NY GOES TO 180k! IT HAPPENED!!!! (CovingTTTon does a 180! Holder wept.) Forum

[Actus Reus]

Milbank has matched. We just got the memo.

Across the board or just in NYC?

The memo doesn't specify, but they sent the memo to all associates in all offices (including, from what I can see, our international offices), so I'd say it's across the board.

July 1 confirmed. It's on ATL

[kcdc1]

Actually yes, the New York offices are often considerably more profitable than the others.

I'm not familiar with biglaw finances, but my understanding was that certain practices (e.g., M&A) concentrated in NYC are more profitable, but that practices that are equally available in NYC / DC / SF / LA / Chi will tend to be roughly equally profitable in each major market. For example, say lit in DC is just as profitable as lit in NYC. If that's the case, why would a lit associate in NYC be paid more than a lit associate in DC?

[frasier]

Actually yes, the New York offices are often considerably more profitable than the others.

I'm not familiar with biglaw finances, but my understanding was that certain practices (e.g., M&A) concentrated in NYC are more profitable, but that practices that are equally available in NYC / DC / SF / LA / Chi will tend to be roughly equally profitable in each major market. For example, say lit in DC is just as profitable as lit in NYC. If that's the case, why would a lit associate in NYC be paid more than a lit associate in DC?

Cost of living?

[smaug]

Lit in DC generally is not as profitable as lit in NY, though. Lit is most profitable in NY. (Unless you're pointing to small appellate/SCOTUS practices, which duh, I am sure are amazingly profitable. Not everyone's bread and butter though.)

[Anonymous User]

Jones Day is such a bullshit firm.

Yeah the kool-aid drinking is strong. but there are upsides. Less leverage, you don't get the Latham-esque boom/bust cycles of bullish hiring fired by mass layoffs, etc.

But really people tend to go there because of a specific culture. Hard to define (tends to be very political, especially at certain offices), but you either like it or really don't. Pretty sure several SAs in my class jumped ship during 3L oci because they really didn't like the culture.

Yea, I mean, if you are happy there, that's awesome and good for you and other lawyers that are. I just think that *that* particular culture is bullshit/not for me.

Well who knows if I'll be happy as an actual associate. But if you're not at least somewhat right-leaning and/or very religious, it would be a weird place to work, at least at my office, and I mean to a much greater and more obvious degree than any other firm I have worked at or interviewed with.

[Anonymous User]

Milbank has matched. We just got the memo.

Across the board or just in NYC?

It's across the board, firm-wide.

[Anonymous User]

Milbank matched

[Anonymous User]

Lit in DC generally is not as profitable as lit in NY, though. Lit is most profitable in NY. (Unless you're pointing to small appellate/SCOTUS practices, which duh, I am sure are amazingly profitable. Not everyone's bread and butter though.)

Not above poster, but I include within lit internal investigations and SEC/DOJ investigations which are massively profitable - basically giant document reviews where there is no court that has an incentive to rein in discovery requests. Thus stuff is massively profitable and concentrated in DC although NY definitely does a ton of it too.

[kcdc1]

Lit in DC generally is not as profitable as lit in NY, though. Lit is most profitable in NY. (Unless you're pointing to small appellate/SCOTUS practices, which duh, I am sure are amazingly profitable. Not everyone's bread and butter though.)

Would be curious to see #'s. Not saying you're wrong -- just would be interested to get more info.

[Anonymous User]

If Jones Day doesn't pay midlevels market, how do they have any?

Different anon. My impression as an SA was that they have some midlevels working 2400+ for above market and some working <2000 for below market.

Because lawyers are lemmings who hate change.

[TLSModBot]

What're we thinking generally for DC? Cost of living here really isn't that far from NYC, and there are a lot of profitable groups based here (mostly based on regulatory and lit work). I'm seeing the major guys move to match before OCI, but happy to hear thoughts.

So in 2007, DC lagged behind NY. Hogan, Covington, and a couple other big DC players moved quickly to set DC salaries at 145K (previously were a range from 130-145), and a bunch followed. It looks like California and DC were the first markets to substantively fall and move up en masse to 160, but NY really was the initial epicenter.

I've been spending all morning combing through news in 2007 to piece together the timeline for 2007 raises - looks like in the first week there were 33 firms that announced raises of some sort, another 22 the week after that, and another 14 the week after that.

[Anonymous User]

Working in a non NY office of a NY firm has its perks. Milbank DC and LA get 180k too.

[Anonymous User]

A friend who SA'd at a non major city Latham office said last summer that they made a really big deal about how all lawyers get the same comp firm wide because they are a part of Latham, not just that individual office. It's Latham, so they may walk it back, but they had to have some idea this may happen.

Latham and Skadden will probably match firm wide because the have to. Kirkland will because they have too much pride.

I don't know if a few firms doing that will be enough to push everyone else higher though. Kirkland, Skadden, and Latham have the advantage of being Kirkland, Skadden, and Latham.

I have the same thoughts re Texas.

Yea, it was a Texas office. Texas is kind of the most interesting for me. If I had to take a guess, if the national firms raise comp in Houston, at least the big ones like VE will follow.

I know their Houston office is small, but Quinn seems likely to raise comp there. It could be at least a little bit of a push toward the rest of Texas raising.

STB will also almost surely match in Texas (and its other offices) once it raises NY. STB + Latham + Skadden + Kirkland all matching will be pressure for VE and BB to match at the very least.

Also, Houston is definitely a major legal market (after NY/DC/LA/Chicago). They just also happen to effectively make way more because of the low cost of living and no state income tax (that extra $20K for first years would mean $14.4K after federal taxes which is the equivalent of around $3.3K in NYC).

[Anonymous User]

When does the hive-mind predict W&C will raise its compensation to account for this?

[Actus Reus]

A friend who SA'd at a non major city Latham office said last summer that they made a really big deal about how all lawyers get the same comp firm wide because they are a part of Latham, not just that individual office. It's Latham, so they may walk it back, but they had to have some idea this may happen.

Latham and Skadden will probably match firm wide because the have to. Kirkland will because they have too much pride.

I don't know if a few firms doing that will be enough to push everyone else higher though. Kirkland, Skadden, and Latham have the advantage of being Kirkland, Skadden, and Latham.

I have the same thoughts re Texas.

Yea, it was a Texas office. Texas is kind of the most interesting for me. If I had to take a guess, if the national firms raise comp in Houston, at least the big ones like VE will follow.

I know their Houston office is small, but Quinn seems likely to raise comp there. It could be at least a little bit of a push toward the rest of Texas raising.

STB will also almost surely match in Texas (and its other offices) once it raises NY. STB + Latham + Skadden + Kirkland all matching will be pressure for VE and BB to match at the very least.

Also, Houston is definitely a major legal market (after NY/DC/LA/Chicago). They just also happen to effectively make way more because of the low cost of living and no state income tax (that extra $20K for first years would mean $14.4K after federal taxes which is the equivalent of around $3.3K in NYC).

Outed as being from Houston bc everyone knows it isn't a major legal market

[Anonymous User]

What're we thinking generally for DC? Cost of living here really isn't that far from NYC, and there are a lot of profitable groups based here (mostly based on regulatory and lit work). I'm seeing the major guys move to match before OCI, but happy to hear thoughts.

So in 2007, DC lagged behind NY. Hogan, Covington, and a couple other big DC players moved quickly to set DC salaries at 145K (previously were a range from 130-145), and a bunch followed. It looks like California and DC were the first markets to substantively fall and move up en masse to 160, but NY really was the initial epicenter.

I've been spending all morning combing through news in 2007 to piece together the timeline for 2007 raises - looks like in the first week there were 33 firms that announced raises of some sort, another 22 the week after that, and another 14 the week after that.

I think one other difference between 2007 and 2016 is that firms are currently much more uniform in compensation across location. When Milbank raised, they didn't raise by location - they raised across the board. Gonna suck to be the first firm to say 'no, our Charlotte associates are second class citizens. Even if you bill out at the same rate as NYC associates, you don't deserve the same pay. Sorry, losers.'

[El Pollito]

who be matchin?

do you think the 180K salary figure was a nod to these esteemed fora?

[smaug]

who be matchin?

do you think the 180K salary figure was a nod to these esteemed fora?

I think it's a bit of a fuck you to us and ATL

[jkpolk]

I am this thread's Toby. Let me Toby a little.

Alternatively, I really do think a couple of firms could push past 180 as a fuck you to everyone. Waiting on that.

NYC TO 182.5K!!!

[NakedPowerOrgan]

A friend who SA'd at a non major city Latham office said last summer that they made a really big deal about how all lawyers get the same comp firm wide because they are a part of Latham, not just that individual office. It's Latham, so they may walk it back, but they had to have some idea this may happen.

Latham and Skadden will probably match firm wide because the have to. Kirkland will because they have too much pride.

I don't know if a few firms doing that will be enough to push everyone else higher though. Kirkland, Skadden, and Latham have the advantage of being Kirkland, Skadden, and Latham.

I have the same thoughts re Texas.

Yea, it was a Texas office. Texas is kind of the most interesting for me. If I had to take a guess, if the national firms raise comp in Houston, at least the big ones like VE will follow.

I know their Houston office is small, but Quinn seems likely to raise comp there. It could be at least a little bit of a push toward the rest of Texas raising.

STB will also almost surely match in Texas (and its other offices) once it raises NY. STB + Latham + Skadden + Kirkland all matching will be pressure for VE and BB to match at the very least.

Also, Houston is definitely a major legal market (after NY/DC/LA/Chicago). They just also happen to effectively make way more because of the low cost of living and no state income tax (that extra $20K for first years would mean $14.4K after federal taxes which is the equivalent of around $3.3K in NYC).

Outed as being from Houston bc everyone knows it isn't a major legal market

"Major legal market" distinction is as silly as, e.g., Vault 20 or T10 law school.

[smaug]

I still don't understand how people say "deserve the same pay" but explain that the pay is much more in the same breath.

[soj]

.

[dailygrind]

I still don't understand how people say "deserve the same pay" but explain that the pay is much more in the same breath.

If you bill at the same rates and work the same hours, you deserve the same pay. If that pay happens to buy you a bigger house in TX than it would buy in Manhattan, that just sucks for the dudes in Manhattan.

[Anonymous User]

S&C won't be beating.

[smaug]

I still don't understand how people say "deserve the same pay" but explain that the pay is much more in the same breath.

If you bill at the same rates and work the same hours, you deserve the same pay. If that pay happens to buy you a bigger house in TX than it would buy in Manhattan, that just sucks for the dudes in Manhattan.

Who says they're the same rate?

But also this is totally a law specific thing. Every other industry shifts pay by COL