"I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..." Forum

[Anonymous User]

Here's the thing. Going to law school to get biglaw is just as stupid as going to law school to clerk. Both are just a résumé stamp. They're not a career path. So when people say "which school gives me the best biglaw shot?" It sounds kinda dumb. Okay you clerked. Okay you held on to that biglaw job 3 years. Then what? 4 years post grad, you still have the rest of your life to work. If that NEXT job isn't why you're going to law school, well, you shouldn't go to law school.

[beepboopbeep]

Every time I work from home I'm like, *doc review for 10-15 minutes* *porn* *taquitos* *watch beheading videos for like 4 hours* *5-10 minutes of doc review* *get ready for bed*.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who found this exceptionally creepy, even as a flame.

[rayiner]

Here's the thing. Going to law school to get biglaw is just as stupid as going to law school to clerk. Both are just a résumé stamp. They're not a career path. So when people say "which school gives me the best biglaw shot?" It sounds kinda dumb. Okay you clerked. Okay you held on to that biglaw job 3 years. Then what? 4 years post grad, you still have the rest of your life to work. If that NEXT job isn't why you're going to law school, well, you shouldn't go to law school.

I agree with this, but caution that people shouldn't take this to mean that they can just "skip big law" and go into what really interests them. If you want to, say, work for an environmental law public interest organization, working a stint in big law first is a good way to get there. Getting these sorts of jobs requires biding your time looking for an opening. A lot of people I know that targeted those jobs directly just wound up unemployed for long stretches.

[rpupkin]

[/b]Every time I work from home I'm like, *doc review for 10-15 minutes* *porn* *taquitos* *watch beheading videos for like 4 hours* *5-10 minutes of doc review* *get ready for bed*.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who found this exceptionally creepy, even as a flame.

You'll have to put up with this sort of creepiness on a daily basis if you go to a V20 (or lower) firm. To avoid it, you'll have to at least get V10 or maybe even V5+STB.

[09042014]

Here's the thing. Going to law school to get biglaw is just as stupid as going to law school to clerk. Both are just a résumé stamp. They're not a career path. So when people say "which school gives me the best biglaw shot?" It sounds kinda dumb. Okay you clerked. Okay you held on to that biglaw job 3 years. Then what? 4 years post grad, you still have the rest of your life to work. If that NEXT job isn't why you're going to law school, well, you shouldn't go to law school.

I agree with this, but caution that people shouldn't take this to mean that they can just "skip big law" and go into what really interests them. If you want to, say, work for an environmental law public interest organization, working a stint in big law first is a good way to get there. Getting these sorts of jobs requires biding your time looking for an opening. A lot of people I know that targeted those jobs directly just wound up unemployed for long stretches.

I completely disagree for the reasons you stated. Very roughly big law* is how you launch a career in many fields of law in private practice. It's not the only way, but it's the main path. It's really just a subset of private practice firms.

*when I say big law I'm being pretty expansive. This includes boutiques and midlaw that operate in the same fashion as big law.

[Anonymous User]

Here's the thing. Going to law school to get biglaw is just as stupid as going to law school to clerk. Both are just a résumé stamp. They're not a career path. So when people say "which school gives me the best biglaw shot?" It sounds kinda dumb. Okay you clerked. Okay you held on to that biglaw job 3 years. Then what? 4 years post grad, you still have the rest of your life to work. If that NEXT job isn't why you're going to law school, well, you shouldn't go to law school.

I agree with this, but caution that people shouldn't take this to mean that they can just "skip big law" and go into what really interests them. If you want to, say, work for an environmental law public interest organization, working a stint in big law first is a good way to get there. Getting these sorts of jobs requires biding your time looking for an opening. A lot of people I know that targeted those jobs directly just wound up unemployed for long stretches.

I completely disagree for the reasons you stated. Very roughly big law* is how you launch a career in many fields of law in private practice. It's not the only way, but it's the main path. It's really just a subset of private practice firms.

*when I say big law I'm being pretty expansive. This includes boutiques and midlaw that operate in the same fashion as big law.

You miss the point. If a 0L knew it was likely they would end up accepting a $60k local govt gig to just get off the biglaw treadmill yesterday, they wouldn't go to law school in the first place. Too many go with biglaw as the goal, not the (realistic) biglaw exit options.

[09042014]

Here's the thing. Going to law school to get biglaw is just as stupid as going to law school to clerk. Both are just a résumé stamp. They're not a career path. So when people say "which school gives me the best biglaw shot?" It sounds kinda dumb. Okay you clerked. Okay you held on to that biglaw job 3 years. Then what? 4 years post grad, you still have the rest of your life to work. If that NEXT job isn't why you're going to law school, well, you shouldn't go to law school.

I agree with this, but caution that people shouldn't take this to mean that they can just "skip big law" and go into what really interests them. If you want to, say, work for an environmental law public interest organization, working a stint in big law first is a good way to get there. Getting these sorts of jobs requires biding your time looking for an opening. A lot of people I know that targeted those jobs directly just wound up unemployed for long stretches.

I completely disagree for the reasons you stated. Very roughly big law* is how you launch a career in many fields of law in private practice. It's not the only way, but it's the main path. It's really just a subset of private practice firms.

*when I say big law I'm being pretty expansive. This includes boutiques and midlaw that operate in the same fashion as big law.

You miss the point. If a 0L knew it was likely they would end up accepting a $60k local govt gig to just get off the biglaw treadmill yesterday, they wouldn't go to law school in the first place. Too many go with biglaw as the goal, not the (realistic) biglaw exit options.

Now I see your point and I agree.

[CitrusFruit]

So accepting that all the people in this thread who work in BigLaw say it sucks (I'll trust you all on this), how much debt is reasonable for a 0L to take on without needing to work BigLaw. I know 250k totally screws you. What about 150k? 100k? 50k? I want to learn from you guys and make a more informed decision.

[09042014]

So accepting that all the people in this thread who work in BigLaw say it sucks (I'll trust you all on this), how much debt is reasonable for a 0L to take on without needing to work BigLaw. I know 250k totally screws you. What about 150k? 100k? 50k? I want to learn from you guys and make a more informed decision.

Depends what you want to do. Anything over the amount of your first year salary is generally unadvisable. So I really wouldn't go over 60k. Which means don't go to law school period.

I think TCR is t14 for around 100k, do big law for 2 years while not giving a fuck, billing 1700 hours a year, then exiting to something better.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

People making the law school decision need to focus on their situation 5+ years out of law school. I think that it's gotten to the point where at the first step a lot of people realize they are not a special snowflake. Someone attending Duke/UVA realizes they have only a little bit better than a coin flip chance of biglaw/fed clerk. People have a pretty realistic idea of where they will be the first few years out of law school.

But what are the chances that from years 5-30/35 after graduation they will be making $200,000+ per year? I don't know the answer but my guess is that rather than a coin flip its more like 1/5 because there are only so many non-biglaw jobs where you can make that kind of money. You can go in-house, if you are good at a niche legal specialty you can maybe make that at a boutique firm, or if you become a partner at regional big law or mid law you can probably make that. But tons of people never make it from big law to these paths. If anyone has data on this which is recent (ex. people who graduated from law school in the 90s, and their salaries from 2000-present) please share.

[Old Gregg]

I think that it's gotten to the point where at the first step a lot of people realize they are not a special snowflake.

Yeah... lot's of people who get V5/V10 offers still feel that way...

[Old Gregg]

But what are the chances that from years 5-30/35 after graduation they will be making $200,000+ per year? I don't know the answer but my guess is that rather than a coin flip its more like 1/5 because there are only so many non-biglaw jobs where you can make that kind of money. You can go in-house, if you are good at a niche legal specialty you can maybe make that at a boutique firm, or if you become a partner at regional big law or mid law you can probably make that. But tons of people never make it from big law to these paths. If anyone has data on this which is recent (ex. people who graduated from law school in the 90s, and their salaries from 2000-present) please share.

Chances are pretty high. Just really depends on what you do and where you go. If you want to go inhouse at a very junior level or public interest or government, you're not going to be getting $200k for sure. But if you stick to it for a bit the options get pretty decent. Know plenty who went to jobs paying at least $200k all in (and for in-house folks, the benefits were genuinely better, including 401(k) matching, which probably added a good extra $10-20k to their salaries when you really think about it).

[Mal Reynolds]

What year would be ideal to exit biglaw then.

[Dr. Mantis Toboggan]

But what are the chances that from years 5-30/35 after graduation they will be making $200,000+ per year? I don't know the answer but my guess is that rather than a coin flip its more like 1/5 because there are only so many non-biglaw jobs where you can make that kind of money. You can go in-house, if you are good at a niche legal specialty you can maybe make that at a boutique firm, or if you become a partner at regional big law or mid law you can probably make that. But tons of people never make it from big law to these paths. If anyone has data on this which is recent (ex. people who graduated from law school in the 90s, and their salaries from 2000-present) please share.

Chances are pretty high. Just really depends on what you do and where you go. If you want to go inhouse at a very junior level or public interest or government, you're not going to be getting $200k for sure. But if you stick to it for a bit the options get pretty decent. Know plenty who went to jobs paying at least $200k all in (and for in-house folks, the benefits were genuinely better, including 401(k) matching, which probably added a good extra $10-20k to their salaries when you really think about it).

The bennies are what I miss most about working for a corp. Matching 401(k), insurance was A LOT cheaper, hell I even had a (quasi) pension. But now I get all the free (shitty) coffee I can drink and free lunch every now and then, so I came out ahead right??

[Nelson]

People making the law school decision need to focus on their situation 5+ years out of law school.

This is a ludicrous statement. You can't make life decisions based on assumptions about 10 years out from the point of decision. Unless you're just using hyperbole to say that people should keep their debt low.

[PepperJack]

I haven't started in big law yet, but so far my personal experience consists of:

1.) Interviewing with attorneys who complain it's a lot of work, but they enjoy because of the people (which may or may not be standard script).

2.) People on the interwebs who spend their free time watching porn, eating taquitos and watching beheading videos claiming the above people lack basic social skills.

[Anonymous User]

People making the law school decision need to focus on their situation 5+ years out of law school.

This is a ludicrous statement. You can't make life decisions based on assumptions about 10 years out from the point of decision. Unless you're just using hyperbole to say that people should keep their debt low.

In general I would agree with you. But if you're going to go to law school (at massive expense) and your only goal is a temporary job, you do need to think more years out. If what's available to 2/3s of biglaw washouts doesn't appeal to you (or doesn't pay what you expect to get paid given your debt load for law school), don't go.

[Anonymous User]

There are actually quite a few non-biglaw attorneys who make $200k+. I know a handful of white collar criminal defense lawyers who practice almost exclusively in federal court and easily make that much, probably double. One took a $55k retainer on a case that I was prosecuting. It ended up being a three-day trial, of course there are no depositions in criminal fed court, so not really that time-consuming.

I know a handful of general practice small law partners who clear just a shade under $200k.

Prominent family law attorneys--people who do divorces for rich people--easily clear $200k.

Of course, the question is how to get into one of those positions. With the market so saturated, it's definitely not easy to just say, "I'm gonna hang a shingle and be a premier defense lawyer or family lawyer," because for every one who makes a quarter-mil a year, there are probably a dozen who toil away and consider it a good year to hit high five-figures. You can take a gamble and get on as an associate for one of these guys, but you're going to make half of market rate for the area in secondary markets and one third or less of market in NYC and not have any guarantee of ever being partner.

You also can't just transition from biglaw associate to small law partner. So you'd have to take a massive paycut and work your way up.

[worldtraveler]

Here's the thing. Going to law school to get biglaw is just as stupid as going to law school to clerk. Both are just a résumé stamp. They're not a career path. So when people say "which school gives me the best biglaw shot?" It sounds kinda dumb. Okay you clerked. Okay you held on to that biglaw job 3 years. Then what? 4 years post grad, you still have the rest of your life to work. If that NEXT job isn't why you're going to law school, well, you shouldn't go to law school.

I agree with this, but caution that people shouldn't take this to mean that they can just "skip big law" and go into what really interests them. If you want to, say, work for an environmental law public interest organization, working a stint in big law first is a good way to get there. Getting these sorts of jobs requires biding your time looking for an opening. A lot of people I know that targeted those jobs directly just wound up unemployed for long stretches.

Can't say I really agree with that.

[AJS915]

Success breeds confidence, and the people in this thread have succeeded in terms of getting into a top law school, doing well enough in law school to get big law and doing well enough in big law to stay in big law. Therefore, it's only human nature to think "If I beat the odds in this then I could've done it in something else that pays more and has less shit." This is probably true for some, and probably false for others. I think many people who go into big law aspiring to last for as long as possible are operating under the logic that "the odds of me doing this well in anything else are low enough to justify me not complaining about most things I'd otherwise complain about." Like anything else that's stressful and life-devoting, I'm sure you increasingly second guess it. But instead of blasting about how badly your coworkers suck on a public forum maybe it'd be more prosocial to just speak to your shrink about it.

Prosocial?

Be honest: Are you a pick-up artist?

real accusation, or "neg"?

[patogordo]

lol at thinking waking up before 7 am is hard

i didn't say it was hard. i just said i'd rather die.

[yomisterd]

lol at thinking waking up before 7 am is hard

i didn't say it was hard. i just said i'd rather die.

how much sleep does the average big law associate get?

[84651846190]

lol at thinking waking up before 7 am is hard

i didn't say it was hard. i just said i'd rather die.

how much sleep does the average big law associate get?

For me, not enough. Usually 5-7 hours per night.

[Cal Trask]

I haven't started in big law yet, but so far my personal experience consists of:

1.) Interviewing with attorneys who complain it's a lot of work, but they enjoy because of the people (which may or may not be standard script).

2.) People on the interwebs who spend their free time watching porn, eating taquitos and watching beheading videos claiming the above people lack basic social skills.

Sorry to be posting in here as a 0L, but this needs to be reiterated. This has been a great thread with a lot of contributions from people with actual experience in the field. Please don't shit it up if you don't have the experience to match. Also, re: 2, learn to recognize a joke.

0L - thank you for your input, but please see the following: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=189981 While we appreciate your contributions to the TLS site, this forum is for students and graduates. Thank you for your understanding.

[d cooper]

lol at thinking waking up before 7 am is hard

i didn't say it was hard. i just said i'd rather die.

how much sleep does the average big law associate get?

For me, not enough. Usually 5-7 hours per night.

Out of everything that's been said, this is the dealbreaker.