NY GOES TO 180k! IT HAPPENED!!!! (CovingTTTon does a 180! Holder wept.) Forum

[Anonymous User]

I worked on chapter 11s and prepared our fee apps and all non NY offices billed less than the NY offices.

counterpoint: my firm's associate rates are the same across the board. we have offices in nyc, california, texas, and DC.

my firm's are substantially higher for NY than DC. a third year NY associate bills out higher than a fifth year in DC.

[Desert Fox]

Unless the firm doesn't care which office you work, they absolutely should cover the COL difference.

But that means NYC should get more than 180k, not everyone else less.

But living in Manhattan is a priceless life experience. If anything, that should be factored into the compensation and NYC associates should be getting paid less than associates forced to work in non-NYC offices.

I wouldn't base the COL off MfuckingH. I'd base it off Brooklyn maybe, but probably Jersey.

[soj]

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[Anonymous User]

I worked on chapter 11s and prepared our fee apps and all non NY offices billed less than the NY offices.

counterpoint: my firm's associate rates are the same across the board. we have offices in nyc, california, texas, and DC.

Same. Offices in NY, CA, TX, Philly, Chicago, Charlotte, Boston, etc. All of us billing at the same rate if we're at the same level and in the same practice group.

[Br3v]

I don't get why a firm would bill higher in NY? This is 2016, we have the internet. There is nothing physically in NY that would require lawyers to be there.

[Anonymous User]

the legal market is competitive and there's a ton of downward pressure on fees from clients and local competitors. in most industries and on most types of matters, i can't imagine clients would tolerate being billed at a uniform national rate.

It depends on the firm.

[soj]

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[TLSModBot]

Unless the firm doesn't care which office you work, they absolutely should cover the COL difference.

But that means NYC should get more than 180k, not everyone else less.

But living in Manhattan is a priceless life experience. If anything, that should be factored into the compensation and NYC associates should be getting paid less than associates forced to work in non-NYC offices.

I wouldn't base the COL off MfuckingH. I'd base it off Brooklyn maybe, but probably Jersey.

Idk do you base DC COL off DC proper or Silver Spring/Alexandria/Rockville?

[MKC]

I don't get why a firm would bill higher in NY? This is 2016, we have the internet. There is nothing physically in NY that would require lawyers to be there.

I don't understand this either. Given that the law is an entirely information-driven profession, paying the highest rental rates in the United States seems like a bad business decision. Then again, lawyers and people who hire lawyers are obsessed with prestige, so maybe this is just more of that prestige obsession feeding on itself.

[androstan]

LOT of DC associates with top grades from top schools watching closely.

On the one hand, DC-centric biglaw and its associates practice areas are generally not as heavily leveraged as their NYC counterparts. On the other hand, these DC firms don't have such a wide profit margin to absorb a sudden rise in expense.

Even if Covington/A&P/WH/etc. match quickly in their DC offices (which they will be heavily pressured to do by firms like Sidley etc.), many DC biglaw (defined as $160k starting salary as of this post) may not, at least at first. The elite DC firms don't compete for the same pool of associates as the Crowells/AF/etc, so the latter may prefer to ride this out at least one oci cycle while they figure out how to adapt to this change. The DC elites are generally competing for associates from the top schools nationwide whereas the rest of DC biglaw tends to hire more regionally.

I think Wiley Rein is probably the best test case. If Wiley goes to 180, that will put a lot of pressure on DC biglaw.

For patent associates out there, it will be very interesting to see how long it takes Fish/Finnegan to match.

[First Offense]

LOT of DC associates with top grades from top schools watching closely.

On the one hand, DC-centric biglaw and its associates practice areas are generally not as heavily leveraged as their NYC counterparts. On the other hand, these DC firms don't have such a wide profit margin to absorb a sudden rise in expense.

Even if Covington/A&P/WH/etc. match quickly in their DC offices which they will be heavily pressured to do by firms like Sidley etc.), many DC biglaw (defined as $160k starting salary as of this post) may not, at least at first. The elite DC firms don't compete for the same pool of associates as the Crowells/AF/etc, so the latter may prefer to ride this out at least one oci cycle while they figure out how to adapt to this change. The DC elites are generally competing for associates from the top schools nationwide whereas the rest of DC biglaw tends to hire more regionally.

I think Wiley Rein is probably the best test case. If Wiley goes to 180, that will put a lot of pressure on DC biglaw.

For patent associates out there, it will be very interesting to see how long it takes Fish/Finnegan to match.

I think it's telling that plenty of well regarded firms in DC still haven't gone up to 160. The Covington, A&P, Hogans of the city will match, but I don't see why firms like Venable or Steptoe would have to (or, as you said - Wiley).

[soj]

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[MKC]

it's also a client service and business support industry so no, setting up shop in wyoming isn't some great arbitrage opportunity that only you have just discovered.

It might make sense from that perspective to keep partners, and maybe even senior associates in NY, but what's the point of having junior associates there? They don't interact with clients anyway.

[dixiecupdrinking]

it's also a client service and business support industry so no, setting up shop in wyoming isn't some great arbitrage opportunity that only you have just discovered.

It might make sense from that perspective to keep partners, and maybe even senior associates in NY, but what's the point of having junior associates there? They don't interact with clients anyway.

People who think of themselves as professionals generally don't want to be outsourced to call centers, for one.

[El Pollito]

Unless the firm doesn't care which office you work, they absolutely should cover the COL difference.

But that means NYC should get more than 180k, not everyone else less.

I agree

[El Pollito]

it's also a client service and business support industry so no, setting up shop in wyoming isn't some great arbitrage opportunity that only you have just discovered.

It might make sense from that perspective to keep partners, and maybe even senior associates in NY, but what's the point of having junior associates there? They don't interact with clients anyway.

Also that's not really true. Only lit juniors don't interact with clients.

[smaug]

No lawyers work in Manhattan. Too many rich people there.

[Anonymous User]

For patent associates out there, it will be very interesting to see how long it takes Fish/Finnegan to match.

Is the implication here that Fish/Finnegan will take longer to match (if ever)?

[Br3v]

it's also a client service and business support industry so no, setting up shop in wyoming isn't some great arbitrage opportunity that only you have just discovered.

It might make sense from that perspective to keep partners, and maybe even senior associates in NY, but what's the point of having junior associates there? They don't interact with clients anyway.

People who think of themselves as professionals generally don't want to be outsourced to call centers, for one.

DC/Chi/Houston/LA/Etc are call centers?

[Tiago Splitter]

it's also a client service and business support industry so no, setting up shop in wyoming isn't some great arbitrage opportunity that only you have just discovered.

It might make sense from that perspective to keep partners, and maybe even senior associates in NY, but what's the point of having junior associates there? They don't interact with clients anyway.

Just wait until a partner asks you to swing by his office real quick...and then when you get there he says oops I forgot it was Saturday.

If it makes sense for partners to be there it makes sense for partners to have associates close by. Plus the marginal cost isn't that much higher once you already have some space.

[Anonymous User]

pw just matched

[JenDarby]

Just wait until a partner asks you to swing by his office real quick...and then when you get there he says oops I forgot it was Saturday.

[dixiecupdrinking]

it's also a client service and business support industry so no, setting up shop in wyoming isn't some great arbitrage opportunity that only you have just discovered.

It might make sense from that perspective to keep partners, and maybe even senior associates in NY, but what's the point of having junior associates there? They don't interact with clients anyway.

People who think of themselves as professionals generally don't want to be outsourced to call centers, for one.

DC/Chi/Houston/LA/Etc are call centers?

There's equally no reason to have lawyers in any of those cities. Why not put them in WV, if you're confident it doesn't matter where they're physically located.

[androstan]

For patent associates out there, it will be very interesting to see how long it takes Fish/Finnegan to match.

Is the implication here that Fish/Finnegan will take longer to match (if ever)?

I wasn't attempting to imply anything. But if I were to speculate, I think they would match in pretty short order, because they compete with many of the national biglaw firms for patent lit associates (including the aforementioned Sidley, Covington, etc.)

Further to the patent aspect of this topic, there are a number of well-regarded patent boutiques that did not quite pay market before, e.g. Knobbe, Sughrue, Oblon, etc. Given that a substantial portion of these practices consists of commodity prep and pros work that is subject to very sticky flat fees, it will be interesting to see how they adapt. On the other hand, some patent boutiques pay above market, e.g. Banner & Witcoff, so I wonder whether they will rise to 180, beat 180, or coast along as they are. On the other other hand, some patent boutiques are seriously struggling already , e.g. Kenyon and (to a lesser extent) Fitzpatrick.

All in all, it will be interesting to see if patent associate salaries experience further stratification since so much patent work has become fairly routine, while a fair chunk remains very high stakes and sophisticated.

[abitaman6363]

Looks like (according to the tally thread) other firms are falling in line. Kirkland. PW.