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Anonymous User
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by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2016 1:28 pm
They probably were the people who were going to crush it at OCI, but since they don't have to bid the firms at OCI that they did pre-OCI interviews with, they might be doing screeners with additional firms that they wouldn't have done screeners with before.
This is a good point. Just empirically though, I've noticed that the people I know that are coming in with offers have chosen to do fewer screeners, and only with the firms they're really interested in and would have bid anyway. Some have decided not to do OCI at all.
*Edited to include quote that I was responding to.
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Anonymous User
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by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:33 pm
Anyone have trouble with Morgan Lewis online application portal? Can't click ''apply'' even when I make sure I checked all the positions I want to apply for. Using correct browser too. Fuck
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El Pollito

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by El Pollito » Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone have trouble with Morgan Lewis online application portal? Can't click ''apply'' even when I make sure I checked all the positions I want to apply for. Using correct browser too. Fuck
email your app to recruiting?
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Monochromatic Oeuvre

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by Monochromatic Oeuvre » Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:35 pm
GoneSouth wrote:Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:El Pollito wrote:Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:El Pollito wrote:Sorry scared and afraid people with 0 CBs, hiring isn't down, you're just turds!
Look, I'm sympathetic to the paranoia and fear that happens this time of year, and my heart goes out to people with no callbacks. Biglaw hiring is a fucking stupid process that hires people kind of haphazardly, and a lot of meritorious people get left out.
I just don't think misinformation should be spread on the basis of comfort. This process sucks and it can be actually very difficult to reliably connect with interviewers (I don't care what anyone says; it's not at all like "a regular conversation"). But hiring is not down, or at least, there's absolutely zero evidence to suggest it is.
How is it misinformation? Sounds like classes started filling up pre-formal OCI.
Unless there's any indication the people getting pre-OCI offers weren't the ones who were gonna crush it at OCI regardless, no one has been disadvantaged by that.
They probably were the people who were going to crush it at OCI, but since they don't have to bid the firms at OCI that they did pre-OCI interviews with, they might be doing screeners with additional firms that they wouldn't have done screeners with before.
It doesn't matter. If you can still change your bidding, you're not gonna bid a worse firm than the one you have an offer with. A dude who walks into OCI with a Skadden offer isn't gonna bid on Chadbourne. And even if the schedule's set, he's not gonna accept a Chadbourne CB. Maybe firms are having their time wasted by students locked into interviews with firms they no longer need to consider, but Chadbourne still needs to hire X number of summers, regardless of how early Skadden does their hiring. It might delay the process, and the process gets delayed on the time--firms waiting on their yield, schools with later OCIs, whatever. But firms are not taking anyone pre-OCI who wouldn't have been a sure thing at OCI, so it's not costing anyone a job.
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daedalus2309

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by daedalus2309 » Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:50 pm
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:GoneSouth wrote:Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:El Pollito wrote:Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:El Pollito wrote:Sorry scared and afraid people with 0 CBs, hiring isn't down, you're just turds!
Look, I'm sympathetic to the paranoia and fear that happens this time of year, and my heart goes out to people with no callbacks. Biglaw hiring is a fucking stupid process that hires people kind of haphazardly, and a lot of meritorious people get left out.
I just don't think misinformation should be spread on the basis of comfort. This process sucks and it can be actually very difficult to reliably connect with interviewers (I don't care what anyone says; it's not at all like "a regular conversation"). But hiring is not down, or at least, there's absolutely zero evidence to suggest it is.
How is it misinformation? Sounds like classes started filling up pre-formal OCI.
Unless there's any indication the people getting pre-OCI offers weren't the ones who were gonna crush it at OCI regardless, no one has been disadvantaged by that.
They probably were the people who were going to crush it at OCI, but since they don't have to bid the firms at OCI that they did pre-OCI interviews with, they might be doing screeners with additional firms that they wouldn't have done screeners with before.
It doesn't matter. If you can still change your bidding, you're not gonna bid a worse firm than the one you have an offer with. A dude who walks into OCI with a Skadden offer isn't gonna bid on Chadbourne. And even if the schedule's set, he's not gonna accept a Chadbourne CB. Maybe firms are having their time wasted by students locked into interviews with firms they no longer need to consider, but Chadbourne still needs to hire X number of summers, regardless of how early Skadden does their hiring. It might delay the process, and the process gets delayed on the time--firms waiting on their yield, schools with later OCIs, whatever. But firms are not taking anyone pre-OCI who wouldn't have been a sure thing at OCI, so it's not costing anyone a job.
But doesn't this disproportionately disadvantage Greek applicants?
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Anonymous User
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by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:56 pm
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:GoneSouth wrote:Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:El Pollito wrote:Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:El Pollito wrote:Sorry scared and afraid people with 0 CBs, hiring isn't down, you're just turds!
Look, I'm sympathetic to the paranoia and fear that happens this time of year, and my heart goes out to people with no callbacks. Biglaw hiring is a fucking stupid process that hires people kind of haphazardly, and a lot of meritorious people get left out.
I just don't think misinformation should be spread on the basis of comfort. This process sucks and it can be actually very difficult to reliably connect with interviewers (I don't care what anyone says; it's not at all like "a regular conversation"). But hiring is not down, or at least, there's absolutely zero evidence to suggest it is.
How is it misinformation? Sounds like classes started filling up pre-formal OCI.
Unless there's any indication the people getting pre-OCI offers weren't the ones who were gonna crush it at OCI regardless, no one has been disadvantaged by that.
They probably were the people who were going to crush it at OCI, but since they don't have to bid the firms at OCI that they did pre-OCI interviews with, they might be doing screeners with additional firms that they wouldn't have done screeners with before.
It doesn't matter. If you can still change your bidding, you're not gonna bid a worse firm than the one you have an offer with. A dude who walks into OCI with a Skadden offer isn't gonna bid on Chadbourne. And even if the schedule's set, he's not gonna accept a Chadbourne CB. Maybe firms are having their time wasted by students locked into interviews with firms they no longer need to consider, but Chadbourne still needs to hire X number of summers, regardless of how early Skadden does their hiring. It might delay the process, and the process gets delayed on the time--firms waiting on their yield, schools with later OCIs, whatever. But firms are not taking anyone pre-OCI who wouldn't have been a sure thing at OCI, so it's not costing anyone a job.
Anecdotally, I got offers pre-OCI from firms that our career services said would be a huge stretch during regular recruiting. Personally, I found firms to be incredibly receptive to offering early screeners or straight to CBs, and doing those + networking and following up helped me do much better than I expected to during OCI.
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Anonymous User
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by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:57 pm
This is just one data point, so take it for what it's worth. My firm wants a slightly larger class than last year. We are almost done with OCI and have given out considerably fewer callbacks than we wanted or needed to. So, at least for us, callbacks are down but it's not because we wanted fewer students or hired too many in pre-OCI.
Some contributing factors:
-- students with low grades applying at firms where they don't have a shot. I did OCI at four schools. At each school, more than half of the people on my schedule were not even grade-eligible. I understand the urge to do this, but you're just wasting your own time and taking interview slots from people who could get offers.
-- students with no direction. Even if you have great grades, work experience, and personality, you need to also know what job you are applying for. If you tell me that you are interested in four different practice groups in four different offices, you may think you're being flexible, but --at least at my firm-- you're vetoing yourself. I'm looking for someone wants to be a capital markets lawyer in New York or a litigator in Chicago or whatever, not someone who has no clue what they want to do.
I really hope that all of you who don't have callbacks yet have better luck in the coming weeks. And remember that it's still early in the process. But in terms of the broader discussion of "what the hell is going on," I thought it would help to weigh in from the other side.
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GoneSouth

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by GoneSouth » Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:59 pm
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:GoneSouth wrote:Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:El Pollito wrote:Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:El Pollito wrote:Sorry scared and afraid people with 0 CBs, hiring isn't down, you're just turds!
Look, I'm sympathetic to the paranoia and fear that happens this time of year, and my heart goes out to people with no callbacks. Biglaw hiring is a fucking stupid process that hires people kind of haphazardly, and a lot of meritorious people get left out.
I just don't think misinformation should be spread on the basis of comfort. This process sucks and it can be actually very difficult to reliably connect with interviewers (I don't care what anyone says; it's not at all like "a regular conversation"). But hiring is not down, or at least, there's absolutely zero evidence to suggest it is.
How is it misinformation? Sounds like classes started filling up pre-formal OCI.
Unless there's any indication the people getting pre-OCI offers weren't the ones who were gonna crush it at OCI regardless, no one has been disadvantaged by that.
They probably were the people who were going to crush it at OCI, but since they don't have to bid the firms at OCI that they did pre-OCI interviews with, they might be doing screeners with additional firms that they wouldn't have done screeners with before.
It doesn't matter.
If you can still change your bidding, you're not gonna bid a worse firm than the one you have an offer with. A dude who walks into OCI with a Skadden offer isn't gonna bid on Chadbourne. And even if the schedule's set, he's not gonna accept a Chadbourne CB. Maybe firms are having their time wasted by students locked into interviews with firms they no longer need to consider, but Chadbourne still needs to hire X number of summers, regardless of how early Skadden does their hiring. It might delay the process, and the process gets delayed on the time--firms waiting on their yield, schools with later OCIs, whatever. But firms are not taking anyone pre-OCI who wouldn't have been a sure thing at OCI, so it's not costing anyone a job.
That would require students to know at the time they're doing their bidding which firms are "worse" for them than ones they have an offer with. I did some pre-OCI interviews and had some pre-OCI offers, but I still bid and did screeners with a number of firms that on paper were "worse" than places where I had offers because I figured that it didn't hurt me to take 20 minutes to talk to someone and I might end up really liking it. Also, to be honest, I didn't do a ton of in depth firm research until a few days before OCI, so bid a decent number of firms that had I looked into it more at the bidding stage, I wouldn't have bid. If I hadn't done pre-OCI interviews, I wouldn't have had room on my bid list for those firms.
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Anonymous User
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by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:05 pm
Anonymous User wrote:This is just one data point, so take it for what it's worth. My firm wants a slightly larger class than last year. We are almost done with OCI and have given out considerably fewer callbacks than we wanted or needed to. So, at least for us, callbacks are down but it's not because we wanted fewer students or hired too many in pre-OCI.
Some contributing factors:
-- students with low grades applying at firms where they don't have a shot. I did OCI at four schools. At each school, more than half of the people on my schedule were not even grade-eligible. I understand the urge to do this, but you're just wasting your own time and taking interview slots from people who could get offers.
-- students with no direction. Even if you have great grades, work experience, and personality, you need to also know what job you are applying for. If you tell me that you are interested in four different practice groups in four different offices, you may think you're being flexible, but --at least at my firm-- you're vetoing yourself. I'm looking for someone wants to be a capital markets lawyer in New York or a litigator in Chicago or whatever, not someone who has no clue what they want to do.
I really hope that all of you who don't have callbacks yet have better luck in the coming weeks. And remember that it's still early in the process. But in terms of the broader discussion of "what the hell is going on," I thought it would help to weigh in from the other side.
As a counter point and not to toot my own horn but I was lucky enough to do some pre oci and get an offer before. So oci I took a lot of shots as I'm right below median with some firms clearly not within the cutoff. Most have been dings but I've been surprised with the amount of callbacks I've gotten from firms I'm clearly below their "defined" cutoff. Sure I didn't go for Williams and Connelly but even some v20 in DC below median. Maybe it's because I have some unique work experience or whatever. But to categorically say someone like me who doesn't meet any firms cutoff is wasting our time is just untrue. Sure my results might not be typical but things can happen. And to be clear, I'm not a diverse candidate so I don't bring those aspects to the table either.
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Anonymous User
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by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:11 pm
Anonymous User wrote:Anonymous User wrote:This is just one data point, so take it for what it's worth. My firm wants a slightly larger class than last year. We are almost done with OCI and have given out considerably fewer callbacks than we wanted or needed to. So, at least for us, callbacks are down but it's not because we wanted fewer students or hired too many in pre-OCI.
Some contributing factors:
-- students with low grades applying at firms where they don't have a shot. I did OCI at four schools. At each school, more than half of the people on my schedule were not even grade-eligible. I understand the urge to do this, but you're just wasting your own time and taking interview slots from people who could get offers.
-- students with no direction. Even if you have great grades, work experience, and personality, you need to also know what job you are applying for. If you tell me that you are interested in four different practice groups in four different offices, you may think you're being flexible, but --at least at my firm-- you're vetoing yourself. I'm looking for someone wants to be a capital markets lawyer in New York or a litigator in Chicago or whatever, not someone who has no clue what they want to do.
I really hope that all of you who don't have callbacks yet have better luck in the coming weeks. And remember that it's still early in the process. But in terms of the broader discussion of "what the hell is going on," I thought it would help to weigh in from the other side.
As a counter point and not to toot my own horn but I was lucky enough to do some pre oci and get an offer before. So oci I took a lot of shots as I'm right below median with some firms clearly not within the cutoff. Most have been dings but I've been surprised with the amount of callbacks I've gotten from firms I'm clearly below their "defined" cutoff. Sure I didn't go for Williams and Connelly but even some v20 in DC below median. Maybe it's because I have some unique work experience or whatever. But to categorically say someone like me who doesn't meet any firms cutoff is wasting our time is just untrue. Sure my results might not be typical but things can happen. And to be clear, I'm not a diverse candidate so I don't bring those aspects to the table either.
(Same anon you replied to)
First, congrats on what sounds like a successful job search.
Second, you make a fair point, and I should clarify. Firms are different in how strict they treat grade cut-offs. Some are pretty flexible, while others -- like mine -- are pretty strict about them. If our "minimum" at a school is a 3.7, I can sell a 3.6, but it's going to take a pretty extraordinary candidate to go below that. Your school's career services office should have data from previous years that gives you insight into what the firms' real grade ranges are.
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Hikikomorist

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by Hikikomorist » Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:20 pm
Anonymous User wrote:This is just one data point, so take it for what it's worth. My firm wants a slightly larger class than last year. We are almost done with OCI and have given out considerably fewer callbacks than we wanted or needed to. So, at least for us, callbacks are down but it's not because we wanted fewer students or hired too many in pre-OCI.
Some contributing factors:
-- students with low grades applying at firms where they don't have a shot. I did OCI at four schools. At each school, more than half of the people on my schedule were not even grade-eligible. I understand the urge to do this, but you're just wasting your own time and taking interview slots from people who could get offers.
-- students with no direction. Even if you have great grades, work experience, and personality, you need to also know what job you are applying for. If you tell me that you are interested in four different practice groups in four different offices, you may think you're being flexible, but --at least at my firm-- you're vetoing yourself. I'm looking for someone wants to be a capital markets lawyer in New York or a litigator in Chicago or whatever, not someone who has no clue what they want to do.
I really hope that all of you who don't have callbacks yet have better luck in the coming weeks. And remember that it's still early in the process. But in terms of the broader discussion of "what the hell is going on," I thought it would help to weigh in from the other side.
If you feel comfortable doing so, please PM me with the firm and office.
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Anonymous User
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by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:33 pm
Too lazy to read through this egregiously long thread full of anecdata, but I can confirm that at least DPW, STB, and CSM are planning to cut the size of their summer classes for 2017.
Source: conversations between recruiting and associates/presentations by recruiting
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Anonymous User
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by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:46 pm
can't speculate as to other firms, but covington in NY is aiming to more than double their summer class size to be 20+
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Anonymous User
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by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:02 pm
Anonymous User wrote:Too lazy to read through this egregiously long thread full of anecdata, but I can confirm that at least DPW, STB, and CSM are planning to cut the size of their summer classes for 2017.
Source: conversations between recruiting and associates/presentations by recruiting
how do you know about all three of these firms? not being accusatory (I know 6-7 biglaw associates too), just curious
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Startled Rabbit

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by Startled Rabbit » Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:05 pm
Blue0613 wrote:This guy is awful, but not quite as bad as the token minority student at median who thinks he/she has so may offers because of his/her self-professed stunning personality... Cravath NYC/ Covington DC seems to love median with a self-described great personality...
It's a shitty thing to say, but sometimes the truth is shitty... Top 25% joint degrees lose to diverse median almost every time...
Maybe in interviews you haven't been able to properly hide the fact that your personality sucks and people wouldn't want to be around you day in, day out. Perhaps work on that.
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El Pollito

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by El Pollito » Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:06 pm
and maybe don't be a racist
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by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:22 pm
So is consensus that it's not that bad this year as earlier predicted
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lavarman84

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by lavarman84 » Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote:This is just one data point, so take it for what it's worth. My firm wants a slightly larger class than last year. We are almost done with OCI and have given out considerably fewer callbacks than we wanted or needed to. So, at least for us, callbacks are down but it's not because we wanted fewer students or hired too many in pre-OCI.
Some contributing factors:
-- students with low grades applying at firms where they don't have a shot. I did OCI at four schools. At each school, more than half of the people on my schedule were not even grade-eligible. I understand the urge to do this, but you're just wasting your own time and taking interview slots from people who could get offers.
-- students with no direction. Even if you have great grades, work experience, and personality, you need to also know what job you are applying for. If you tell me that you are interested in four different practice groups in four different offices, you may think you're being flexible, but --at least at my firm-- you're vetoing yourself. I'm looking for someone wants to be a capital markets lawyer in New York or a litigator in Chicago or whatever, not someone who has no clue what they want to do.
I really hope that all of you who don't have callbacks yet have better luck in the coming weeks. And remember that it's still early in the process. But in terms of the broader discussion of "what the hell is going on," I thought it would help to weigh in from the other side.
I laughed at this. Those are some seriously unrealistic expectations. The majority of people don't know enough to know what practice group they should work for. I'm not sure how you can expect a person who only completed 1L to know that they want to be a capital markets lawyer. I doubt many 1Ls have more than a vague idea of what a capital markets lawyer does.
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Anonymous User
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by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:33 pm
lawman84 wrote:Anonymous User wrote:This is just one data point, so take it for what it's worth. My firm wants a slightly larger class than last year. We are almost done with OCI and have given out considerably fewer callbacks than we wanted or needed to. So, at least for us, callbacks are down but it's not because we wanted fewer students or hired too many in pre-OCI.
Some contributing factors:
-- students with low grades applying at firms where they don't have a shot. I did OCI at four schools. At each school, more than half of the people on my schedule were not even grade-eligible. I understand the urge to do this, but you're just wasting your own time and taking interview slots from people who could get offers.
-- students with no direction. Even if you have great grades, work experience, and personality, you need to also know what job you are applying for. If you tell me that you are interested in four different practice groups in four different offices, you may think you're being flexible, but --at least at my firm-- you're vetoing yourself. I'm looking for someone wants to be a capital markets lawyer in New York or a litigator in Chicago or whatever, not someone who has no clue what they want to do.
I really hope that all of you who don't have callbacks yet have better luck in the coming weeks. And remember that it's still early in the process. But in terms of the broader discussion of "what the hell is going on," I thought it would help to weigh in from the other side.
I laughed at this. Those are some seriously unrealistic expectations. The majority of people don't know enough to know what practice group they should work for. I'm not sure how you can expect a person who only completed 1L to know that they want to be a capital markets lawyer.
I doubt many 1Ls have more than a vague idea of what a capital markets lawyer does.
Exactly. it is ridiculous to expect your SAs to know what they want to practice when they have no real idea what a lawyer in that field does. as a matter of fact, it seems more like the quoted interviewer is just playing into the hand of anyone that blatantly lies after doing 30 seconds of research.
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Anonymous User
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by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2016 6:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote:Too lazy to read through this egregiously long thread full of anecdata, but I can confirm that at least DPW, STB, and CSM are planning to cut the size of their summer classes for 2017.
Source: conversations between recruiting and associates/presentations by recruiting
This is true for cravath. Our yield was very high last summer, resulting in a very big 2016 summer class. The firm wants a smaller class next summer, more in line with our normal numbers. Also, we apparently extended 25 offers pre OCI, many of which were accepted. I would expect yield to be similarly high this summer, if not higher, so offers may indeed be harder to come by.
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acr

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by acr » Sat Aug 13, 2016 6:49 pm
I mass mailed 50 firms on Friday and got 3 screeners today. Keep grinding folks. Now is not the time to get complacent after a tough OCI. It's not over yet
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Anonymous User
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by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:23 pm
Anonymous User wrote:Anonymous User wrote:Too lazy to read through this egregiously long thread full of anecdata, but I can confirm that at least DPW, STB, and CSM are planning to cut the size of their summer classes for 2017.
Source: conversations between recruiting and associates/presentations by recruiting
This is true for cravath. Our yield was very high last summer, resulting in a very big 2016 summer class. The firm wants a smaller class next summer, more in line with our normal numbers. Also, we apparently extended 25 offers pre OCI, many of which were accepted. I would expect yield to be similarly high this summer, if not higher, so offers may indeed be harder to come by.
DPW told associates that it's shooting for 120ish this year whereas last year we had 150ish. Recruiting also said it generally plans to call back less to achieve this instead of calling back the same and offering less.
We had a ton of pre-OCI callbacks but respected schools' OCS' that stipulated no pre-OCI interviews (Penn and HLS at least I think).
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Anonymous User
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by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:25 pm
should I re-massmail firms I massmailed in july that never responded?
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Anonymous User
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by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:47 pm
Chicago student here. My impression is that things are looking pretty bi-modal. Everyone I am close enough with to know details of CBs has either 0-2 or 6+. We still have 3 days of interviews left, so the vibe is concerned, but not panicky at this point.
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enibs

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by enibs » Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:01 am
My sense is that overall hiring is not being cut back materially (certainly nothing like the 2009 bloodbath). Firms that had larger summer programs in 2016 than targeted because of higher than normal yield will look to cut back to their normal size, but I don't view that as generally reducing hiring overall.
Assuming overall hiring is not being cut back, the explosion of pre-OCI offers this year shouldn't change success rates in the long run, but it may be introducing some distortions in the process. From the firm's perspective, if they have a bunch of pre-OCI offers outstanding (which they may if they're honoring the NALP rule that requires pre-OCI offers to remain outstanding for at least 28 days from the first day of OCI), they will rationally be conservative initially about the number of callbacks they give from OCI. However, it would also be rational for a firm to keep more of a waitlist than usual, given that students holding pre-OCI offers may decline callbacks at a higher than normal rate.
One question I have is whether those of you who have few or no callbacks to date have actually received rejections from most of the OCI firms you interviewed with, or if you just haven't heard from many of them yet. If the latter, that would be consistent with the waitlist theory.
The pre-OCI offer phenomenon may also mess up the firms' ability to predict yield. If firms give callbacks and offers on the basis of their historical yield, some may end up with smaller summer classes than they were targeting, which may result in openings down the road for people who struck out in OCI. There's always a little of this, but if pre-OCI offers mess up a lot of firms' yield predictions, there may be more of it than usual.
Note that the foregoing is speculative, but we don't have historical experience with the level of pre-OCI offers that we've seen this year, which makes it harder to predict how things are going to shake out.
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