NYC to 200k Forum

[oblig.lawl.ref]

There's no way Cravath lets Milbank and Proskauer do this to them, right?

[Anonymous User]

Winston also matched!

Confirmed??

[Stillblade]

Meanwhile J. Prince is out there somewhere like "Cravath had firm-killing raises locked and ready but decided not to do it because it would end other firms"

[Anonymous User]

Incoming first year at a V5, NYC. Firms need to get that this is a business, and that the raise barely keeps up with inflation and cost of living more broadly (especially if it’s the last for a long time).

Law school is expensive as fuck and so is living (even modestly) close enough to the office to commute...

Preftige doesn’t pay back my student loans man. I’ll jump in a heartbeat to some “V30” shop if they’ll give me $5 more, first opportunity I get.

This.

If I had known what I know now, I would have chosen a different firm than the one I'm starting at.

There is a MASSIVE difference in all in comp between much of the V50. But you don't realize it until it's too late.

Between bonuses tied to billables (15K), moving expenses (some firms will pay for everything, while others will pay the bare minimum and refuse to reimburse for packing, storage, etc..), healthcare plans (there is a 5K plus difference amongst many of the firms, especially for those with kids), 10K stub before starting (some firms will offset this against future salary while others are just straight up giving you a 10K gift), and then smaller ones like gym membership (some firms will pay full cost while others will slightly subsidize).
Basically, you might be foregoing 50-60K by choosing between two "equal" firms. Schools, career service offices, and current associates don't talk about this enough. There needs to be more transparency during the recruiting process so that we can make better-informed decisions.

[Anonymous User]

Winston also matched!

Confirmed??

Yes:
https://abovethelaw.com/2018/06/let-the ... 90k-scale/

[Anonymous User]

I'm near top of class at HYS

striations

i don’t understand these references

you don’t talk about the movement of glaciers enough that striation isn’t in your autocorrect?

Though I doubt I'm as aristocratic as original anon above, I'm also at HYS, and also accepted an offer at V50ish firm over much "prestigier" options. Making it easier to spurn the prestige was homogeneity of pay across all firms (homogeneity isn't as blue bloddy as striation, right??). If that changes so does my calculus.

Also, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, hours not being tied to bonus is huge. For example, as it stands right now, Skadden's all in first-year salary is 180 (majority of first years do not make bonus) and Milbank's is 205 (no billable requirement).

Skadden's billable requirement is 1800 and there is no limit on pro bono hours counting. The vast majority of people easily hit that.

[Anonymous User]

Incoming first year at a V5, NYC. Firms need to get that this is a business, and that the raise barely keeps up with inflation and cost of living more broadly (especially if it’s the last for a long time).

Law school is expensive as fuck and so is living (even modestly) close enough to the office to commute...

Preftige doesn’t pay back my student loans man. I’ll jump in a heartbeat to some “V30” shop if they’ll give me $5 more, first opportunity I get.

This.

If I had known what I know now, I would have chosen a different firm than the one I'm starting at.

There is a MASSIVE difference in all in comp between much of the V50. But you don't realize it until it's too late.

Between bonuses tied to billables (15K), moving expenses (some firms will pay for everything, while others will pay the bare minimum and refuse to reimburse for packing, storage, etc..), healthcare plans (there is a 5K plus difference amongst many of the firms, especially for those with kids), 10K stub before starting (some firms will offset this against future salary while others are just straight up giving you a 10K gift), and then smaller ones like gym membership (some firms will pay full cost while others will slightly subsidize).
Basically, you might be foregoing 50-60K by choosing between two "equal" firms. Schools, career service offices, and current associates don't talk about this enough. There needs to be more transparency during the recruiting process so that we can make better-informed decisions.

Yup. And of you stay about 4 years, you're probably giving up over 100k in total value if you miss a bonus in year 3-4, etc. If that was a scholarship for law school, people would definitely choose differently. Law firms should be no different.

[Anonymous User]

All these posters bemoaning their choice to go to a v30 instead of a v5 because they are going to miss out on the new salary scale and Winston and Strawn just matched before any big name firm.

[Anonymous User]

All these posters bemoaning their choice to go to a v30 instead of a v5 because they are going to miss out on the new salary scale and Winston and Strawn just matched before any big name firm.

There is no increased prestige for a firm in matching the Milbank scale; it's a foregone conclusion that the entire market will shift for all top firms. The large firms may be adopting a wait-and-see approach, observing their peers because there is considerable embarrassment in matching and then being leapfrogged by a rival firm. Does S&C really want to match only to find out that CSM or DPW is paying more, and then have to match again? It makes an elite firm look stingy, trashy, low class, and frankly, signals that it is a "lesser" firm -- not only not a compensation leader, but not concerned with attracting the highest quality of associates.

[Anonymous User]

I'm near top of class at HYS

striations

i don’t understand these references

you don’t talk about the movement of glaciers enough that striation isn’t in your autocorrect?

Though I doubt I'm as aristocratic as original anon above, I'm also at HYS, and also accepted an offer at V50ish firm over much "prestigier" options. Making it easier to spurn the prestige was homogeneity of pay across all firms (homogeneity isn't as blue bloddy as striation, right??). If that changes so does my calculus.

Also, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, hours not being tied to bonus is huge. For example, as it stands right now, Skadden's all in first-year salary is 180 (majority of first years do not make bonus) and Milbank's is 205 (no billable requirement).

Skadden's billable requirement is 1800 and there is no limit on pro bono hours counting. The vast majority of people easily hit that.

This is false at almost all firms.

Almost every firm that has a requirement has it (like Skadden) at 2000, with 1800 billable and up to 200 pro bono. And at almost every one of these firms many if not most of the first and second years fail to hit these numbers. I have third-year friends at the "busy" groups at Cravath, DPW, etc and they have yet to break 2000 (luckily for them there is no billable requirement).

[Anonymous User]

I'm near top of class at HYS

striations

i don’t understand these references

you don’t talk about the movement of glaciers enough that striation isn’t in your autocorrect?

Though I doubt I'm as aristocratic as original anon above, I'm also at HYS, and also accepted an offer at V50ish firm over much "prestigier" options. Making it easier to spurn the prestige was homogeneity of pay across all firms (homogeneity isn't as blue bloddy as striation, right??). If that changes so does my calculus.

Also, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, hours not being tied to bonus is huge. For example, as it stands right now, Skadden's all in first-year salary is 180 (majority of first years do not make bonus) and Milbank's is 205 (no billable requirement).

Skadden's billable requirement is 1800 and there is no limit on pro bono hours counting. The vast majority of people easily hit that.

This is false at almost all firms.

Almost every firm that has a requirement has it (like Skadden) at 2000, with 1800 billable and up to 200 pro bono. And at almost every one of these firms many if not most of the first and second years fail to hit these numbers. I have third-year friends at the "busy" groups at Cravath, DPW, etc and they have yet to break 2000 (luckily for them there is no billable requirement).

I am an associate at skadden. The requirement is 1800 and there is no limit on how many pro bono can be applied to that number. A girl my year had over 400 pro bono hours our 1st year and she made bonus.

How did this place become such a dumpster fire of posters since I was in school?

[minnbills]

lol wtf I would kill to only bill 1800, even with no bonus.

The associates I know at major firms are billing 2500+

[Anonymous User]

Proskauer New Orleans associates making more than CravaTTTh NYC associates.

[Anonymous User]

All these posters bemoaning their choice to go to a v30 instead of a v5 because they are going to miss out on the new salary scale and Winston and Strawn just matched before any big name firm.

No. It's not about the 10K raise per se, rather the 10K hysteria has opened a much-needed conversation about the lack of parity in all-in biglaw compensation. There is a large gap between many firms that belies the uniform headline price. 1Ls should know about this.....and make decisions based off this.....which will hopefully lead to firms matching (billable/bonuses, health insurance, stub bonuses, etc..).

[Anonymous User]

lol wtf I would kill to only bill 1800, even with no bonus.

The associates I know at major firms are billing 2500+

Each group has its own character. For instance at Davis Polk if you're not in M&A, Credit or Capital Markets, you can easily slide through for 3-4 years billing less than 2000. I know because I did this before lateraling. This isn't to say it's stress-free -- a lot of the problems with biglaw come from lack of predictability, not sheer hours -- but it's definitely not an awful life.

[Anonymous User]

This is false at almost all firms.

Almost every firm that has a requirement has it (like Skadden) at 2000, with 1800 billable and up to 200 pro bono. And at almost every one of these firms many if not most of the first and second years fail to hit these numbers. I have third-year friends at the "busy" groups at Cravath, DPW, etc and they have yet to break 2000 (luckily for them there is no billable requirement).

What? Is this legitimately a concern? In talking to most of my first year friends at major firms, from V5s to V50s, I have yet to hear a someone worry about hitting hours - in fact, anything that I hear from them is usually a matter of way too many hours (i.e. consistently billing 200+ a month).

[Bubbles1012]

Proskauer New Orleans associates making more than CravaTTTh NYC associates.

I do not think Proskauer will match in NOLA but they will probably raise in the office nonetheless. Is 135 or 140K in New Orleans better than 190K in NY when you account for cost of living?

[Anonymous User]

This is false at almost all firms.

Almost every firm that has a requirement has it (like Skadden) at 2000, with 1800 billable and up to 200 pro bono. And at almost every one of these firms many if not most of the first and second years fail to hit these numbers. I have third-year friends at the "busy" groups at Cravath, DPW, etc and they have yet to break 2000 (luckily for them there is no billable requirement).

What? Is this legitimately a concern? In talking to most of my first year friends at major firms, from V5s to V50s, I have yet to hear a someone worry about hitting hours - in fact, anything that I hear from them is usually a matter of way too many hours (i.e. consistently billing 200+ a month).

No, its not. That poster has no idea wtf they're talking about.

[Anonymous User]

I'm near top of class at HYS

striations

i don’t understand these references

you don’t talk about the movement of glaciers enough that striation isn’t in your autocorrect?

Though I doubt I'm as aristocratic as original anon above, I'm also at HYS, and also accepted an offer at V50ish firm over much "prestigier" options. Making it easier to spurn the prestige was homogeneity of pay across all firms (homogeneity isn't as blue bloddy as striation, right??). If that changes so does my calculus.

Also, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, hours not being tied to bonus is huge. For example, as it stands right now, Skadden's all in first-year salary is 180 (majority of first years do not make bonus) and Milbank's is 205 (no billable requirement).

Skadden's billable requirement is 1800 and there is no limit on pro bono hours counting. The vast majority of people easily hit that.

This is false at almost all firms.

Almost every firm that has a requirement has it (like Skadden) at 2000, with 1800 billable and up to 200 pro bono. And at almost every one of these firms many if not most of the first and second years fail to hit these numbers. I have third-year friends at the "busy" groups at Cravath, DPW, etc and they have yet to break 2000 (luckily for them there is no billable requirement).

I am an associate at skadden. The requirement is 1800 and there is no limit on how many pro bono can be applied to that number. A girl my year had over 400 pro bono hours our 1st year and she made bonus.

How did this place become such a dumpster fire of posters since I was in school?

My wife works at Skadden. 1,800 hours with unlimited pro bono is correct. She still billed far, FAR above 1,800 hours last year though.

[Anonymous User]

There's no way Cravath lets Milbank and Proskauer do this to them, right?

Yeah, this is pretty embarrassing for Cravath unless they beat the raises. It's one thing when it's STB or S&C or DPW - firms Cravath views as peers - that are setting the market on compensation. It's another thing entirely when it's Milbank setting the market.

[Anonymous User]

There's no way Cravath lets Milbank and Proskauer do this to them, right?

Yeah, this is pretty embarrassing for Cravath unless they beat the raises. It's one thing when it's STB or S&C or DPW - firms Cravath views as peers - that are setting the market on compensation. It's another thing entirely when it's Milbank setting the market.

Hi Cravath, you're an overrated shit firm

change my mind

[Anonymous User]

There's no way Cravath lets Milbank and Proskauer do this to them, right?

Yeah, this is pretty embarrassing for Cravath unless they beat the raises. It's one thing when it's STB or S&C or DPW - firms Cravath views as peers - that are setting the market on compensation. It's another thing entirely when it's Milbank setting the market.

What the hell are you talking about? Milbank is a peer to STB, S&C and DPW in everything except for vault ranking, so if those are peers to Cravath, so is Milbank. Do you not know the kind of work Milbank does, the rates Milbank charges, or the profits Milbank makes?

[Anonymous User]

I'm near top of class at HYS

striations

i don’t understand these references

you don’t talk about the movement of glaciers enough that striation isn’t in your autocorrect?

Though I doubt I'm as aristocratic as original anon above, I'm also at HYS, and also accepted an offer at V50ish firm over much "prestigier" options. Making it easier to spurn the prestige was homogeneity of pay across all firms (homogeneity isn't as blue bloddy as striation, right??). If that changes so does my calculus.

Also, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, hours not being tied to bonus is huge. For example, as it stands right now, Skadden's all in first-year salary is 180 (majority of first years do not make bonus) and Milbank's is 205 (no billable requirement).

Skadden's billable requirement is 1800 and there is no limit on pro bono hours counting. The vast majority of people easily hit that.

This is false at almost all firms.

Almost every firm that has a requirement has it (like Skadden) at 2000, with 1800 billable and up to 200 pro bono. And at almost every one of these firms many if not most of the first and second years fail to hit these numbers. I have third-year friends at the "busy" groups at Cravath, DPW, etc and they have yet to break 2000 (luckily for them there is no billable requirement).

It certainly varies by firm. I'm a senior associate that has worked at a firm without a billable requirement but am now at a firm with a billable requirement of 2000 hours.

The important thing is to do your due diligence. I cannot stress this enough. Talk to as many people as possible and get as many specifics as possible. Once you have an offer, get coffee with multiple associates at different levels. A lot of people will parrot back firm selling points when speaking in generalities, but not many people will outright lie to you when asked specific questions. How many hours did you bill last year? How many of that was billable hours versus pro bono hours? How many nonbillable busdev, recruiting, etc. hours were on top of that? Was that a normal year for you? Is that normal for your group? For your class year? For the firm? Do you know anybody or have you heard of anybody who didn't get a bonus because they missed the hours requirement? If so, was it purely that person's fault, due to reasons outside of their control, or a mix of both?

Even at Kirkland, which does not have a minimum-hours requirement and gives most people above-market bonuses, there are still a handful of people who get below-class ratings and, accordingly, get bonuses substantially below market. It's important to know why they got those ratings and to internalize the risk — no matter how small — that you could be in that category at some point.

It would be silly to do otherwise considering that bonuses are such a huge part of your salary. I only moved to the firm I'm at now because I got comfortable with my chances (very high) of hitting the requirement — every partner and associate I talked to confirmed that no associate had ever missed out on a bonus due to failing to hit minimum hours. That being said, I would of course prefer if my firm didn't have this policy. It was probably the biggest factor in the "con" column when making my decision — unsurprising considering my years of practice imagining the downside in every possible scenario — although the "pro"s obviously won.

[Anonymous User]

People keep talking about Cravath waiting and firms being afraid of being leapfrogged.

Wouldn’t this be great for associates? I don’t think milbank would like getting shown up by Cravath at 200, then will raise to 210. Etc., etc.

The fear of embarrassment may cause the market to go above 200!

0% chance of Millbank doing anything but matching if someone jumps above them to 200.

Yeah, STB was pretty red-faced when DPW beat them on the bonus raise a few years ago, but it didn't start a bidding war; STB just matched a few days later.

[Anonymous User]

This is false at almost all firms.

Almost every firm that has a requirement has it (like Skadden) at 2000, with 1800 billable and up to 200 pro bono. And at almost every one of these firms many if not most of the first and second years fail to hit these numbers. I have third-year friends at the "busy" groups at Cravath, DPW, etc and they have yet to break 2000 (luckily for them there is no billable requirement).

What? Is this legitimately a concern? In talking to most of my first year friends at major firms, from V5s to V50s, I have yet to hear a someone worry about hitting hours - in fact, anything that I hear from them is usually a matter of way too many hours (i.e. consistently billing 200+ a month).

Meeting hours is something that almost every first year worries about at some point. Just wait until your first 60 hour month. I think the majority of big law associates hit their hours targets, but it's not like 90% or anything like that.