The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls) Forum

[Gorki]

In re: writing samples. Make sure that if you stick to 5-6 pages or w/e you do not just snip out 5-6 from discussion of an otherwise complex legal issue/discussion that goes on for 10-15 pages... you prob know this, but its good to remember that the reader will not in fact have any clue about your paper unless you provide the context. best of luck!

[kalvano]

I use one that's 6.5 pages and succinctly sums up the way a various motion is handled in federal cases. It's a weird point of law that not many people know about, so it works well because I think I did a pretty good job of explaining what the law is and how it's applied. It's basically a how-to memo if you've no idea how to proceed. I've gotten very good feedback on it, and specifically been told that it was good because it was succinct.

[BarbellDreams]

I like using my 10 page Criminal Defense Practicum final appellate brief cause I got an award for it, but I hesitate to use it for anyone that doesn't practice criminal law and usually sub in a 2 page litigation memo I wrote for a firm. Idk if this is smart or not, but I've been doing it for whatever reason.

[NYstate]

To the Anon who was thinking of suicide if they didn't get a job in August. Just wanted to know how you are, if you feel like posting. I've been thinking about you the past few days and was wondering what's up.

If you don't feel like posting, that's ok too. I just wanted to remind you that people are here for you.

[20160810]

Cougar:

Small law and mid law are NOT, in most cases, any different with respect to billable hours than big law. Attorneys work long hours because they have to get the work done. It is easier to bill more hours as a litigator than a transaction attorney. One can bill 1.0 for a complaint that
may take you 15 minutes to complete because it was a form used in a similiar case. You can bill 1.0 for a set of standard interrogatories that you had your secretary prepare. My spouse's firm of 20 lawyers expects associates to bill, at a minimum, 160 hours per month.

At my litigation firm I'd probably get a serious reprimand by billing like that

That would be a .25 and then maybe a .1 to pull up the form

Yeah this is basically stealing from your clients.

[Anonymous User]

PAYE + PSLF is the route I'm shooting for!

P.S. I just looked and I believe you can change your repayment plan at any time during the life of the loan, so you are not actually locked out of IBR/PAYE if you don't immediately elect them.

Why do you need PAYE + PSLF? It seems like PSLF by itself would be good enough because PSLF is loan forgiveness in 10 years. Isn't PAYE basically the same as PSLF but it's loan forgiveness in 20 years?

I think a good combination would be IBR/PSLF and LRAP if your school has it. Anyone have experience with this? I haven't started actual repayments yet.

[A. Nony Mouse]

PAYE is what caps your loan payments according to your income. PSLF doesn't do that, so if you're making the typical lower salary in PI, you need to sign up for either IBR or PAYE to keep the amount down. PSLF just says if you make 120 monthly payments while working in public service, the rest of your loans are forgiven, not how much the payments should be. You have to choose a payment plan (IBR, PAYE, regular) regardless.

[rad lulz]

.

[mr. wednesday]

It seems like there is so much confusion over PAYE/IBR/PSLF, especially from people who were no offered/thought they would just do biglaw and pay off their loans that way.

PAYE/IBR: These are the same program with slightly different formulas. They are an income-based repayment plan that calculates how much you pay each month based on your family size and income. If you had no loans before Oct. 2007 and took out at least one since 2011, your payments will be calculated under the PAYE formula. Otherwise, the old IBR formula. Again, basically the exact same program, but the way payments and forgiveness is calculated is slightly better under PAYE. You can pay as much as you want under PAYE/IBR, but your minimum payment will be calculated under an income-based formula.

Loan forgiveness: If you are working a non-public interest job, your loans will still be forgiven after either 20 or 25 years of repayment under PAYE/IBR. This forgiveness IS taxed. Not a great idea to strive for but a good failsafe to prevent you from being 65 and still making student loan payments.

PSLF: If you are working a public interest job, your loans will be forgiven after 120 payments under any plan that is at least equal to what you would owe under IBR. So your best bet is to just sign up for PAYE/IBR (whichever formula you qualify for) and make 120 payments. This forgiveness is NOT taxed.

[NYstate]

Cougar:

Small law and mid law are NOT, in most cases, any different with respect to billable hours than big law. Attorneys work long hours because they have to get the work done. It is easier to bill more hours as a litigator than a transaction attorney. One can bill 1.0 for a complaint that
may take you 15 minutes to complete because it was a form used in a similiar case. You can bill 1.0 for a set of standard interrogatories that you had your secretary prepare. My spouse's firm of 20 lawyers expects associates to bill, at a minimum, 160 hours per month.

At my litigation firm I'd probably get a serious reprimand by billing like that

That would be a .25 and then maybe a .1 to pull up the form

Yeah this is basically stealing from your clients.

My opinion is billing for pees is kosher, but not poops

My experience is that in biglaw transactional work it is possible to bill almost all your time. On a large deal, you are spending all your time on that matter.
I have never billed someone for an hour for something that only took 15 minutes.

[rad lulz]

My experience is that in biglaw transactional work it is possible to bill almost all your time. On a large deal, you are spending all your time on that matter.
I have never billed someone for an hour for something that only took 15 minutes.

No one at any lit firm I have ever worked at has ever said anything different

That one firm Familylawesq describes sounds shady

[gwuorbust]

It seems like there is so much confusion over PAYE/IBR/PSLF, especially from people who were no offered/thought they would just do biglaw and pay off their loans that way.

PAYE/IBR: These are the same program with slightly different formulas. They are an income-based repayment plan that calculates how much you pay each month based on your family size and income. If you had no loans before Oct. 2007 and took out at least one since 2011, your payments will be calculated under the PAYE formula. Otherwise, the old IBR formula. Again, basically the exact same program, but the way payments and forgiveness is calculated is slightly better under PAYE. You can pay as much as you want under PAYE/IBR, but your minimum payment will be calculated under an income-based formula.

Loan forgiveness: If you are working a non-public interest job, your loans will still be forgiven after either 20 or 25 years of repayment under PAYE/IBR. This forgiveness IS taxed. Not a great idea to strive for but a good failsafe to prevent you from being 65 and still making student loan payments.

PSLF: If you are working a public interest job, your loans will be forgiven after 120 payments under any plan that is at least equal to what you would owe under IBR. So your best bet is to just sign up for PAYE/IBR (whichever formula you qualify for) and make 120 payments. This forgiveness is NOT taxed.

Also, under PAYE interest capitalization is limited to 10% of the original principle, based on when the borrower entered PAYE. The benefit is that your loan balance will max out and not keep growing into infinity if you are unable pay all of the interest each year.

[mr. wednesday]

Also, under PAYE interest capitalization is limited to 10% of the original principle, based on when the borrower entered PAYE. The benefit is that your loan balance will max out and not keep growing into infinity if you are unable pay all of the interest each year.

AND under PAYE/IBR, if your payment doesn't cover interest on your loans, the gov't pays for the interest on subsidized loans for the first three years. There are some other various benefits too.

If you qualify for it, there really isn't a downside to being on PAYE/IBR. You can always pay more if you want.

[20160810]

My experience is that in biglaw transactional work it is possible to bill almost all your time. On a large deal, you are spending all your time on that matter.
I have never billed someone for an hour for something that only took 15 minutes.

No one at any lit firm I have ever worked at has ever said anything different

That one firm Familylawesq describes sounds shady

Agreed. Billing for poops is ok if you take a west law printout with you tho.

[Anonymous User]

So, let me make sure I understand this right.

Wouldn't it be best for me to elect to do IBR then if I plan to do IBR + PSLF. IBR is spread out over 30 years, which is longer than PAYE, which is spread out over 20 years.

I make 120 IBR payments for 10 years of PSLF and get my whole loan forgiven anyway, right? I mean, I'm really just trying to give up as little money as possible over those 10 PSLF years till my loan is forgiven. (I believe in paying my debts, but when there are legal and financially rational options to choose, I think most people would take them).

[A. Nony Mouse]

The amount of time you can be on one or the other plan (and IBR is 25 years, not 30) has nothing to do with the amount you pay. It's not like they take the total amount you owe and divide it by 25 years or 30 years and that's your payment so you want to spread it over a longer period - the amount you pay is capped based on your income. PAYE is better for what you want because it has a lower cap on payments than IBR does, so you pay less than you do on IBR (regardless of how much you owe or how long the plan is for). When the time is up, your debt is forgiven, so PAYE is also better in this respect because your debt is forgiven sooner than it is under IBR, so you make fewer payments.

The only reason to be on IBR is if, like me, you don't qualify for PAYE (which requires you to be a new borrower on or after Oct. 1, 2007, and to have received a disbursement of a Direct Loan on or after Oct. 1, 2011 - I graduated in 2011, so I didn't get any disbursements after Oct 1, so I don't qualify). There's also a requirement that has to do with whether you had a loan before a certain date, and had/hadn't paid it off? (I never understood that part but since I don't qualify I never checked it out.) If you qualify for PAYE, it's a better deal.

(And yes, in one sense it doesn't matter if you're doing PSLF because your debt goes away after 10 years anyway. But PAYE still gives you lower payments for those 10 years.)

[Anonymous User]

The amount of time you can be on one or the other plan (and IBR is 25 years, not 30) has nothing to do with the amount you pay. It's not like they take the total amount you owe and divide it by 25 years or 30 years and that's your payment so you want to spread it over a longer period - the amount you pay is capped based on your income. PAYE is better for what you want because it has a lower cap on payments than IBR does, so you pay less than you do on IBR (regardless of how much you owe or how long the plan is for). When the time is up, your debt is forgiven, so PAYE is also better in this respect because your debt is forgiven sooner than it is under IBR, so you make fewer payments.

The only reason to be on IBR is if, like me, you don't qualify for PAYE (which requires you to be a new borrower on or after Oct. 1, 2007, and to have received a disbursement of a Direct Loan on or after Oct. 1, 2011 - I graduated in 2011, so I didn't get any disbursements after Oct 1, so I don't qualify). There's also a requirement that has to do with whether you had a loan before a certain date, and had/hadn't paid it off? (I never understood that part but since I don't qualify I never checked it out.) If you qualify for PAYE, it's a better deal.

(And yes, in one sense it doesn't matter if you're doing PSLF because your debt goes away after 10 years anyway. But PAYE still gives you lower payments for those 10 years.)

Enlightening, thanks.

[J. D.]

Total debt is $160K. Base income is $150K. I calculated a monthly payment of $1,900 for ten years. Is this the best payment plan or is there a better way?

user outed for anon abuse

[Void]

Total debt is $160K. Base income is $150K. I calculated a monthly payment of $1,900 for ten years. Is this the best payment plan or is there a better way?

Maybe you should ask this in another thread, because people here have worse problems than not knowing how to spend $150k.

[Gorki]

Total debt is $160K. Base income is $150K. I calculated a monthly payment of $1,900 for ten years. Is this the best payment plan or is there a better way?

Maybe you should ask this in another thread, because people here have worse problems than not knowing how to spend $150k.

Yep that user is either some shitty alt or just arrogance embodied. Your bigger Q J.D. is how you will make those payments when you blow 150k for 3 years, wash out of biglaw, and have no practical exp. fuck.

[Ludo!]

Total debt is $160K. Base income is $150K. I calculated a monthly payment of $1,900 for ten years. Is this the best payment plan or is there a better way?

user outed for anon abuse

Haha this was unsurprising. This user has been a piece of shit from day one

[LSATmakesMeNeurotic]

Saw this job posting today:

Prepares and reviews correspondence, routine notices, memoranda and reports at the direction of the General Counsel and other attorneys in Legal Department. Assist in answering questions and responding to requests directed to the General Counsel.

J.D. Preferred

I give up.

[chrisbru]

My experience is that in biglaw transactional work it is possible to bill almost all your time. On a large deal, you are spending all your time on that matter.
I have never billed someone for an hour for something that only took 15 minutes.

No one at any lit firm I have ever worked at has ever said anything different

That one firm Familylawesq describes sounds shady

Agreed. Billing for poops is ok if you take a west law printout with you tho.

Does that mean I can bill for my walk to and from Brugger's to get my breakfast if I'm reading a case on my phone?

[Void]

My experience is that in biglaw transactional work it is possible to bill almost all your time. On a large deal, you are spending all your time on that matter.
I have never billed someone for an hour for something that only took 15 minutes.

No one at any lit firm I have ever worked at has ever said anything different

That one firm Familylawesq describes sounds shady

Agreed. Billing for poops is ok if you take a west law printout with you tho.

Does that mean I can bill for my walk to and from Brugger's to get my breakfast if I'm reading a case on my phone?

No, but only because Bruegers is fucking disgusting.

[Void]

Saw this job posting today:

Prepares and reviews correspondence, routine notices, memoranda and reports at the direction of the General Counsel and other attorneys in Legal Department. Assist in answering questions and responding to requests directed to the General Counsel.

J.D. Preferred

I give up.

Why? Sounds like a decent job.