them.

[TooOld4This]

It's possible you're all right. I just don't necessarily think public defenders are all that great to be around either with the holier than thou mentality. I personally don't care who I have to deal with. I'll find the good in them. Being jobless is bad. I am also of the belief that every person has flaws, and those flaws become more prominent if you spend 12 hours a day with them.

For someone who claims to see the good in everyone, you sound awfully judgmental.

(And it should not be ignored that obnoxious hours and expectations can bring out the worst in even the best people. It should be no surprise that environments where lots of hours and pressure are the norm lead to complaints that the people aren't always the most pleasant to work with.)

[ChardPennington]

It's possible you're all right. I just don't necessarily think public defenders are all that great to be around either with the holier than thou mentality. I personally don't care who I have to deal with. I'll find the good in them. Being jobless is bad. I am also of the belief that every person has flaws, and those flaws become more prominent if you spend 12 hours a day with them.

Seriously please bump this thread after you are no offered and decide you are passionate about serving the indigent

[El Pollito]

Man fuck this shit.

[Lost_Dreams]

Threads such as this lead me to question if Biglaw really is that bad, or if it is the case that lots of people complain about biglaw because they went into law for the wrong reasons to begin with. I think attending a law school and going into biglaw career just to make money is not the most sound decision. There are other ways to make decent money, in lower-risk, lower-cost careers. Now, if you actually like law and you are attending law school for the carefully-thought out reasons, it should be worth the ride.

I was seriously considering law school (now.. I am torn between MBA and law school.. leaning towards MBA now), and as a result I've been lurking this board occasionally. One common mistaken point I keep stumbling over is "almost nobody with just undergrad degree ends up earning more than 100-150k yr in their career, and as a result, law school -> biglaw track is worth it despite huge debt load".

I hope this type of message is not persuading naive young people into law school. From working for several years after college, I've come across many different types of working professionals working different jobs in numerous industries... all making pretty good money. It's not just I-bankers, Management Consultants, and Biglaw attorney touching six fig salaries.

For example, my cousin works at a back office division of a bank and he now makes 120k a year, and he's been working there for only 5 years after college. One girl I went to college with works as a data analyst at an insurance company. With just 4 years of work experience after college, she's touching 96k/yr base salary. Several of the 'financial advisors' (sales people at banks, funds, etc) I know make more than twice my current salary. Heck, I am dead sure that the HR lady at my current company who's at manager level makes quite more than 100k a year and she works like 35 hours a week.

I myself make close to 90k a year, with several years of work experience in technology consulting. I didn't even major in anything technical. I majored in Econ and work on the functional side of IT consulting (business analyst), for which you don't need any coding expertise.

My general observation regarding job market: A LOT of corporate employers SALIVATE over skill-sets in the following areas: Excel, Access, and SQL. Many people claim that they are 'proficient' with Excel, but trust me, 90% of working professionals are just at basic-level ability with Excel. It takes a lot of self-training, playing with formulas, playing with large sets of data, importing data from numerous external systems into Excel and 'mapping' and 'modeling' data, and yet more training, over months on end, to really get 'decent' with Excel.

Now, with decent work experience AND strong core set of skills in Excel, Access, and SQL (all of which are very learnable by any decently competent individual), trust me, you WILL get a decent paying job on a decent career path, and for that you don't need a fancy graduate degree that cost you 250k+ with loan interest.

What I am trying to convey here is that do not resort to law school just because of the wrong belief that such path is the only realistic way to reach high-end salary in your career.

[rad lulz]

d

[patogordo]

i agree w/ most of your post but i don't see how the existence of alternative white collar career paths makes biglaw any less miserable.

[rad lulz]

d

[jbagelboy]

Threads such as this lead me to question if Biglaw really is that bad, or if it is the case that lots of people complain about biglaw because they went into law for the wrong reasons to begin with. I think attending a law school and going into biglaw career just to make money is not the most sound decision. There are other ways to make decent money, in lower-risk, lower-cost careers. Now, if you actually like law and you are attending law school for the carefully-thought out reasons, it should be worth the ride.

I was seriously considering law school (now.. I am torn between MBA and law school.. leaning towards MBA now), and as a result I've been lurking this board occasionally. One common mistaken point I keep stumbling over is "almost nobody with just undergrad degree ends up earning more than 100-150k yr in their career, and as a result, law school -> biglaw track is worth it despite huge debt load".

I hope this type of message is not persuading naive young people into law school. From working for several years after college, I've come across many different types of working professionals working different jobs in numerous industries... all making pretty good money. It's not just I-bankers, Management Consultants, and Biglaw attorney touching six fig salaries.

For example, my cousin works at a back office division of a bank and he now makes 120k a year, and he's been working there for only 5 years after college. One girl I went to college with works as a data analyst at an insurance company. With just 4 years of work experience after college, she's touching 96k/yr base salary. Several of the 'financial advisors' (sales people at banks, funds, etc) I know make more than twice my current salary. Heck, I am dead sure that the HR lady at my current company who's at manager level makes quite more than 100k a year and she works like 35 hours a week.

I myself make close to 90k a year, with several years of work experience in technology consulting. I didn't even major in anything technical. I majored in Econ and work on the functional side of IT consulting (business analyst), for which you don't need any coding expertise.

My general observation regarding job market: A LOT of corporate employers SALIVATE over skill-sets in the following areas: Excel, Access, and SQL. Many people claim that they are 'proficient' with Excel, but trust me, 90% of working professionals are just at basic-level ability with Excel. It takes a lot of self-training, playing with formulas, playing with large sets of data, importing data from numerous external systems into Excel and 'mapping' and 'modeling' data, and yet more training, over months on end, to really get 'decent' with Excel.

Now, with decent work experience AND strong core set of skills in Excel, Access, and SQL (all of which are very learnable by any decently competent individual), trust me, you WILL get a decent paying job on a decent career path, and for that you don't need a fancy graduate degree that cost you 250k+ with loan interest.

What I am trying to convey here is that do not resort to law school just because of the wrong belief that such path is the only realistic way to reach high-end salary in your career.

lol this is an awfully rosy picture my bro. There are far less of these "data analyst" or it consult type jobs opening up each year than there are fresh college grads from good schools, and if you're a few years out without concrete experience (as are up to 50% who graduated at the height of the recession), you won't even get an interview.

[ChardPennington]

I can't do dick with excel and don't even know what SQL is so it looks like I made the right call on law school