NY GOES TO 180k! IT HAPPENED!!!! (CovingTTTon does a 180! Holder wept.) Forum

[trbrny]

op updated. i just linked to this thread where trbrny is doing a good job keeping track of this info.

Thanks!

[JenDarby]

I still don't understand how people say "deserve the same pay" but explain that the pay is much more in the same breath.

If you bill at the same rates and work the same hours, you deserve the same pay. If that pay happens to buy you a bigger house in TX than it would buy in Manhattan, that just sucks for the dudes in Manhattan.

Do they bill the same rates? When I worked at a consulting firm in OR and satellite offices from around the US were used, they were never paid the same rate as the NY offices.

[Byakuya769]

S&C won't be beating.

That mean they've matched via memo?

[dailygrind]

I still don't understand how people say "deserve the same pay" but explain that the pay is much more in the same breath.

If you bill at the same rates and work the same hours, you deserve the same pay. If that pay happens to buy you a bigger house in TX than it would buy in Manhattan, that just sucks for the dudes in Manhattan.

Who says they're the same rate?

But also this is totally a law specific thing. Every other industry shifts pay by COL

I think it's common to have the same rates across offices, but I admittedly don't know for sure. Promotes a one-firm culture (otherwise, if you had work you had to staff out of another office, you'd pretty much always push it to your, e.g. Cleveland office).

[PvblivsScipio]

Well the poll was way off. First to match was a botique in LA and the first biglaw firm was Milbank. Who woulda thunk?

[a corsair]

I still don't understand how people say "deserve the same pay" but explain that the pay is much more in the same breath.

If you bill at the same rates and work the same hours, you deserve the same pay. If that pay happens to buy you a bigger house in TX than it would buy in Manhattan, that just sucks for the dudes in Manhattan.

Who says they're the same rate?

But also this is totally a law specific thing. Every other industry shifts pay by COL

MBB definitely pays uniform across locations. You make the same salary in NY as you do in the Detroit office.

[TLSModBot]

I think we'll see some differences in non-NY raise spreading than what we had in 2007.

In January/February 2007, the initial raises were largely limited to NY - some big firms made it nationwide but usually these were firms that didn't have a huge presence in every major city anyway. Firms jumped to set a lower cap (but still gave raises!) to DC, SF/LA, and Chicago. Texas and Atlanta were a mix - some got the smaller non-NY raise and some got nothing. In the beginning of May 2007, we see a bold push by a couple firms to roll out 160K to other markets. California led the way, followed by DC, then by Chicago. In a week or so, 160K had come to all major markets.

As mentioned by others above, I think the non-NY markets contribute more money than they did in NY when corporate and litigation work were more centralized (NY is still the king in these parts, make no mistake). More importantly, however, is that big firms have spread substantially to these major non-NY cities (SF/LA/DC/Chi/Boston), so these towns aren't held in check by a few key tastemakers in the same way they were 9 years ago (lol just lol at Hogan and Covington holding DC pay hostage, or Latham/O'Melveny/Orrick being the gatekeepers to CA).

[NakedPowerOrgan]

I still don't understand how people say "deserve the same pay" but explain that the pay is much more in the same breath.

If you bill at the same rates and work the same hours, you deserve the same pay. If that pay happens to buy you a bigger house in TX than it would buy in Manhattan, that just sucks for the dudes in Manhattan.

TX biglaw bro is spending his paycheck on a bigger house and NYC biglaw bro is spending his paycheck on the "privilege" of living in Manhattan. A lot of people place a higher economic value on being able to live in NYC than the value of a large house. I would rather make $180k living in Manhattan (I don't) than make $180k living in South Dakota--COL adjustment or not.

[El Pollito]

I still don't understand how people say "deserve the same pay" but explain that the pay is much more in the same breath.

If you bill at the same rates and work the same hours, you deserve the same pay. If that pay happens to buy you a bigger house in TX than it would buy in Manhattan, that just sucks for the dudes in Manhattan.

the same pay isn't the same pay

[Desert Fox]

What're we thinking generally for DC? Cost of living here really isn't that far from NYC, and there are a lot of profitable groups based here (mostly based on regulatory and lit work). I'm seeing the major guys move to match before OCI, but happy to hear thoughts.

So in 2007, DC lagged behind NY. Hogan, Covington, and a couple other big DC players moved quickly to set DC salaries at 145K (previously were a range from 130-145), and a bunch followed. It looks like California and DC were the first markets to substantively fall and move up en masse to 160, but NY really was the initial epicenter.

I've been spending all morning combing through news in 2007 to piece together the timeline for 2007 raises - looks like in the first week there were 33 firms that announced raises of some sort, another 22 the week after that, and another 14 the week after that.

I think one other difference between 2007 and 2016 is that firms are currently much more uniform in compensation across location. When Milbank raised, they didn't raise by location - they raised across the board. Gonna suck to be the first firm to say 'no, our Charlotte associates are second class citizens. Even if you bill out at the same rate as NYC associates, you don't deserve the same pay. Sorry, losers.'

Do they actually bill out at the same rate? My firm has local rates which can be considerably lower.

[kcdc1]

I still don't understand how people say "deserve the same pay" but explain that the pay is much more in the same breath.

Because the monetary value of your work is approximately equal whether you live in NYC or e.g. Chicago, but you can buy more with that money if you live in Chicago.

[dailygrind]

I still don't understand how people say "deserve the same pay" but explain that the pay is much more in the same breath.

If you bill at the same rates and work the same hours, you deserve the same pay. If that pay happens to buy you a bigger house in TX than it would buy in Manhattan, that just sucks for the dudes in Manhattan.

the same pay isn't the same pay

Same billing rate, same hours, same pay. If there's different hours or different rates, I hear you.

[Desert Fox]

Is 180k NY even more than 160k in Texas or NC? Not even factoring in COL, just taxes?

[JenDarby]

I still don't understand how people say "deserve the same pay" but explain that the pay is much more in the same breath.

Because the monetary value of your work is approximately equal whether you live in NYC or e.g. Chicago, but you can buy more with that money if you live in Chicago.

It's not if your billing rates are lower, which at least some of the time (if not more) they are

[Anonymous User]

I still don't understand how people say "deserve the same pay" but explain that the pay is much more in the same breath.

If you bill at the same rates and work the same hours, you deserve the same pay. If that pay happens to buy you a bigger house in TX than it would buy in Manhattan, that just sucks for the dudes in Manhattan.

Who says they're the same rate?

But also this is totally a law specific thing. Every other industry shifts pay by COL

MBB definitely pays uniform across locations. You make the same salary in NY as you do in the Detroit office.

I feel like this makes more sense in consulting where you're only in whatever city you live in half the time.

[El Pollito]

I still don't understand how people say "deserve the same pay" but explain that the pay is much more in the same breath.

If you bill at the same rates and work the same hours, you deserve the same pay. If that pay happens to buy you a bigger house in TX than it would buy in Manhattan, that just sucks for the dudes in Manhattan.

the same pay isn't the same pay

Same billing rate, same hours, same pay. If there's different hours or different rates, I hear you.

you sure the billing rate is the same? bc it's typically not standardized across the US

[Desert Fox]

Unless the firm doesn't care which office you work, they absolutely should cover the COL difference.

But that means NYC should get more than 180k, not everyone else less.

[NakedPowerOrgan]

I still don't understand how people say "deserve the same pay" but explain that the pay is much more in the same breath.

If you bill at the same rates and work the same hours, you deserve the same pay. If that pay happens to buy you a bigger house in TX than it would buy in Manhattan, that just sucks for the dudes in Manhattan.

Who says they're the same rate?

But also this is totally a law specific thing. Every other industry shifts pay by COL

I think it's common to have the same rates across offices, but I admittedly don't know for sure. Promotes a one-firm culture (otherwise, if you had work you had to staff out of another office, you'd pretty much always push it to your, e.g. Cleveland office).

An easy way to find out would be to look at fee applications in chapter 11s. The hourly rates for bankruptcy, corporate, litigation, etc. attorneys working on chapter 11 cases are publicly filed.

I wouldn't be surprised if it deviates among offices for biglaw firms, especially firms that have offices in secondary markets. That being said, I'm at a biglaw firm and have staffed matters across multiple practice groups at the firm and across multiple major offices. I see a difference in how we bill out IP associates versus corporate associates, but I haven't noticed a difference between, e.g., NYC associates' and DC associates' billing rates.

[smaug]

Unless the firm doesn't care which office you work, they absolutely should cover the COL difference.

But that means NYC should get more than 180k, not everyone else less.

I agree

[JenDarby]

I worked on chapter 11s and prepared our fee apps and all non NY offices billed less than the NY offices.

[NakedPowerOrgan]

Is 180k NY even more than 160k in Texas or NC? Not even factoring in COL, just taxes?

According to some COL calculator I found with Google, $160k in Houston = $370k in Manhattan. Hah.

[Br3v]

Unless the firm doesn't care which office you work, they absolutely should cover the COL difference.

But that means NYC should get more than 180k, not everyone else less.

DF4PRES

[Anonymous User]

I worked on chapter 11s and prepared our fee apps and all non NY offices billed less than the NY offices.

counterpoint: my firm's associate rates are the same across the board. we have offices in nyc, california, texas, and DC.

[Desert Fox]

Is 180k NY even more than 160k in Texas or NC? Not even factoring in COL, just taxes?

According to some COL calculator I found with Google, $160k in Houston = $370k in Manhattan. Hah.

You gotta use chained weighted COL if you want to be accurate. Yea, it probably costs A LOT more to have the exact same lifestyle, but you make trade offs that cost less. Instead of having a 3000 sqft behemoth mcmansion, you just get a TTT apartment with 450 sqft.

Plus a lot of stuff, like federal taxes and student loans cost exactly the same. Those linear COL are pretty terrible for upper middle class incomes.

[NakedPowerOrgan]

Unless the firm doesn't care which office you work, they absolutely should cover the COL difference.

But that means NYC should get more than 180k, not everyone else less.

But living in Manhattan is a priceless life experience. If anything, that should be factored into the compensation and NYC associates should be getting paid less than associates forced to work in non-NYC offices.