Jones Day Forum

[Anonymous User]

Current JD associate. I'll answer questions here...but if you want truly candid answers, PMs probably won't get you there.

[homestyle28]

Current JD associate. I'll answer questions here...but if you want truly candid answers, PMs probably won't get you there.

Do I know you?

[TLSModBot]

Current JD associate. I'll answer questions here...but if you want truly candid answers, PMs probably won't get you there.

Do I know you?

Chances are good - it's not like Jones Day is very big with tons of offices or anything

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

I'm mostly interested in how the compensation works. E.g. is the summer stipend a "salary advance" or actual compensation. In addition, at what point are we eligible to get an increase from 160k.

[Anonymous User]

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... day+nights

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

I'm mostly interested in how the compensation works. E.g. is the summer stipend a "salary advance" or actual compensation. In addition, at what point are we eligible to get an increase from 160k.

Same earlier anon: The summer stipend is a true stipend...its not a salary advance. You have to pay a pro rated portion of it and your bar expenses back if you leave the firm within 2 years of starting (you signed something when you accepted your offer). But other than that its yours to keep.

You'll get an increase from 160k early in the second December after you start (i.e. 13/14 months in).

[BarbellDreams]

I am close friends with a GC for a corp. He said the nickname for Jones Day he always hears from associates that he has worked with from there is "Jones Day, Night and Weekend".

[Anonymous User]

Future JD associate / former summer associate here.

I am close friends with a GC for a corp. He said the nickname for Jones Day he always hears from associates that he has worked with from there is "Jones Day, Night and Weekend".

Because it is a funny play on words. Any big law firm that ends with the word "Day" invites such a pun. Let's be real.

A small committee determines your compensation based on your reviews / performance and no one else (not even your partners) knows your compensation. From the various associates and partners I spoke with, you are either very happy with your compensation (above market) or you are very unhappy with your compensation (well below market). If you are happy about your compensation, you are doing something right (doing good work, sucking the right D, etc.). You appreciate the secret compensation structure (because you believe the system works, and no one builds resentment toward you) and you drink the Jones Day secret comp koolaid (because why not).

If you are unhappy, you talk shit about the opaque, blackbox compensation, complain that the firm is cheap, and leave. In a sense, the way JD shows you that you are unwanted is by continuing to pay you $160,000 until you get fed up and leave.

In other words, JD does its comp like a company, i.e., no one knows what each other makes, and the people who do good work / suck the right D get to make more money. Nothing out of the ordinary from a real world perspective.

[bearsfan23]

Future JD associate / former summer associate here.

I am close friends with a GC for a corp. He said the nickname for Jones Day he always hears from associates that he has worked with from there is "Jones Day, Night and Weekend".

Because it is a funny play on words. Any big law firm that ends with the word "Day" invites such a pun. Let's be real.

A small committee determines your compensation based on your reviews / performance and no one else (no even your partners) know your compensation. From the various associates and partners I spoke with, you are either very happy with your compensation (above market) or you are very unhappy with your compensation (well below market). If you are happy about your compensation, you are doing something right (doing good work, sucking the right D, etc.). You appreciate the secret compensation structure (because you believe the system works, and no one builds resentment toward you) and you drink the Jones Day secret comp koolaid (because why not).

If you are unhappy, you talk shit about the opaque, blackbox compensation, complain that the firm is cheap, and leave. In a sense, the way JD shows you that you are unwanted is by continuing to pay you $160,000 until you get fed up and leave.

In other words, JD does its comp like a company, i.e., no one knows what each other makes, and the people who do good work / suck the right D gets to make more money. Nothing out of the ordinary from a real world perspective.

Wait, JD doesn't do any sort of lockstep raises at all? Not even a modified type of system?

I just find that pretty unusual, but definitely good to know

[Anonymous User]

Future JD associate / former summer associate here.

I am close friends with a GC for a corp. He said the nickname for Jones Day he always hears from associates that he has worked with from there is "Jones Day, Night and Weekend".

Because it is a funny play on words. Any big law firm that ends with the word "Day" invites such a pun. Let's be real.

A small committee determines your compensation based on your reviews / performance and no one else (no even your partners) know your compensation. From the various associates and partners I spoke with, you are either very happy with your compensation (above market) or you are very unhappy with your compensation (well below market). If you are happy about your compensation, you are doing something right (doing good work, sucking the right D, etc.). You appreciate the secret compensation structure (because you believe the system works, and no one builds resentment toward you) and you drink the Jones Day secret comp koolaid (because why not).

If you are unhappy, you talk shit about the opaque, blackbox compensation, complain that the firm is cheap, and leave. In a sense, the way JD shows you that you are unwanted is by continuing to pay you $160,000 until you get fed up and leave.

In other words, JD does its comp like a company, i.e., no one knows what each other makes, and the people who do good work / suck the right D gets to make more money. Nothing out of the ordinary from a real world perspective.

Wait, JD doesn't do any sort of lockstep raises at all? Not even a modified type of system?

I just find that pretty unusual, but definitely good to know

No, but I am sure they follow the market lockstep to some degree unless you completely blow at your job. Just because JD is blackbox, it doesn't mean they don't pay attention to the market. They know that lawyers follow market trends and they will jump ship if they aren't compensated to their satisfaction. There is a conspiracy theory that blackbox is just a way for the firm to underpay everyone and get away with it. But lawyers aren't stupid and neither is JD. They pay the right price for the right people to stay.

But as a matter of policy, they start out at $160,000 and the rest is in a black hole. JD also does not pay bonuses, and instead pays you the market bonus (or above market bonus) as a part of your salary throughout the next year. I like this for 3 reasons. 1) You don't get taxed at the bonus rate. 2) You don't get a lump-sum bonus that you can waste right away. 3) Good for the firm financially (which in a way is good for you) in that people don't get to take the bonus and peace out. You have to stay the entire next year to reap the benefits of your previous year's bonus. The firm wants you to stay long-term (and want uncommitted people out sooner, I guess?) and this is one of the way they show it.

[Johann]

Lol the amount of pro firm/partner and anti lawyer associate policies being justified in this thread is phenomenal. If you don't see how the above policies are awful for anyone not a partner you are a sucker. I get it if it's your only option but this place is a shithole.

[PvblivsScipio]

Lol the amount of pro firm/partner and anti lawyer associate policies being justified in this thread is phenomenal. If you don't see how the above policies are awful for anyone not a partner you are a sucker. I get it if it's your only option but this place is a shithole.

Seriously, I can tell who has drank the Jones Day kool aid. It's ridiculous. Jones Day has some of the most anti-associate policies, and somehow that's a good thing? They don't pay bonuses and that's better? GTFO.

I will say that I have a pretty negative impression of Jones Day (and Mayer Brown, but that's for a different time). Plus, one of the attorneys I used to work for and absolutely respect passionately hates Jones Day. He abhors working with or against their attorneys, and he's a pretty mild mannered and even-keeled dude. But if you bring up Jones Day he gets heated. JD present themselves as different and sell it as a positive, but I just don't see how it's good for anyone but the partners.

[Anonymous User]

Let me put it this way: I summered there and GTFO during 3L recruiting.

[Anonymous User]

The associate lateral market is actually robust at this point. Anyone who thinks JD can succeed by generally paying 3rd-5th years below market, think about how this would work. Why would someone in that position stay with the firm?

[Anonymous User]

I will say that I have a pretty negative impression of Jones Day (and Mayer Brown, but that's for a different time). Plus, one of the attorneys I used to work for and absolutely respect passionately hates Jones Day. He abhors working with or against their attorneys, and he's a pretty mild mannered and even-keeled dude. But if you bring up Jones Day he gets heated.

All right. This is getting stupid. Really? The attorney you "absolutely respect" makes sweeping generalizations about 2,400 attorneys in a firm? I don't even know what to say to that other than laugh at your choice of people you decide to respect.

I, for one, worked in a large Midwest office and enjoyed almost everyone I worked with.

[BearLaw]

Future JD associate / former summer associate here.

I am close friends with a GC for a corp. He said the nickname for Jones Day he always hears from associates that he has worked with from there is "Jones Day, Night and Weekend".

Because it is a funny play on words. Any big law firm that ends with the word "Day" invites such a pun. Let's be real.

A small committee determines your compensation based on your reviews / performance and no one else (no even your partners) know your compensation. From the various associates and partners I spoke with, you are either very happy with your compensation (above market) or you are very unhappy with your compensation (well below market). If you are happy about your compensation, you are doing something right (doing good work, sucking the right D, etc.). You appreciate the secret compensation structure (because you believe the system works, and no one builds resentment toward you) and you drink the Jones Day secret comp koolaid (because why not).

If you are unhappy, you talk shit about the opaque, blackbox compensation, complain that the firm is cheap, and leave. In a sense, the way JD shows you that you are unwanted is by continuing to pay you $160,000 until you get fed up and leave.

In other words, JD does its comp like a company, i.e., no one knows what each other makes, and the people who do good work / suck the right D gets to make more money. Nothing out of the ordinary from a real world perspective.

Wait, JD doesn't do any sort of lockstep raises at all? Not even a modified type of system?

I just find that pretty unusual, but definitely good to know

No, but I am sure they follow the market lockstep to some degree unless you completely blow at your job. Just because JD is blackbox, it doesn't mean they don't pay attention to the market. They know that lawyers follow market trends and they will jump ship if they aren't compensated to their satisfaction. There is a conspiracy theory that blackbox is just a way for the firm to underpay everyone and get away with it. But lawyers aren't stupid and neither is JD. They pay the right price for the right people to stay.

But as a matter of policy, they start out at $160,000 and the rest is in a black hole. JD also does not pay bonuses, and instead pays you the market bonus (or above market bonus) as a part of your salary throughout the next year. I like this for 3 reasons. 1) You don't get taxed at the bonus rate. 2) You don't get a lump-sum bonus that you can waste right away. 3) Good for the firm financially (which in a way is good for you) in that people don't get to take the bonus and peace out. You have to stay the entire next year to reap the benefits of your previous year's bonus. The firm wants you to stay long-term (and want uncommitted people out sooner, I guess?) and this is one of the way they show it.

What. The. Hell?

FYI, depending on when the bonus is paid at other firms, you likely save money on the tax, since the lump sum tax rate is well below the top marginal rate. Its a calculation but taxes will end up being the same at the end of the year, since, you know, taxable income is taxable income.

2. Da fak? its my money! I will blow it on what ever I damn well please, sir!

3. No, its really not. But if it makes you feel better thinking so, keep chugging that kool-aid.

Glad you love your firm, but dont use specious illogical arguments to try and prove how great it is.

[Anonymous User]

Anon about comp post.

The associate lateral market is actually robust at this point. Anyone who thinks JD can succeed by generally paying 3rd-5th years below market, think about how this would work. Why would someone in that position stay with the firm?

No one said that. I said the 3rd-5th years they pay below below market are people they want to push out. I know midlevels making way above market.

[Anonymous User]

What. The. Hell?

FYI, depending on when the bonus is paid at other firms, you likely save money on the tax, since the lump sum tax rate is well below the top marginal rate. Its a calculation but taxes will end up being the same at the end of the year, since, you know, taxable income is taxable income.

2. Da fak? its my money! I will blow it on what ever I damn well please, sir!

3. No, its really not. But if it makes you feel better thinking so, keep chugging that kool-aid.

Glad you love your firm, but dont use specious illogical arguments to try and prove how great it is.

I was not trying to prove how great it is.

I like this for 3 reasons.

I was just telling you why I liked it.

[BearLaw]

What. The. Hell?

FYI, depending on when the bonus is paid at other firms, you likely save money on the tax, since the lump sum tax rate is well below the top marginal rate. Its a calculation but taxes will end up being the same at the end of the year, since, you know, taxable income is taxable income.

2. Da fak? its my money! I will blow it on what ever I damn well please, sir!

3. No, its really not. But if it makes you feel better thinking so, keep chugging that kool-aid.

Glad you love your firm, but dont use specious illogical arguments to try and prove how great it is.

I was not trying to prove how great it is.

I like this for 3 reasons.

I was just telling you why I liked it.

Fair enough. For the record, they are still really bad reasons.

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone here speak to the NY office?

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone here speak to the NY office?

Yep. Fire away.

[Anonymous User]

Fair enough. For the record, they are still really bad reasons.

Hey, if I'm gonna get paid above market, I don't care how it gets into my bank account.

[Johann]

You guys realize how black box compensation works right? You pay 5-10% above market tops so that there are these rumors of people making above market. Then you pay 50% slightly below market and they think this is the norm and it's not entirely worth leaving over. Then you pay 40% a chunk below market and they get the clue that it's time to get the fuck out. All in all, almost everyone makes below market. If you had a good salary structure that was good for associates you would clearly advertise it to the public and then you'd give some whopping discretionary bonuses to your top performers. Everybody strives their ass off to be one of the 5-10% getting slightly above market compensation. The 50% right below market think they are almost right there as they keep hearing in their reviews and keep striving their ass off until they realize it's much more likely they become one of the bottom tier associates after the old bottom teir leaves. It's much more likely your relative compensation goes down then up (relative to class year comp). They make you wear suits everyday but that's cool I'm a lawyer I'm supposed to wear a suit! Bullshit. Your senior associate that gives you all his work is guaranteed to be the most striver fuck there is because of the firm structure. This place is a shithole sweatshop that doesn't even compensate you for your efforts like other firms do, on average.

[Anonymous User]

They make you wear suits everyday but that's cool I'm a lawyer I'm supposed to wear a suit! Bullshit.

I don't know about the rest of your post, but this is flat out wrong. I wore a suit during my 10 week summer associate stint exactly three times. And that's as a summer associate who wanted to get an offer and ultimately received an offer.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I hope this doesn't make the different conversations too confusing, but we had 2 active Jones Day threads going, so I've merged them.