Milbank/Davis Polk/Cravath Scale: NYC to 215-415k Forum

[Anonymous User]

Probably bc they moved the ranking thread to admissions section where you can't post anon.

[BrowsingTLS]

Why TF are we debating the USNWR rankings on a thread about salaries? Even worse than the K&E bro hijacks.

It's pathetic and made me hate this forum all of a sudden.

What the fuck is wrong with adult fucking lawyers that we're arguing about the prestige of LAW SCHOOLS?! Presumably the people in this thread are done with law school. Who gives a shit if Harvard/Yale/Columbia/etc. is number 1, 2, 3, or 4 out of 200+ law schools.

This is a thread about salaries.

edit: what makes it worse is people with no quoting etiquitte, who are quoting every possible part of the discussion instead of cutting it down before posting. At the very least spare us having to do extra scrolling through the same discussion about an off-topic issue.

[Anonymous User]

Agree. I hate the law school talk in the employment forum.

I'd rather work at any V100 firm in any practice area than go back to law school. I'd even rather work at Jones Day and get black boxed into the poorhouse. Why? Because I'm gaining skills and getting paid. I went to Chicago and it was miserable. The professors were insufferable and mainly interested in indoctrinating us into sharing their worldview/opinions. The students all thought they'd be a senator one day, yet were unlikeable and could barely make eye contact. It was a shithole I'd prefer to never debate the merits of.

Let's get back to firms that, you know, actually do law.

[Anonymous User]

I mean preftige aside, it’s still true that Stanford and Yale have more in common with Chicago than Harvard, which was the point? I think the older HLS grads may not realize this because Chicago turning into a clerkship powerhouse is a pretty recent phenomenon—its first year as #1 for clerkships (and also beating HLS at SCOTUS despite its size) was just last year. It also comfortably beats HLS, as does YLS, in per-capita academia. While most students at HLS may not care about such things, that again shows a cultural difference that puts it closer to CLS.

I think it must be a cultural thing. There is absolutely no clerkship or academia culture at HLS. Those students who want those things get them (clerkships at least), but the vast majority of students are focused on being working attorneys, either in biglaw/government/PI/whatever. It's not clear to me why the group of former 3.9/173 students who all want to write "scholarship" are better than the former 3.9/173 students who want to practice law.

[Anonymous User]

I mean preftige aside, it’s still true that Stanford and Yale have more in common with Chicago than Harvard, which was the point? I think the older HLS grads may not realize this because Chicago turning into a clerkship powerhouse is a pretty recent phenomenon—its first year as #1 for clerkships (and also beating HLS at SCOTUS despite its size) was just last year. It also comfortably beats HLS, as does YLS, in per-capita academia. While most students at HLS may not care about such things, that again shows a cultural difference that puts it closer to CLS.

I think it must be a cultural thing. There is absolutely no clerkship or academia culture at HLS. Those students who want those things get them (clerkships at least), but the vast majority of students are focused on being working attorneys, either in biglaw/government/PI/whatever. It's not clear to me why the group of former 3.9/173 students who all want to write "scholarship" are better than the former 3.9/173 students who want to practice law.

Seriously, no one cares. You're probably arguing with yourself as different anonymous to make it seem like actual attorneys care about law school rankings.

[Anonymous User]

Finnegan Henderson just got the worst deal besides from no raise at all, I think. Salary stays the same (old scale) but associates get a retroactive Cravath match upon confirmation of meeting the 2000 billable hour requirement at the end of the billing year ("match" gets paid out sometime Q4). This is for EVERY YEAR. So basically you can only leave in January each year or else you get cheated out of money for all the work you did previously. Associates are rightfully pissed.

[Anonymous User]

lol at the idea of Skadden being selective.

Presumably you mean NYC, but you would need to clarify which region for this to be remotely helpful bc this is not the case at my t14 (and know it’s not true in the south and west)

Everybody who posts a sweeping statement is referring to M&A practice in NYC and/or their experience at either Harvard or Columbia. The rest of the world does not exist to them.

HYS has been replaced with HC

Because these are the most common kind. More like CCN has been replaced by HCN. with YS are in a different tier. Harvard is far closer to Columbia in every aspect than Yale Stanford or even Chicago.

This is true, but doesn’t mean anything about prestige or w/e—HLS is very large and doesn’t have a particularly notable focus on academia or clerkship rate, unlike YSC but like CN.

It's silly to criticize a school because it has the most AmLaw 100 partners, the most students fed into tenured prof positions, the most politicians, the most Federal Judges, the most students doing interesting things outside of traditional law jobs, the second-highest amount of SCOTUS clerks, AND four Justices, as opposed to being a school that has a "notable focus" on two of the categories.

Harvard has more of everything. If you combined Yale and Columbia you'd have Harvard. Harvard has more prestige than USNWR will ever have. Ranking methodologies and publications come and go. When Harvard's ranking drops the only reputation at risk is the reputation of USNWR.

lollll so cute. You have the highest # of everything because it admits the most people. Funny a diploma mill compares itself to the prestige of Harvard undergrad or Yale law. Yes, Harvard has immense prestige. That Harvard is Harvard college, not diploma mill Harvard law.

[Anonymous User]

Everybody who posts a sweeping statement is referring to M&A practice in NYC and/or their experience at either Harvard or Columbia. The rest of the world does not exist to them.

HYS has been replaced with HC

Because these are the most common kind. More like CCN has been replaced by HCN. with YS are in a different tier. Harvard is far closer to Columbia in every aspect than Yale Stanford or even Chicago.

This is true, but doesn’t mean anything about prestige or w/e—HLS is very large and doesn’t have a particularly notable focus on academia or clerkship rate, unlike YSC but like CN.

It's silly to criticize a school because it has the most AmLaw 100 partners, the most students fed into tenured prof positions, the most politicians, the most Federal Judges, the most students doing interesting things outside of traditional law jobs, the second-highest amount of SCOTUS clerks, AND four Justices, as opposed to being a school that has a "notable focus" on two of the categories.

Harvard has more of everything. If you combined Yale and Columbia you'd have Harvard. Harvard has more prestige than USNWR will ever have. Ranking methodologies and publications come and go. When Harvard's ranking drops the only reputation at risk is the reputation of USNWR.

Lol at this screed to a post that explicitly wasn’t about prestige—protesting a bit too much. And yes, HLS is three times bigger than YSC, that’s the point.

Why Harvard gets so much hate in this forum? My perspective from an HLS grad senior associate. These two seem to be the main reasons.
1. It's a big, but selective school. If you don't have the right grades and scores, you simply don't have a shot. These days, even the ones with the right scores don't get in. Obviously the ones that didn't have a shot or got rejected don't like the school, especially more so because they assumed, given the larger size, there may be spots for them. Also, people just hate how much weight is given to hard factors (test scores and GPAs) in the admissions process because they can't change those things.
2. Due to the larger size, we do have our proportionately larger share of assholes. Looking at it this way, it's similar to the hate K&E often gets in this forum.

[Anonymous User]

Everybody who posts a sweeping statement is referring to M&A practice in NYC and/or their experience at either Harvard or Columbia. The rest of the world does not exist to them.

HYS has been replaced with HC

Because these are the most common kind. More like CCN has been replaced by HCN. with YS are in a different tier. Harvard is far closer to Columbia in every aspect than Yale Stanford or even Chicago.

This is true, but doesn’t mean anything about prestige or w/e—HLS is very large and doesn’t have a particularly notable focus on academia or clerkship rate, unlike YSC but like CN.

It's silly to criticize a school because it has the most AmLaw 100 partners, the most students fed into tenured prof positions, the most politicians, the most Federal Judges, the most students doing interesting things outside of traditional law jobs, the second-highest amount of SCOTUS clerks, AND four Justices, as opposed to being a school that has a "notable focus" on two of the categories.

Harvard has more of everything. If you combined Yale and Columbia you'd have Harvard. Harvard has more prestige than USNWR will ever have. Ranking methodologies and publications come and go. When Harvard's ranking drops the only reputation at risk is the reputation of USNWR.

Lol at this screed to a post that explicitly wasn’t about prestige—protesting a bit too much. And yes, HLS is three times bigger than YSC, that’s the point.

Why Harvard gets so much hate in this forum? My perspective from an HLS grad senior associate. These two seem to be the main reasons.
1. It's a big, but selective school. If you don't have the right grades and scores, you simply don't have a shot. These days, even the ones with the right scores don't get in. Obviously the ones that didn't have a shot or got rejected don't like the school, especially more so because they assumed, given the larger size, there may be spots for them. Also, people just hate how much weight is given to hard factors (test scores and GPAs) in the admissions process because they can't change those things.
2. Due to the larger size, we do have our proportionately larger share of assholes. Looking at it this way, it's similar to the hate K&E often gets in this forum.

Big? Yes. Selective? Not really. Anyone with the right numbers get in. The only exception was last year when there was a flood of high lsats.

People have problems with Harvard Law not because of hate, but because most Harvard Law kids are essentially non distinguishable from the rest of the T14 students (aced a couple of more classes and got a couple of more questions right on the lsat), but act like they are on a different level from the non HYS students and belong to the same exclusive table with YS students. The fact is H is not close to YS at all but much closer to the rest of the pack, and you don’t even see YS students act this cocky.

Harvard undergrad Business school and med school are actually very selective. They students there are of much better quality and therefore more humble, so they don’t get this much hate.

[Anonymous User]

Why Harvard gets so much hate in this forum? My perspective from an HLS grad senior associate. These two seem to be the main reasons.

1. It's a big, but selective school. If you don't have the right grades and scores, you simply don't have a shot. These days, even the ones with the right scores don't get in. Obviously the ones that didn't have a shot or got rejected don't like the school, especially more so because they assumed, given the larger size, there may be spots for them. Also, people just hate how much weight is given to hard factors (test scores and GPAs) in the admissions process because they can't change those things.

Yes, this is true (from a fellow HLS grad senior associate). People tend to take their HLS rejection a lot harder than say Y or S. People don't get mad at a Yale rejection or even a Stanford rejection because they figure the classes are small and admission is dependent on factors beyond pure numbers. People with the requisite numbers tend to feel entitled to a Harvard acceptance. This might also explain why the loudest hate tend to come from Columbia and Chicago grads. I've also presumed it's because a lot of people who end up at Columbia/Chicago think they were robbed of a spot at HLS.

HLS and CLS/Chicago/NYU students are almost of identical caliber, but HLS students insist they are closer to YS because their name has Harvard in it, however nominal that is.

[Anonymous User]

HYS has been replaced with HC

Because these are the most common kind. More like CCN has been replaced by HCN. with YS are in a different tier. Harvard is far closer to Columbia in every aspect than Yale Stanford or even Chicago.

Backed up by new US news rankings.

Well Harvard is still more selective than Chicago and Columbia (and in terms of medians still beats Stanford), but who knows how long that will last.

Harvard is still Harvard.

Btw, HBS also fell out of top 3 in the MBA rankings. Columbia surprisingly made it to top 3 in the undergrad rankings. Maybe there's something wrong with this year's US News rankings.

Harvard has never been Harvard in the law school world.

I don't even know what you are trying to say. US News has not been ranking Harvard 1 in many other fields (e.g. MBA, undergrad) either

In other fields Harvard is usually both the most selective and the best school. In law Y and Y are definitely better by a landslide and anyone with a community college degree who flipped burgers at McDonald’s can get in HLS with requisite numbers.

[Anonymous User]

Finnegan Henderson just got the worst deal besides from no raise at all, I think. Salary stays the same (old scale) but associates get a retroactive Cravath match upon confirmation of meeting the 2000 billable hour requirement at the end of the billing year ("match" gets paid out sometime Q4). This is for EVERY YEAR. So basically you can only leave in January each year or else you get cheated out of money for all the work you did previously. Associates are rightfully pissed.

That sucks but having to stay until January or else losing out on a huge chunk of comp is already par for the course in biglaw. This is taking it to another level though.

[Anonymous User]

Finnegan Henderson just got the worst deal besides from no raise at all, I think. Salary stays the same (old scale) but associates get a retroactive Cravath match upon confirmation of meeting the 2000 billable hour requirement at the end of the billing year ("match" gets paid out sometime Q4). This is for EVERY YEAR. So basically you can only leave in January each year or else you get cheated out of money for all the work you did previously. Associates are rightfully pissed.

That sucks but having to stay until January or else losing out on a huge chunk of comp is already par for the course in biglaw. This is taking it to another level though.

Also to clarify, Finnegan doesn't have lockstep bonuses. I think that's what you're referring to by "huge chunk of comp." Waiting till January for bonuses makes sense - associates who are there the entire year should be rewarded - but waiting for January to pay out salary to which you are entitled is why it feels so egregious, I think.

[Anonymous User]

I don't think a lot of people hate HLS. But in the biglaw context (that this thread was discussing pre-hijack), pretty much no one cares that HLS grads went to HLS instead of CCN.

[Anonymous User]

I don't think a lot of people hate HLS. But in the biglaw context (that this thread was discussing pre-hijack), pretty much no one cares that HLS grads went to HLS instead of CCN.

^ Poster: HLS is an arbitrary distinction in biglaw
Also ^ Poster: *draws arbitrary distinction of CCN*

[Anonymous User]

I don't think a lot of people hate HLS. But in the biglaw context (that this thread was discussing pre-hijack), pretty much no one cares that HLS grads went to HLS instead of CCN.

As a senior associate that switched firms a few times, I confirm that for midlevels and above, nobody cares about which school somebody went to, not just HLS. Nobody cares if you went to Stanford for law school either. Or Chicago. Yale, admittedly, can get you some attention just because they are so rare. However, for juniors trying to lateral, because they have little experience under their belt, where they went to school and their school grades still do matter to some extent.

[LBJ's Hair]

I don't think a lot of people hate HLS. But in the biglaw context (that this thread was discussing pre-hijack), pretty much no one cares that HLS grads went to HLS instead of CCN.

As a senior associate that switched firms a few times, I confirm that for midlevels and above, nobody cares about which school somebody went to, not just HLS. Nobody cares if you went to Stanford for law school either. Or Chicago. Yale, admittedly, can get you some attention just because they are so rare. However, for juniors trying to lateral, because they have little experience under their belt, where they went to school and their school grades still do matter to some extent.

lol

[Anonymous User]

I don't think a lot of people hate HLS. But in the biglaw context (that this thread was discussing pre-hijack), pretty much no one cares that HLS grads went to HLS instead of CCN.

As a senior associate that switched firms a few times, I confirm that for midlevels and above, nobody cares about which school somebody went to, not just HLS. Nobody cares if you went to Stanford for law school either. Or Chicago. Yale, admittedly, can get you some attention just because they are so rare. However, for juniors trying to lateral, because they have little experience under their belt, where they went to school and their school grades still do matter to some extent.

This is totally false, by the way. There are definitely firms who absolutely care about what schools you went to, as a proxy for intelligence, marketability to clients and what not. Go scan through the websites of DPW/Cleary/STB or whatever and see what schools laterals went to. Certainly not a random distribution,

[Anonymous User]

I don't think a lot of people hate HLS. But in the biglaw context (that this thread was discussing pre-hijack), pretty much no one cares that HLS grads went to HLS instead of CCN.

As a senior associate that switched firms a few times, I confirm that for midlevels and above, nobody cares about which school somebody went to, not just HLS. Nobody cares if you went to Stanford for law school either. Or Chicago. Yale, admittedly, can get you some attention just because they are so rare. However, for juniors trying to lateral, because they have little experience under their belt, where they went to school and their school grades still do matter to some extent.

This is totally false, by the way. There are definitely firms who absolutely care about what schools you went to, as a proxy for intelligence, marketability to clients and what not. Go scan through the websites of DPW/Cleary/STB or whatever and see what schools laterals went to. Certainly not a random distribution,

Correlation does not equal causation. DPW/STB etc. hire laterals from peer firms. Those peer firms pick their summers from top law schools. Thus, their laterals tend to be from top schools.

If you think that a HLS 5th year at cravath has an advantage lateraling to DPW over a Fordham 5th year at cravath simply because he went to law school at Harvard - you’re dead wrong. At that point, it’s going to be about need/fit/personality.

[Anonymous User]

I don't think a lot of people hate HLS. But in the biglaw context (that this thread was discussing pre-hijack), pretty much no one cares that HLS grads went to HLS instead of CCN.

^ Poster: HLS is an arbitrary distinction in biglaw
Also ^ Poster: *draws arbitrary distinction of CCN*

Not an arbitrary distinction -- CCN are core recruiting targets for top biglaw firms. Clearly firms do care about law school prestige. You could say Penn or Duke or whatever is same as CCN, maybe that's correct, but my point is that most folks in Biglaw are not drawing a big distinction between HLS and the next few schools

[Anonymous User]

aaaanyway who do we think is gonna match next?

[Anonymous User]

aaaanyway who do we think is gonna match next?

Who hasn't yet? The rest are going to either trickle in eventually or won't.

[Anonymous User]

aaaanyway who do we think is gonna match next?

Heard that HLS is gonna match for all alums who have not gotten a raise. Gotta make sure we go back to saying “HYS” next year.

[Anonymous User]

aaaanyway who do we think is gonna match next?

Who hasn't yet? The rest are going to either trickle in eventually or won't.

GT hasn’t

[Anonymous User]

aaaanyway who do we think is gonna match next?

Who hasn't yet? The rest are going to either trickle in eventually or won't.

GT hasn’t

You would think the Britney Spears and Katy Perry money would be rollin' in!