Milbank/Davis Polk/Cravath Scale: NYC to 215-415k Forum

[Anonymous User]

lol at the idea of Skadden being selective.

Presumably you mean NYC, but you would need to clarify which region for this to be remotely helpful bc this is not the case at my t14 (and know it’s not true in the south and west)

Everybody who posts a sweeping statement is referring to M&A practice in NYC and/or their experience at either Harvard or Columbia. The rest of the world does not exist to them.

HYS has been replaced with HC

Because these are the most common kind. More like CCN has been replaced by HCN. with YS are in a different tier. Harvard is far closer to Columbia in every aspect than Yale Stanford or even Chicago.

Backed up by new US news rankings.

Well Harvard is still more selective than Chicago and Columbia (and in terms of medians still beats Stanford), but who knows how long that will last.

Harvard has never been a lot more selective than Chicago and Columbia and has always been lightyears behind Yale and Stanford in terms of selectivity. The HYS grouping never made sense but for Harvard's lay prestige.

[Anonymous User]

lol at the idea of Skadden being selective.

Presumably you mean NYC, but you would need to clarify which region for this to be remotely helpful bc this is not the case at my t14 (and know it’s not true in the south and west)

Everybody who posts a sweeping statement is referring to M&A practice in NYC and/or their experience at either Harvard or Columbia. The rest of the world does not exist to them.

HYS has been replaced with HC

Because these are the most common kind. More like CCN has been replaced by HCN. with YS are in a different tier. Harvard is far closer to Columbia in every aspect than Yale Stanford or even Chicago.

Backed up by new US news rankings.

Well Harvard is still more selective than Chicago and Columbia (and in terms of medians still beats Stanford), but who knows how long that will last.

Harvard is still Harvard.

Btw, HBS also fell out of top 3 in the MBA rankings. Columbia surprisingly made it to top 3 in the undergrad rankings. Maybe there's something wrong with this year's US News rankings.

[Anonymous User]

Associate compensation increased in 2021, and the firm went to a standard pay scale across offices. That shift is something the firm has been thinking about for several years, but the decision to standardize the pay scale for associates is a reflection of the pandemic, he said.

“You find talent wherever it can be, and you want to be able to attract and retain that great talent,” he said.

The firm is waiting for the market to stabilize, he said, before announcing any associate salary scale moves this year, in the wake of Big Law increases.

Foley & Lardner's CEO commented on the firm's delay in increasing associate salaries. Wonder if there's any chance they'll match the full salary scale in all offices.

https://www.law.com/americanlawyer/2022 ... p-in-2021/

[Anonymous User]

Presumably you mean NYC, but you would need to clarify which region for this to be remotely helpful bc this is not the case at my t14 (and know it’s not true in the south and west)

Everybody who posts a sweeping statement is referring to M&A practice in NYC and/or their experience at either Harvard or Columbia. The rest of the world does not exist to them.

HYS has been replaced with HC

Because these are the most common kind. More like CCN has been replaced by HCN. with YS are in a different tier. Harvard is far closer to Columbia in every aspect than Yale Stanford or even Chicago.

Backed up by new US news rankings.

Well Harvard is still more selective than Chicago and Columbia (and in terms of medians still beats Stanford), but who knows how long that will last.

Harvard is still Harvard.

Btw, HBS also fell out of top 3 in the MBA rankings. Columbia surprisingly made it to top 3 in the undergrad rankings. Maybe there's something wrong with this year's US News rankings.

Harvard has never been Harvard in the law school world.

[Anonymous User]

Everybody who posts a sweeping statement is referring to M&A practice in NYC and/or their experience at either Harvard or Columbia. The rest of the world does not exist to them.

HYS has been replaced with HC

Because these are the most common kind. More like CCN has been replaced by HCN. with YS are in a different tier. Harvard is far closer to Columbia in every aspect than Yale Stanford or even Chicago.

Backed up by new US news rankings.

Well Harvard is still more selective than Chicago and Columbia (and in terms of medians still beats Stanford), but who knows how long that will last.

Harvard is still Harvard.

Btw, HBS also fell out of top 3 in the MBA rankings. Columbia surprisingly made it to top 3 in the undergrad rankings. Maybe there's something wrong with this year's US News rankings.

Harvard has never been Harvard in the law school world.

[Anonymous User]

Everybody who posts a sweeping statement is referring to M&A practice in NYC and/or their experience at either Harvard or Columbia. The rest of the world does not exist to them.

HYS has been replaced with HC

Because these are the most common kind. More like CCN has been replaced by HCN. with YS are in a different tier. Harvard is far closer to Columbia in every aspect than Yale Stanford or even Chicago.

Backed up by new US news rankings.

Well Harvard is still more selective than Chicago and Columbia (and in terms of medians still beats Stanford), but who knows how long that will last.

Harvard is still Harvard.

Btw, HBS also fell out of top 3 in the MBA rankings. Columbia surprisingly made it to top 3 in the undergrad rankings. Maybe there's something wrong with this year's US News rankings.

Harvard has never been Harvard in the law school world.

The rankings are tinkered with each year to approximate a general perception of prestige. The rankings don't mean anything else beyond that.

[Anonymous User]

Jones Day to 225???

That's flame, they are still below market. With the annual bonus, first years should get $235k all in comp.

Fair, but have they traditionally paid above market to compensate or do they usually just say "sorry boutchya"?

[Anonymous User]

Everybody who posts a sweeping statement is referring to M&A practice in NYC and/or their experience at either Harvard or Columbia. The rest of the world does not exist to them.

HYS has been replaced with HC

Because these are the most common kind. More like CCN has been replaced by HCN. with YS are in a different tier. Harvard is far closer to Columbia in every aspect than Yale Stanford or even Chicago.

Backed up by new US news rankings.

Well Harvard is still more selective than Chicago and Columbia (and in terms of medians still beats Stanford), but who knows how long that will last.

Harvard is still Harvard.

Btw, HBS also fell out of top 3 in the MBA rankings. Columbia surprisingly made it to top 3 in the undergrad rankings. Maybe there's something wrong with this year's US News rankings.

Harvard has never been Harvard in the law school world.

Hope your day's going alrite....

[Anonymous User]

Jones Day to 225???

That's flame, they are still below market. With the annual bonus, first years should get $235k all in comp.

Fair, but have they traditionally paid above market to compensate or do they usually just say "sorry boutchya"?

They were at 210 (no bonuses) when everyone else was at 205. Not sure prior.

[Anonymous User]

Everybody who posts a sweeping statement is referring to M&A practice in NYC and/or their experience at either Harvard or Columbia. The rest of the world does not exist to them.

HYS has been replaced with HC

Because these are the most common kind. More like CCN has been replaced by HCN. with YS are in a different tier. Harvard is far closer to Columbia in every aspect than Yale Stanford or even Chicago.

Backed up by new US news rankings.

Well Harvard is still more selective than Chicago and Columbia (and in terms of medians still beats Stanford), but who knows how long that will last.

Harvard is still Harvard.

Btw, HBS also fell out of top 3 in the MBA rankings. Columbia surprisingly made it to top 3 in the undergrad rankings. Maybe there's something wrong with this year's US News rankings.

Harvard has never been Harvard in the law school world.

I don't even know what you are trying to say. US News has not been ranking Harvard 1 in many other fields (e.g. MBA, undergrad) either

[Anonymous User]

HYS has been replaced with HC

Because these are the most common kind. More like CCN has been replaced by HCN. with YS are in a different tier. Harvard is far closer to Columbia in every aspect than Yale Stanford or even Chicago.

Backed up by new US news rankings.

Well Harvard is still more selective than Chicago and Columbia (and in terms of medians still beats Stanford), but who knows how long that will last.

Harvard is still Harvard.

Btw, HBS also fell out of top 3 in the MBA rankings. Columbia surprisingly made it to top 3 in the undergrad rankings. Maybe there's something wrong with this year's US News rankings.

Harvard has never been Harvard in the law school world.

I don't even know what you are trying to say. US News has not been ranking Harvard 1 in many other fields (e.g. MBA, undergrad) either

And Stanford is #6 in the college rankings. USNWR is not god.

Also why so much Harvard hate on here? Alright, it's clearly not Yale. But it's still has a 7% acceptance rate, great job outcomes, and unparalleled name recognition.

[Anonymous User]

Kind of silly to say that Skadden pioneered the KE/Latham model when it only has equity partners that are promoted after 8-12 years and they have a very securities/pubco oriented practice. Skadden is much closer to the white shoe firms than it is to Latham/KE, imo.

Yea, Skadden's def considered more in line with the typical white shoe firms than KE/Latham are. All great firms to be sure, but just saying. They're also a lot more grade/fit selective at my T-14 than KE/Latham

lol at the idea of Skadden being selective.

Presumably you mean NYC, but you would need to clarify which region for this to be remotely helpful bc this is not the case at my t14 (and know it’s not true in the south and west)

Everybody who posts a sweeping statement is referring to M&A practice in NYC and/or their experience at either Harvard or Columbia. The rest of the world does not exist to them.

HYS has been replaced with HC

Because these are the most common kind. More like CCN has been replaced by HCN. with YS are in a different tier. Harvard is far closer to Columbia in every aspect than Yale Stanford or even Chicago.

This is true, but doesn’t mean anything about prestige or w/e—HLS is very large and doesn’t have a particularly notable focus on academia or clerkship rate, unlike YSC but like CN.

[Anonymous User]

Are lit boutiques really more profitable than corporate practices? Seems doubtful, considering that lit is the weakest practice in biglaw, and biglaw litigators are no slouches. Or are above market boutiques just more comfortable with sharing the wealth with associates in the name of prestige?

One factor may also be that lit boutiques tend to have a lower ratio of associates to partners, so it doesn’t cost the partners as much (relatively speaking) to pay the associates more. (Then again, they also aren’t bringing in as much revenue for the same reason.)

But this goes to the same point; the lower ratio is because more people make partner, because that's the business model. You bring prestigious resume, you get above market pay and higher chances of partnership. And yet, it's not supported by the profitability.

Litigators know lit partnership prospects are really bad in biglaw, and unlike in corp, litigators often want to do private-practice litigation forever. Also they often care about working with only people who are at least as smart as they are, and view their work (rightly or wrongly) as intellectual. Hence they go to boutiques.

I don’t feel like you see many boutique partners poached by biglaw, probably because relatively few have huge portable books, but boutique partners still make way more money than they’d get as AUSAs, so it’s a good deal for them. Their realistic alternative is government, not equity at a huge-PPP firm that makes hardly any lit partners.

[Anonymous User]

Yea, Skadden's def considered more in line with the typical white shoe firms than KE/Latham are. All great firms to be sure, but just saying. They're also a lot more grade/fit selective at my T-14 than KE/Latham

lol at the idea of Skadden being selective.

Presumably you mean NYC, but you would need to clarify which region for this to be remotely helpful bc this is not the case at my t14 (and know it’s not true in the south and west)

Everybody who posts a sweeping statement is referring to M&A practice in NYC and/or their experience at either Harvard or Columbia. The rest of the world does not exist to them.

HYS has been replaced with HC

Because these are the most common kind. More like CCN has been replaced by HCN. with YS are in a different tier. Harvard is far closer to Columbia in every aspect than Yale Stanford or even Chicago.

This is true, but doesn’t mean anything about prestige or w/e—HLS is very large and doesn’t have a particularly notable focus on academia or clerkship rate, unlike YSC but like CN.

It's silly to criticize a school because it has the most AmLaw 100 partners, the most students fed into tenured prof positions, the most politicians, the most Federal Judges, the most students doing interesting things outside of traditional law jobs, the second-highest amount of SCOTUS clerks, AND four Justices, as opposed to being a school that has a "notable focus" on two of the categories.

Harvard has more of everything. If you combined Yale and Columbia you'd have Harvard. Harvard has more prestige than USNWR will ever have. Ranking methodologies and publications come and go. When Harvard's ranking drops the only reputation at risk is the reputation of USNWR.

[Anonymous User]

lol at the idea of Skadden being selective.

Presumably you mean NYC, but you would need to clarify which region for this to be remotely helpful bc this is not the case at my t14 (and know it’s not true in the south and west)

Everybody who posts a sweeping statement is referring to M&A practice in NYC and/or their experience at either Harvard or Columbia. The rest of the world does not exist to them.

HYS has been replaced with HC

Because these are the most common kind. More like CCN has been replaced by HCN. with YS are in a different tier. Harvard is far closer to Columbia in every aspect than Yale Stanford or even Chicago.

This is true, but doesn’t mean anything about prestige or w/e—HLS is very large and doesn’t have a particularly notable focus on academia or clerkship rate, unlike YSC but like CN.

It's silly to criticize a school because it has the most AmLaw 100 partners, the most students fed into tenured prof positions, the most politicians, the most Federal Judges, the most students doing interesting things outside of traditional law jobs, the second-highest amount of SCOTUS clerks, AND four Justices, as opposed to being a school that has a "notable focus" on two of the categories.

Harvard has more of everything. If you combined Yale and Columbia you'd have Harvard. Harvard has more prestige than USNWR will ever have. Ranking methodologies and publications come and go. When Harvard's ranking drops the only reputation at risk is the reputation of USNWR.

lol harvard grad mad

[Anonymous User]

lol at the idea of Skadden being selective.

Presumably you mean NYC, but you would need to clarify which region for this to be remotely helpful bc this is not the case at my t14 (and know it’s not true in the south and west)

Everybody who posts a sweeping statement is referring to M&A practice in NYC and/or their experience at either Harvard or Columbia. The rest of the world does not exist to them.

HYS has been replaced with HC

Because these are the most common kind. More like CCN has been replaced by HCN. with YS are in a different tier. Harvard is far closer to Columbia in every aspect than Yale Stanford or even Chicago.

This is true, but doesn’t mean anything about prestige or w/e—HLS is very large and doesn’t have a particularly notable focus on academia or clerkship rate, unlike YSC but like CN.

It's silly to criticize a school because it has the most AmLaw 100 partners, the most students fed into tenured prof positions, the most politicians, the most Federal Judges, the most students doing interesting things outside of traditional law jobs, the second-highest amount of SCOTUS clerks, AND four Justices, as opposed to being a school that has a "notable focus" on two of the categories.

Harvard has more of everything. If you combined Yale and Columbia you'd have Harvard. Harvard has more prestige than USNWR will ever have. Ranking methodologies and publications come and go. When Harvard's ranking drops the only reputation at risk is the reputation of USNWR.

Lol at this screed to a post that explicitly wasn’t about prestige—protesting a bit too much. And yes, HLS is three times bigger than YSC, that’s the point.

[Anonymous User]

Are lit boutiques really more profitable than corporate practices? Seems doubtful, considering that lit is the weakest practice in biglaw, and biglaw litigators are no slouches. Or are above market boutiques just more comfortable with sharing the wealth with associates in the name of prestige?

One factor may also be that lit boutiques tend to have a lower ratio of associates to partners, so it doesn’t cost the partners as much (relatively speaking) to pay the associates more. (Then again, they also aren’t bringing in as much revenue for the same reason.)

But this goes to the same point; the lower ratio is because more people make partner, because that's the business model. You bring prestigious resume, you get above market pay and higher chances of partnership. And yet, it's not supported by the profitability.

Litigators know lit partnership prospects are really bad in biglaw, and unlike in corp, litigators often want to do private-practice litigation forever. Also they often care about working with only people who are at least as smart as they are, and view their work (rightly or wrongly) as intellectual. Hence they go to boutiques.

I don’t feel like you see many boutique partners poached by biglaw, probably because relatively few have huge portable books, but boutique partners still make way more money than they’d get as AUSAs, so it’s a good deal for them. Their realistic alternative is government, not equity at a huge-PPP firm that makes hardly any lit partners.

Yes. Non-elite boutique is the lit equivalent of in-house for corp people.

That's not relevant for the question about above-market boutiques (which are elite and do not come with the same lifestyle benefits compared to biglaw as the non-elite boutiques that end up as career landing spots for many lit ex-biglawyers). But I think corp people don't always understand this.

[Anonymous User]

Presumably you mean NYC, but you would need to clarify which region for this to be remotely helpful bc this is not the case at my t14 (and know it’s not true in the south and west)

Everybody who posts a sweeping statement is referring to M&A practice in NYC and/or their experience at either Harvard or Columbia. The rest of the world does not exist to them.

HYS has been replaced with HC

Because these are the most common kind. More like CCN has been replaced by HCN. with YS are in a different tier. Harvard is far closer to Columbia in every aspect than Yale Stanford or even Chicago.

This is true, but doesn’t mean anything about prestige or w/e—HLS is very large and doesn’t have a particularly notable focus on academia or clerkship rate, unlike YSC but like CN.

It's silly to criticize a school because it has the most AmLaw 100 partners, the most students fed into tenured prof positions, the most politicians, the most Federal Judges, the most students doing interesting things outside of traditional law jobs, the second-highest amount of SCOTUS clerks, AND four Justices, as opposed to being a school that has a "notable focus" on two of the categories.

Harvard has more of everything. If you combined Yale and Columbia you'd have Harvard. Harvard has more prestige than USNWR will ever have. Ranking methodologies and publications come and go. When Harvard's ranking drops the only reputation at risk is the reputation of USNWR.

Lol at this screed to a post that explicitly wasn’t about prestige—protesting a bit too much. And yes, HLS is three times bigger than YSC, that’s the point.

Why Harvard gets so much hate in this forum? My perspective from an HLS grad senior associate. These two seem to be the main reasons.
1. It's a big, but selective school. If you don't have the right grades and scores, you simply don't have a shot. These days, even the ones with the right scores don't get in. Obviously the ones that didn't have a shot or got rejected don't like the school, especially more so because they assumed, given the larger size, there may be spots for them. Also, people just hate how much weight is given to hard factors (test scores and GPAs) in the admissions process because they can't change those things.
2. Due to the larger size, we do have our proportionately larger share of assholes. Looking at it this way, it's similar to the hate K&E often gets in this forum.

[Anonymous User]

Presumably you mean NYC, but you would need to clarify which region for this to be remotely helpful bc this is not the case at my t14 (and know it’s not true in the south and west)

Everybody who posts a sweeping statement is referring to M&A practice in NYC and/or their experience at either Harvard or Columbia. The rest of the world does not exist to them.

HYS has been replaced with HC

Because these are the most common kind. More like CCN has been replaced by HCN. with YS are in a different tier. Harvard is far closer to Columbia in every aspect than Yale Stanford or even Chicago.

This is true, but doesn’t mean anything about prestige or w/e—HLS is very large and doesn’t have a particularly notable focus on academia or clerkship rate, unlike YSC but like CN.

It's silly to criticize a school because it has the most AmLaw 100 partners, the most students fed into tenured prof positions, the most politicians, the most Federal Judges, the most students doing interesting things outside of traditional law jobs, the second-highest amount of SCOTUS clerks, AND four Justices, as opposed to being a school that has a "notable focus" on two of the categories.

Harvard has more of everything. If you combined Yale and Columbia you'd have Harvard. Harvard has more prestige than USNWR will ever have. Ranking methodologies and publications come and go. When Harvard's ranking drops the only reputation at risk is the reputation of USNWR.

Lol at this screed to a post that explicitly wasn’t about prestige—protesting a bit too much. And yes, HLS is three times bigger than YSC, that’s the point.

Why Harvard gets so much hate in this forum? My perspective as an HLS grad senior associate. These two seem to be the main reasons.
1. It's a big, but selective school. If you don't have the right grades and scores, you simply don't have a shot. These days, even the ones with the right scores don't get in. Obviously the ones that didn't have a shot or got rejected don't like the school, especially more so because they assumed, given the larger size, there may be spots for them. Also, people just hate how much weight is given to hard factors (test scores and GPAs) in the admissions process because they can't change those things.
2. Due to the larger size, we do have our proportionately larger share of assholes. Looking at it this way, it's similar to the hate K&E often gets in this forum.

[Anonymous User]

Why Harvard gets so much hate in this forum? My perspective from an HLS grad senior associate. These two seem to be the main reasons.

1. It's a big, but selective school. If you don't have the right grades and scores, you simply don't have a shot. These days, even the ones with the right scores don't get in. Obviously the ones that didn't have a shot or got rejected don't like the school, especially more so because they assumed, given the larger size, there may be spots for them. Also, people just hate how much weight is given to hard factors (test scores and GPAs) in the admissions process because they can't change those things.

Yes, this is true (from a fellow HLS grad senior associate). People tend to take their HLS rejection a lot harder than say Y or S. People don't get mad at a Yale rejection or even a Stanford rejection because they figure the classes are small and admission is dependent on factors beyond pure numbers. People with the requisite numbers tend to feel entitled to a Harvard acceptance. This might also explain why the loudest hate tend to come from Columbia and Chicago grads. I've also presumed it's because a lot of people who end up at Columbia/Chicago think they were robbed of a spot at HLS.

[Anonymous User]

Why Harvard gets so much hate in this forum? My perspective from an HLS grad senior associate. These two seem to be the main reasons.

1. It's a big, but selective school. If you don't have the right grades and scores, you simply don't have a shot. These days, even the ones with the right scores don't get in. Obviously the ones that didn't have a shot or got rejected don't like the school, especially more so because they assumed, given the larger size, there may be spots for them. Also, people just hate how much weight is given to hard factors (test scores and GPAs) in the admissions process because they can't change those things.

Yes, this is true (from a fellow HLS grad senior associate). People tend to take their HLS rejection a lot harder than say Y or S. People don't get mad at a Yale rejection or even a Stanford rejection because they figure the classes are small and admission is dependent on factors beyond pure numbers. People with the requisite numbers tend to feel entitled to a Harvard acceptance. This might also explain why the loudest hate tend to come from Columbia and Chicago grads. I've also presumed it's because a lot of people who end up at Columbia/Chicago think they were robbed of a spot at HLS.

As someone who was rejected by Harvard, this is somewhat true for me. My hard scores were all above median, minority background, first generation, etc. Felt like I was the ideal candidate. Rejection. I was somewhat floored as I thought I'd at least get a WL. It all worked out as I went to a different T14 with a massive scholarship (one that probably offset any extra Harvard prestige). However, I didn't take it personally, I've seen schools take boneheaded moves constantly and with at least 30% of my class I was left wondering "how did you ever get accepted?"

I will say this, though, that all the HLS associates at my group at the firm absolutely suck. I think this doesn't have to do with the school, but more that they think they're the best based on their school and so don't have to put in any work. It's just a nasty side effect with going to any HYS school.

[Anonymous User]

Why Harvard gets so much hate in this forum? My perspective from an HLS grad senior associate. These two seem to be the main reasons.

1. It's a big, but selective school. If you don't have the right grades and scores, you simply don't have a shot. These days, even the ones with the right scores don't get in. Obviously the ones that didn't have a shot or got rejected don't like the school, especially more so because they assumed, given the larger size, there may be spots for them. Also, people just hate how much weight is given to hard factors (test scores and GPAs) in the admissions process because they can't change those things.

Yes, this is true (from a fellow HLS grad senior associate). People tend to take their HLS rejection a lot harder than say Y or S. People don't get mad at a Yale rejection or even a Stanford rejection because they figure the classes are small and admission is dependent on factors beyond pure numbers. People with the requisite numbers tend to feel entitled to a Harvard acceptance. This might also explain why the loudest hate tend to come from Columbia and Chicago grads. I've also presumed it's because a lot of people who end up at Columbia/Chicago think they were robbed of a spot at HLS.

As someone who was rejected by Harvard, this is somewhat true for me. My hard scores were all above median, minority background, first generation, etc. Felt like I was the ideal candidate. Rejection. I was somewhat floored as I thought I'd at least get a WL. It all worked out as I went to a different T14 with a massive scholarship (one that probably offset any extra Harvard prestige). However, I didn't take it personally, I've seen schools take boneheaded moves constantly and with at least 30% of my class I was left wondering "how did you ever get accepted?"

I will say this, though, that all the HLS associates at my group at the firm absolutely suck. I think this doesn't have to do with the school, but more that they think they're the best based on their school and so don't have to put in any work. It's just a nasty side effect with going to any HYS school.

Sorry to hear that, but it looks like you just happen to be working with some bad apples from HLS. None of those people are representative of the school.

[Anonymous User]

I mean preftige aside, it’s still true that Stanford and Yale have more in common with Chicago than Harvard, which was the point? I think the older HLS grads may not realize this because Chicago turning into a clerkship powerhouse is a pretty recent phenomenon—its first year as #1 for clerkships (and also beating HLS at SCOTUS despite its size) was just last year. It also comfortably beats HLS, as does YLS, in per-capita academia. While most students at HLS may not care about such things, that again shows a cultural difference that puts it closer to CLS.

[Anonymous User]

Harvard's class size makes it appear to have a lot in common with Georgetown than the other T14 schools: both are at the bottom of the cutoff, the former HYS and the latter T14. H will get its rank back in the top 3 soon enough.

[Anonymous User]

Why TF are we debating the USNWR rankings on a thread about salaries? Even worse than the K&E bro hijacks.