V15 Partner/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions... Forum

[Anonymous User]

Do firms mind paying for you to come back and do an offer visit? Do they understand if its hard to make up your mind?

[Anonymous User]

What's the best way that somebody can make it come across during a callback that the firm is by far his top choice of firms (and he would take accept an offer on the spot from them)?

[Anonymous User]

Is there really so stark a difference in selectivity between firms ranked V25 and higher and those ranked lower, say in the 25-75 range? I am a CCN transfer coming from a T25 school, and I have a bunch of CB's through OCI and mass mailing (9 with Vault firms, and about 10 from large regional, secondary market firms, etc.) Yet I sort of assumed (based on knowledge from last year's class) that I would have a serious shot at some V25 firms. I interviewed with 13 of the V25, and got all of 0 CB's. Yet I'm not a bad interviewer, as evidenced by the 9 Vault CB's I have, and 19 CB's overall. Any reason you can think of for this striking disparity? I could tell you anything you wanted to know about my background, grades, personality, but none of it would seem to explain the disparity, since these factors were consistent regardless of the interview.

Frankly, yes. Maybe not towards the lower end (or maybe yes, depending). Vault is of course not a perfect proxy; I guarantee no one who ends up at Cadwalader this summer (33) would make the cut at Munger Tolles (34). But the credentials necessary to get a callback at DLA Piper are not anywhere in the same league as Skadden, Latham, Paul Weiss, W&C, etc.

Again - Vault is not necessarily a great proxy (there are some firms in the V25 that I suspect it's MUCH easier to get a job at than others, though with pretty good reason).

When you say "credentials" how important are the credentials aside from grades and school? I have great grades (somewhere between top 5 and 10%) at MVP and chose to interview mostly with elite firms at OCI. I didn't really care too much about firm prestige; my rationale was mainly there wouldn't be as much competition at the top as for the median firms (looking like a bad assumption). Anyway, my OCI ended up going pretty badly and I'm trying to figure out how much of it was bad interviewing and how much of it was my mediocre non-grades related credentials (shitty/average WE, very shitty undergrad, secondary journal). Do people who fit my profile normally not receive callbacks? Case-by-case?

[itbdvorm]

Is there really so stark a difference in selectivity between firms ranked V25 and higher and those ranked lower, say in the 25-75 range? I am a CCN transfer coming from a T25 school, and I have a bunch of CB's through OCI and mass mailing (9 with Vault firms, and about 10 from large regional, secondary market firms, etc.) Yet I sort of assumed (based on knowledge from last year's class) that I would have a serious shot at some V25 firms. I interviewed with 13 of the V25, and got all of 0 CB's. Yet I'm not a bad interviewer, as evidenced by the 9 Vault CB's I have, and 19 CB's overall. Any reason you can think of for this striking disparity? I could tell you anything you wanted to know about my background, grades, personality, but none of it would seem to explain the disparity, since these factors were consistent regardless of the interview.

Frankly, yes. Maybe not towards the lower end (or maybe yes, depending). Vault is of course not a perfect proxy; I guarantee no one who ends up at Cadwalader this summer (33) would make the cut at Munger Tolles (34). But the credentials necessary to get a callback at DLA Piper are not anywhere in the same league as Skadden, Latham, Paul Weiss, W&C, etc.

Again - Vault is not necessarily a great proxy (there are some firms in the V25 that I suspect it's MUCH easier to get a job at than others, though with pretty good reason).

Wow, I'm surprised its so strictly tied to grades with so little, if any, variance. I figured that, by virtue of transferring to a lottery-system OCI school, the ability to get facetime and show a good personality and "fit" would be enough to get 1 or 2 of those V25 firms. My grades were on the lower end for a transfer (closer to top 10% in my class than top 5%), but since all these V25's interview at my old school, I figured that the facetime alone would get me some CB's, especially since I'm a good interviewer (again, not my opinion, but reflected by the number of CB's, albeit from firms outside the V25, and many non-Vault firms). I wish I had known this in advance and I would have completely refrained from bidding on V25 firms, though the chance to bid on them was one of the main reasons why I transferred.

I thought you said they interviewed at your old school? Would you not have met the credentials necessary to interview with them at your old school? They're still your credentials, even if you've transferred...facetime can't change that.

[itbdvorm]

What would you say are the biggest factors that might cause someone to do well at getting callbacks out of OCI, but poorly at translating those callbacks into offers? Just curious, sorry if it's too broad a question or outside your purview.

Hard to say for sure. Were you more interested in OCI? Are you not as well prepared on callbacks? Interviewers may be less inclined to tell you basic things about the firm as opposed to more in-depth questions showing that you've done your homework.

[itbdvorm]

Do firms mind paying for you to come back and do an offer visit? Do they understand if its hard to make up your mind?

Mind? Not really. Though there's a difference between coming back and "milking" the process

[itbdvorm]

What's the best way that somebody can make it come across during a callback that the firm is by far his top choice of firms (and he would take accept an offer on the spot from them)?

Do your research and ask intelligent questions about firm-specific things. For example, instead of asking someone at Cravath about the rotation system, ask them what they've found to be the pros and cons of it. Show, don't tell...

[itbdvorm]

Is there really so stark a difference in selectivity between firms ranked V25 and higher and those ranked lower, say in the 25-75 range? I am a CCN transfer coming from a T25 school, and I have a bunch of CB's through OCI and mass mailing (9 with Vault firms, and about 10 from large regional, secondary market firms, etc.) Yet I sort of assumed (based on knowledge from last year's class) that I would have a serious shot at some V25 firms. I interviewed with 13 of the V25, and got all of 0 CB's. Yet I'm not a bad interviewer, as evidenced by the 9 Vault CB's I have, and 19 CB's overall. Any reason you can think of for this striking disparity? I could tell you anything you wanted to know about my background, grades, personality, but none of it would seem to explain the disparity, since these factors were consistent regardless of the interview.

Frankly, yes. Maybe not towards the lower end (or maybe yes, depending). Vault is of course not a perfect proxy; I guarantee no one who ends up at Cadwalader this summer (33) would make the cut at Munger Tolles (34). But the credentials necessary to get a callback at DLA Piper are not anywhere in the same league as Skadden, Latham, Paul Weiss, W&C, etc.

Again - Vault is not necessarily a great proxy (there are some firms in the V25 that I suspect it's MUCH easier to get a job at than others, though with pretty good reason).

When you say "credentials" how important are the credentials aside from grades and school? I have great grades (somewhere between top 5 and 10%) at MVP and chose to interview mostly with elite firms at OCI. I didn't really care too much about firm prestige; my rationale was mainly there wouldn't be as much competition at the top as for the median firms (looking like a bad assumption). Anyway, my OCI ended up going pretty badly and I'm trying to figure out how much of it was bad interviewing and how much of it was my mediocre non-grades related credentials (shitty/average WE, very shitty undergrad, secondary journal). Do people who fit my profile normally not receive callbacks? Case-by-case?

This is again a complicated question. I don't know what you're defining "elite" as but there are certainly firms for which your grades / lack of LR would probably not be good enough (I'm not sure for ours; I don't know % cutoffs off the top of my head). This was probably a pretty poor assumption on your end though I'm not sure where you're drawing your delineations (sorry). But might not be too late to try mass mailing your resume to some of the "median" firms you mention, and again, hustle hustle hustle and talk to career services / profs.

As for your underlying question, it's very much case-by-case. I don't know how shitty we're talking but depending on who you're meeting with it could hurt. Bigger issue is that it definitely doesn't help - if a peer of yours has similar stats but top school honors / worked at bulge bracket bank/consulting firm in the interim, yeah, that peer may be seen a little more positively.

[Anonymous User]

This is again a complicated question. I don't know what you're defining "elite" as but there are certainly firms for which your grades / lack of LR would probably not be good enough (I'm not sure for ours; I don't know % cutoffs off the top of my head). This was probably a pretty poor assumption on your end though I'm not sure where you're drawing your delineations (sorry). But might not be too late to try mass mailing your resume to some of the "median" firms you mention, and again, hustle hustle hustle and talk to career services / profs.

As for your underlying question, it's very much case-by-case. I don't know how shitty we're talking but depending on who you're meeting with it could hurt. Bigger issue is that it definitely doesn't help - if a peer of yours has similar stats but top school honors / worked at bulge bracket bank/consulting firm in the interim, yeah, that peer may be seen a little more positively.

Well, I guess by elite I guess I meant firms with a median GPA offer rate of 3.5-3.65ish at my school (my GPA was above 3.7). Maybe having such a high GPA with no LR raises a red flag? I didn't interview exclusively with those firms but they probably made up a majority.

Thanks for the info.

[itbdvorm]

This is again a complicated question. I don't know what you're defining "elite" as but there are certainly firms for which your grades / lack of LR would probably not be good enough (I'm not sure for ours; I don't know % cutoffs off the top of my head). This was probably a pretty poor assumption on your end though I'm not sure where you're drawing your delineations (sorry). But might not be too late to try mass mailing your resume to some of the "median" firms you mention, and again, hustle hustle hustle and talk to career services / profs.

As for your underlying question, it's very much case-by-case. I don't know how shitty we're talking but depending on who you're meeting with it could hurt. Bigger issue is that it definitely doesn't help - if a peer of yours has similar stats but top school honors / worked at bulge bracket bank/consulting firm in the interim, yeah, that peer may be seen a little more positively.

Well, I guess by elite I guess I meant firms with a median GPA offer rate of 3.5-3.65ish at my school (my GPA was above 3.7). Maybe having such a high GPA with no LR raises a red flag? I didn't interview exclusively with those firms but they probably made up a majority.

Thanks for the info.

LR might be a requirement, though there is, frankly, another possibility - you may not be a great interview (sorry). If their median is below your GPA and you're not getting many offers, you may not have come across great with them...

[Anonymous User]

This is again a complicated question. I don't know what you're defining "elite" as but there are certainly firms for which your grades / lack of LR would probably not be good enough (I'm not sure for ours; I don't know % cutoffs off the top of my head). This was probably a pretty poor assumption on your end though I'm not sure where you're drawing your delineations (sorry). But might not be too late to try mass mailing your resume to some of the "median" firms you mention, and again, hustle hustle hustle and talk to career services / profs.

As for your underlying question, it's very much case-by-case. I don't know how shitty we're talking but depending on who you're meeting with it could hurt. Bigger issue is that it definitely doesn't help - if a peer of yours has similar stats but top school honors / worked at bulge bracket bank/consulting firm in the interim, yeah, that peer may be seen a little more positively.

Well, I guess by elite I guess I meant firms with a median GPA offer rate of 3.5-3.65ish at my school (my GPA was above 3.7). Maybe having such a high GPA with no LR raises a red flag? I didn't interview exclusively with those firms but they probably made up a majority.

Thanks for the info.

LR might be a requirement, though there is, frankly, another possibility - you may not be a great interview (sorry). If their median is below your GPA and you're not getting many offers, you may not have come across great with them...[/quote

Oh yeah, I definitely think that's the dispositive factor, just was actually looking (and frankly, ego-wise, hoping) that there were things that are now beyond my control influencing the bad results.

I actually reached out to one of my interviewers, and she let me know while she thought our interview was great, I just didn't seem like the Biglaw "type." In other words, nothing that I really said was wrong, just "fit" wasn't right. Unfortunately this mostly based on my manner and it seems difficult to correct. Do you deal with this often? Any suggestions?

Thanks again.

[itbdvorm]

This is again a complicated question. I don't know what you're defining "elite" as but there are certainly firms for which your grades / lack of LR would probably not be good enough (I'm not sure for ours; I don't know % cutoffs off the top of my head). This was probably a pretty poor assumption on your end though I'm not sure where you're drawing your delineations (sorry). But might not be too late to try mass mailing your resume to some of the "median" firms you mention, and again, hustle hustle hustle and talk to career services / profs.

As for your underlying question, it's very much case-by-case. I don't know how shitty we're talking but depending on who you're meeting with it could hurt. Bigger issue is that it definitely doesn't help - if a peer of yours has similar stats but top school honors / worked at bulge bracket bank/consulting firm in the interim, yeah, that peer may be seen a little more positively.

Well, I guess by elite I guess I meant firms with a median GPA offer rate of 3.5-3.65ish at my school (my GPA was above 3.7). Maybe having such a high GPA with no LR raises a red flag? I didn't interview exclusively with those firms but they probably made up a majority.

Thanks for the info.

LR might be a requirement, though there is, frankly, another possibility - you may not be a great interview (sorry). If their median is below your GPA and you're not getting many offers, you may not have come across great with them...

Oh yeah, I definitely think that's the dispositive factor, just was actually looking (and frankly, ego-wise, hoping) that there were things that are now beyond my control influencing the bad results.

I actually reached out to one of my interviewers, and she let me know while she thought our interview was great, I just didn't seem like the Biglaw "type." In other words, nothing that I really said was wrong, just "fit" wasn't right. Unfortunately this mostly based on my manner and it seems difficult to correct. Do you deal with this often? Any suggestions?

Thanks again.[/quote]

How were you dressed? Conservatively or unshaven/beard, bright colors, "different" suit? What sort of prior WE do you have? Lots of PI? Questions about pro bono?

[Anonymous User]

Suggestions for what to ask on offer visits? Can firms tell if an offeree is really undecided/has made up their mind?

[itbdvorm]

Suggestions for what to ask on offer visits? Can firms tell if an offeree is really undecided/has made up their mind?

Talk to people in the group you want to be in, preferably young folks. Ask what they do. See if they're happy. Ask what they think you should know if they were in your shoes.

I'm guessing that we usually can't tell for sure (but can tell if you're wasting our time).

[Anonymous User]

What would you say are the biggest factors that might cause someone to do well at getting callbacks out of OCI, but poorly at translating those callbacks into offers? Just curious, sorry if it's too broad a question or outside your purview.

Hard to say for sure. Were you more interested in OCI? Are you not as well prepared on callbacks? Interviewers may be less inclined to tell you basic things about the firm as opposed to more in-depth questions showing that you've done your homework.

Thanks for the response. This is sort of what I'm thinking is the case. Juggling school obligations with callbacks has made it hard to stay fresh and have the same level of enthusiasm. Was just wondering if there were common reasons a firm might be excited about someone as a prospect at OCI and then have them fall short later.

[Anonymous User]

Offer from a V5 in NY, but interested in DC. Can I ask them about their DC office? Offer deadline approaching. Bad form/look bad on me if I end up accepting the NY offer (they'll know I want to be in DC instead).

[Anonymous User]

Can I ask you your salary? I was just wondering what a senior associate would make. Can you at least gives us a range if you can't go into specific numbers?

[Anonymous User]

How much of a say do the interviewers (partners/associates) have in the actual hiring process? I mean after you interview with them, don't you still have to go through a hiring committee process?

[Anonymous User]

Do the definite CB nos get a rejection letter quickly? If someone doesn't hear back from a big firm for weeks mean they might be on the wait list?

Also, do you recommend sending the recruiter a letter of continued interest if you have not heard back according to the deadline you were given?

[Heartford]

Seems like a silly question, but it's the internet so I'll go ahead and ask it:

What's the process for determining who gets a callback? I ask because some firms had multiple interviewers conducting separate interviews simultaneously on my campus. Does each interviewer decide which of the candidates with whom she spoke will receive a callback? Is there some kind of meeting? How are these decisions made?

[LawWeb]

Seems like a silly question, but it's the internet so I'll go ahead and ask it:

What's the process for determining who gets a callback? I ask because some firms had multiple interviewers conducting separate interviews simultaneously on my campus. Does each interviewer decide which of the candidates with whom she spoke will receive a callback? Is there some kind of meeting? How are these decisions made?

To tack onto this, I'd be interested to know the post-callback process. A host of different lawyers talk to dozens (or more) candidates. Does each interviewer "score" the candidate after the interview, and it is raw score? Do they really remember each individual and have a conversation later with all those atty's together?

[itbdvorm]

Offer from a V5 in NY, but interested in DC. Can I ask them about their DC office? Offer deadline approaching. Bad form/look bad on me if I end up accepting the NY offer (they'll know I want to be in DC instead).

What do you mean by "interested" in DC? Only want to work in DC or have thoughts about it? You could ask them if splits w/other offices are possible because that's one way to get down there. But be warned, in general DC standards are higher than NY standards. You may be better off summering in NY and killing it / trying to switch later. Good luck.

[itbdvorm]

Can I ask you your salary? I was just wondering what a senior associate would make. Can you at least gives us a range if you can't go into specific numbers?

I will say that, while I'm not at this firm, the New York, etc., base salaries listed in this article appear correct (my salary is what is set forth for my class year in this article):

http://abovethelaw.com/2011/04/associat ... eze-scale/

[itbdvorm]

How much of a say do the interviewers (partners/associates) have in the actual hiring process? I mean after you interview with them, don't you still have to go through a hiring committee process?

Huge, at least for us. Hiring committee bases decisions upon interviewers' reactions to candidates.

[itbdvorm]

Do the definite CB nos get a rejection letter quickly? If someone doesn't hear back from a big firm for weeks mean they might be on the wait list?

Also, do you recommend sending the recruiter a letter of continued interest if you have not heard back according to the deadline you were given?

Maybe, yes, yes.