Michigan 2014 OCI Thread!!!!!!! Forum

[Druid]

Well what's your GPA and do you ever want to clerk?

3.566 (which is evidently a popular GPA around here) and... maybe? I'm really enjoying working for a judge this summer, but I have some geographic/family constraints that pretty much bar going to, say, South Dakota just to do a federal clerkship.

Stay on the journal. But yes, it is going to blow.

[Anonymous User]

3.566 plus a solid start to your second year would actually be competitive for a lot of clerkships, not just random ones. Look at the distribution on those, keeping in mind that the curve has changed. You're probably not getting a circuit court (though someone with a 2.75 did), but SDNY, E.D. PA, N.D. IL, E.D. MI, those could all be real possibilities. Apparently more than a quarter of district court clerks don't do a journal, so it doesn't look disqualifying, although maybe that quarter were the folks who went to South Dakota.

This is completely inaccurate- where are you getting your information? A 3.566 is probably not competitive for ED Pa or ND IL, and it is especially not competitive for SDNY. SDNY looks for basically feeder grades. A 3.566 is probably an uphill battle for district court clerkships, especially without law review. But it is not completely impossible; you just have to apply broadly.

[Anonymous User]

3.566 plus a solid start to your second year would actually be competitive for a lot of clerkships, not just random ones. Look at the distribution on those, keeping in mind that the curve has changed. You're probably not getting a circuit court (though someone with a 2.75 did), but SDNY, E.D. PA, N.D. IL, E.D. MI, those could all be real possibilities. Apparently more than a quarter of district court clerks don't do a journal, so it doesn't look disqualifying, although maybe that quarter were the folks who went to South Dakota.

This is completely inaccurate- where are you getting your information? A 3.566 is probably not competitive for ED Pa or ND IL, and it is especially not competitive for SDNY. SDNY looks for basically feeder grades. A 3.566 is probably an uphill battle for district court clerkships, especially without law review. But it is not completely impossible; you just have to apply broadly.

Not anonymous from above, but the clerkship GPA info available from OCP does align closely to what the poster said, especially with the caveat that the curve has changed. Median GPA for ED PA was 3.537 and ND IL was 3.55.

So, yea....

[Anonymous User]

3.566 plus a solid start to your second year would actually be competitive for a lot of clerkships, not just random ones. Look at the distribution on those, keeping in mind that the curve has changed. You're probably not getting a circuit court (though someone with a 2.75 did), but SDNY, E.D. PA, N.D. IL, E.D. MI, those could all be real possibilities. Apparently more than a quarter of district court clerks don't do a journal, so it doesn't look disqualifying, although maybe that quarter were the folks who went to South Dakota.

This is completely inaccurate- where are you getting your information? A 3.566 is probably not competitive for ED Pa or ND IL, and it is especially not competitive for SDNY. SDNY looks for basically feeder grades. A 3.566 is probably an uphill battle for district court clerkships, especially without law review. But it is not completely impossible; you just have to apply broadly.

Not anonymous from above, but the clerkship GPA info available from OCP does align closely to what the poster said, especially with the caveat that the curve has changed. Median GPA for ED PA was 3.537 and ND IL was 3.55.

So, yea....

I'm the poster from above who said 3.566 is not competitive for these districts. Thanks for relaying the OCP information; I should have checked OCP's numbers before posting. But honestly, I'm not sure I trust the OCP numbers based on this last application cycle; I agree with the poster who said last year was brutal. Also, this is completely anecdotal, but I can think of four people who have interviewed for SDNY recently: three of them had GPAs close to 4.0 (if not above) and one of them graduated magna. Yet OCP says the median for New York is 3.65? Again, all anecdotal, but it seems to indicate that the OCP numbers are off. I'm also relying on traditional TLS wisdom that SDNY is super competitive. Perhaps I am way off.

Good luck.

[Anonymous User]

I thought 3.7 was the line for magna for all recent classes until 2015.

Anyway, there's some fluctuation in difficulty year to year, and obviously we've got a new curve, but the other thing may be that factors other than GPA that tend to drive clerkship selections. That may explain why some people close to a 4.0 struggle while others under 3.5 are successful.

[Anonymous User]

Firms aren't going to see our bid list, correct? And the only way they can know where else we bid is by talking to each other or something?

Sorry if everyone already knows this, but I think I've been told both things. Don't want to tell firm in location X I am focused only on location X and have them see I also bid another city or two.

[Anonymous User]

Firms aren't going to see our bid list, correct? And the only way they can know where else we bid is by talking to each other or something?

Sorry if everyone already knows this, but I think I've been told both things. Don't want to tell firm in location X I am focused only on location X and have them see I also bid another city or two.

Correct. As far as I understood it from OCP, firms will know where we bid them but not our overall bidlist. They will likely ask you what other firms/markets you are looking at though.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know which firms have been added (or removed) from Symplicity? (Per OCP's email)

[Anonymous User]

So there will be no difference whether I submit my bid tomorrow or next week before the deadline, right? i.e., it's not first-come first-served?

[Druid]

So there will be no difference whether I submit my bid tomorrow or next week before the deadline, right? i.e., it's not first-come first-served?

Correct.

[scaliaantics]

Firms aren't going to see our bid list, correct? And the only way they can know where else we bid is by talking to each other or something?

Sorry if everyone already knows this, but I think I've been told both things. Don't want to tell firm in location X I am focused only on location X and have them see I also bid another city or two.

Correct. As far as I understood it from OCP, firms will know where we bid them but not our overall bidlist. They will likely ask you what other firms/markets you are looking at though.

No. Firms know that you bid them, but not where, and who else you bid on.

[Anonymous User]

Above is ambiguous. Firms know neither where on the list you bid them nor the names of other firms you bid on.

Correct?

[Druid]

Correct.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know what happened to goldberg kohn? I'm not seeing them on Symplicity.

[Anonymous User]

Did people notice that Mayer Brown folded it's New York interviews in with its Chicago interviews? Last year Chicago Mayer Brown was 56/56 for a 100% rate, while New York was 22/99 for a 22% rate. The New York office made two offers, the Chicago office 13. My first observation is that people should be bidding on the locations where firms actually make offers, but beyond that, where are people bidding Mayer Chicago/New York this year? If people are picking the New York office high based on the low GPA distribution, it's going to make it tough for Chicago folks (probably the higher GPA group) to get interviews. Have you all recognized this and moved them up your lists (Chicago) or down your lists (New York)? Or are people oblivious to this sort of thing?

Or am I missing something? Does the firm actually get to allocate spots in a way we don't see?

[Druid]

If you're asking whether people are bidding based on whether or not it hurts or helps your classmates, then I hope people aren't following that lead.

[scaliaantics]

I don't understand your question. Looking at the chart, Mayer Brown has 5 rooms. If I had to guess, they'll be set up something along the lines of 2 rooms for Chicago, 1 for NY, 1 for everything else.They aren't combining the interviews at all. If you get Mayer Brown NY, you'll be in a different room than the Mayer Brown Chicago guys. There will be 8 slots for NY that Mayer has listed (number pulled out of my ass) and you're bidding for one of those spots.

[Anonymous User]

My point was that if you look at the bid rates from last year, unless I'm missing something, if people don't pick up on the change, Mayer Brown is likely to end up with a ton of New York people and no Chicago folks. On top of that, all the jobs are in Chicago.

What chart are you looking at?

I see 4 rooms for both Chicago and New York, and one for all other offices:
2014-08-07 4 Mayer Brown Chicago, IL, New York, NY 84
2014-08-07 1 Mayer Brown Los Angeles, CA, Charlotte, NC, Palo Alto, CA, Houston, TX, Washington, DC, New York, NY 21

[scaliaantics]

My point was that if you look at the bid rates from last year, unless I'm missing something, if people don't pick up on the change, Mayer Brown is likely to end up with a ton of New York people and no Chicago folks. On top of that, all the jobs are in Chicago.

You're assuming that the number of slots listed on the slots list implies a free for all. I would be very very shocked it Mayer hasn't told Michigan that they want 40 Chicago interviews, 20 New York interviews, 7 LA interviews etc. When you bid, you're bidding on interviews with the office you want. So if 123 people bid on Mayer NY and 40 Bid on Mayer Chicago, there is no reason to think that because of the NY mass overbid that the people that bid on Chicago won't be getting an interview.

But once again, this is speculation. I'd ask OCP if thats how it works

[Anonymous User]

With other firms, they're all divided up, and New York and Chicago appear together in the symplicity form too. I think the two have been combined, unless someone can point to something that says that the firms are getting to place limitations on who they interview that we don't see.

Go look at the data. They've splits it up. The data are on OCP's OCI page.

[scaliaantics]

With other firms, they're all divided up, and New York and Chicago appear together in the symplicity form too. I think the two have been combined, unless someone can point to something that says that the firms are getting to place limitations on who they interview that we don't see.

Go look at the data. They've splits it up. The data are on OCP's OCI page.

I did look at the data and you're right. I just think it would be supremely dumb, with the number of rooms they have, for interviews to be first come first serve. I think what probably happened was before Mayer told OCP how they were splitting it up, OCP released the list.

[Anonymous User]

With other firms, they're all divided up, and New York and Chicago appear together in the symplicity form too. I think the two have been combined, unless someone can point to something that says that the firms are getting to place limitations on who they interview that we don't see.

Go look at the data. They've splits it up. The data are on OCP's OCI page.

I did look at the data and you're right. I just think it would be supremely dumb, with the number of rooms they have, for interviews to be first come first serve. I think what probably happened was before Mayer told OCP how they were splitting it up, OCP released the list.

It's important that everyone understand that even if a firm lists offices together, that doesn't mean it's a free for all for those offices. The OCI guide specifically addresses this and says some firms do a free for all, others do allocate interviews by office. OCP doesn't release this info, according to the OCI guide because it changes often right up until bids are made. You can, though, get an idea of what's going on by looking at last year's data. It's clear for most firms, it's not a free for all.

[potted plant]

With other firms, they're all divided up, and New York and Chicago appear together in the symplicity form too. I think the two have been combined, unless someone can point to something that says that the firms are getting to place limitations on who they interview that we don't see.

Go look at the data. They've splits it up. The data are on OCP's OCI page.

My memory isn't 100% on this, but I'm almost certain this is the same way it was last year. It looks like a free for all, but Mayer Brown sorts it all out on their end. I'm not sure why they do this instead of having separate bids for separate offices, but it might allow them more flexibility to divvy up the slots they way they want after they know what everyone bid on. If you look at OCP's data, I think Mayer Brown had exactly 56 people bid for 56 Chicago slots last year. That seems like an improbable coincidence - why would Mayer Brown have exactly 56 slots? I'm guessing they picked that number after they found out how many people bid on the Chicago office. It would make sense for them to give interviews to basically everyone that bids Chicago and then fill any remaining slots they have with bids for other offices.

My advice - if you want to bid Mayer in Chicago you don't need to put them super high. If you want NY or any other office you need to put them at the very top.

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone else with ~3.2 want to discuss their bidlist with me?

[Anonymous User]

Thinking about how this year's bid-to-interview will change given the curve adjustment. What do you guys think?

At first I was thinking a lot more people would participate in OCI, as more of our final GPAs will meet the firm GPA guidelines we've been given. But the more I think about this the less impact I think it will have, especially with our reduced class size.

Another thing I've been wondering about is the composition of our class compared to previous years. Anyone have anything to say about whether we're more small market-focused, PI-focused, or anything else that may affect how likely you are to do OCI? I guess something else that could be useful to know is whether they changed their admissions standards for our class.

Last thing I think could play a role is OCP's advice to pursue options outside of OCI. Did they push this as hard a year ago? If not, maybe a lot of will already have jobs come August 7 and not bother with OCI.

Right now I'm thinking it will be on average 10-20% (not percentage points) harder to get interviews for firms with like a 3.5 median and below, but not much different for firms with medians above that.

You guys have any thoughts?