Milbank/Davis Polk/Cravath Scale: NYC to 215-415k Forum

[Anonymous User]

White & Case continuing to cheap out is very par for the course.

Given their awkward position in the market, if they don't pay market comp, their associates will keep moving to dpw, stb, skadden, etc.

Just curious, why is their position awkward?

[mmo70]

S&C waived last year's summer advance, effectively giving out 29k for doing no work to 2020 summer associates. Though I was pretty upset at S&C at first, I can't complain about this outcome. S&C has not matched anybody to this date, which is super weird, but to say the firm is struggling is a bit of a stretch.

S&C waived last year's summer advance, effectively giving out 29k for doing no work to 2020 summer associates. Though I was pretty upset at S&C at first, I can't complain about this outcome. S&C has not matched anybody to this date, which is super weird, but to say the firm is struggling is a bit of a stretch.

What do you mean they waived the summer advance? Do you not have to pay back the 10k advance if you took it?

[Anonymous User]

Why do most partners have outright contempt for these raises?

[Anonymous User]

S&C waived last year's summer advance, effectively giving out 29k for doing no work to 2020 summer associates. Though I was pretty upset at S&C at first, I can't complain about this outcome. S&C has not matched anybody to this date, which is super weird, but to say the firm is struggling is a bit of a stretch.

and Kirkland paid $36K for showing up to a few Zoom meetings over the course of two weeks. S&C is absolutely not financially struggling, but you can get paid more and work less at [insert random V20], and are the exit opps really all that different?

[Anonymous User]

Why do most partners have outright contempt for these raises?

Because the partners are the ones actually brining in business to the firm, and have earned their place atop the pyramid. Associates are mostly there just there to churn hours with no actual decision-making involved, and even the terrible ones are getting raises. Very reasonable for a partner to look at associates and see a lot of overpaid mediocrity.

[Anonymous User]

Why do most partners have outright contempt for these raises?

Because the partners are the ones actually brining in business to the firm, and have earned their place atop the pyramid. Associates are mostly there just there to churn hours with no actual decision-making involved, and even the terrible ones are getting raises. Very reasonable for a partner to look at associates and see a lot of overpaid mediocrity.

lmfao at this terrible take from presumably a junior associate or a great troll. Have you had any experience watching the partners “bring in business?” Most of it is based on pre-existing relationships and friendly phone calls. It’s all networked. Which is fine, we need that. But the “business” is only “brought in” when the work starts on it and the bills start going out. The partners are entirely dependent on the associates and junior partners to operate these cases and in turn create the actual bills of the “business.” It’s a symbiotic relationship. Get your head out of your ass.

[Anonymous User]

Why do most partners have outright contempt for these raises?

Because the partners are the ones actually brining in business to the firm, and have earned their place atop the pyramid. Associates are mostly there just there to churn hours with no actual decision-making involved, and even the terrible ones are getting raises. Very reasonable for a partner to look at associates and see a lot of overpaid mediocrity.

lmfao at this terrible take from presumably a junior associate or a great troll. Have you had any experience watching the partners “bring in business?” Most of it is based on pre-existing relationships and friendly phone calls. It’s all networked. Which is fine, we need that. But the “business” is only “brought in” when the work starts on it and the bills start going out. The partners are entirely dependent on the associates and junior partners to operate these cases and in turn create the actual bills of the “business.” It’s a symbiotic relationship. Get your head out of your ass.

Adding to this, I'll never forget some of the *gem* advice credited to boomers:

• Rainmaker Partner - "My business development team always reminds me to make at least three [networking] calls a week"

• GC at a F100 - "I once gave our most important employment law case to an alumni I met at a gas station"

• Partner on the executive board - "Everyone, absolutely everyone, should be on Linkedin"

Behold the wisdom of the great and powerful equity partners! What luck the associates have for their delphic rain dances!

[Lesion of Doom]

Partners sacrificed the way associates do and need to see associates suffer similarly in order to validate the partners' life choices. They also enjoy dispensing patronage and gatekeeping at the firm's highest levels, so the idea that associates have independent value that they can leverage is anathema to them.

To many partners, associates haven't "earned" the right to participate in a free employment market. If the lockstep system dissolved, each associate would be able to negotiate their own salary and properly exploit the current shortage. Partners can gripe all they like, but careful what you wish for.

[Anonymous User]

Partners sacrificed the way associates do and need to see associates suffer similarly in order to validate the partners' life choices. They also enjoy dispensing patronage and gatekeeping at the firm's highest levels, so the idea that associates have independent value that they can leverage is anathema to them.

To many partners, associates haven't "earned" the right to participate in a free employment market. If the lockstep system dissolved, each associate would be able to negotiate their own salary and properly exploit the current shortage. Partners can gripe all they like, but careful what you wish for.

What kind of firms do y'all work at where the partners are like this? The 8 or 9 partners that I have done 95%+ of my work for across two firms as a now seventh year associate are smart, hardworking people who are genuinely happy and congratulative when associates are given bonuses/raises.

If the partners are outwardly expressing displeasure towards you as an associate after a salary increase, either find a new firm or at the very least, find new partners to work for.

[Anonymous User]

How long did Milbank take to match DPW last time around?

[Anonymous User]

Eh I don't think it's that complicated. Associate salary essentially comes from their pockets. Plus when they follow the market, they feel a bit forced and reluctant. Which is why we should be grateful to the Milbanks for starting this, without this movement partners would be content to pay 160.

[Anonymous User]

Why do most partners have outright contempt for these raises?

Because the partners are the ones actually brining in business to the firm, and have earned their place atop the pyramid. Associates are mostly there just there to churn hours with no actual decision-making involved, and even the terrible ones are getting raises. Very reasonable for a partner to look at associates and see a lot of overpaid mediocrity.

lmfao at this terrible take from presumably a junior associate or a great troll. Have you had any experience watching the partners “bring in business?” Most of it is based on pre-existing relationships and friendly phone calls. It’s all networked. Which is fine, we need that. But the “business” is only “brought in” when the work starts on it and the bills start going out. The partners are entirely dependent on the associates and junior partners to operate these cases and in turn create the actual bills of the “business.” It’s a symbiotic relationship. Get your head out of your ass.

Adding to this, I'll never forget some of the *gem* advice credited to boomers:

• Rainmaker Partner - "My business development team always reminds me to make at least three [networking] calls a week"

• GC at a F100 - "I once gave our most important employment law case to an alumni I met at a gas station"

• Partner on the executive board - "Everyone, absolutely everyone, should be on Linkedin"

Behold the wisdom of the great and powerful equity partners! What luck the associates have for their delphic rain dances!

Does it matter whether the partners actually deserve the credit for rainmaking or not? Regardless of whether there's any merit involved, as an associate I can't just leave and take the clients with me. If I could I would be partner somewhere else. Whether due to luck, merit, or a pretty face, the partners hold the keys to the gravy train. And because they hold the keys, they feel entitled to the spoils. Thus, they will fight back on any raise unless they have to pay it.

I do want to add one caveat here. I'm in lit, and I happen to think that most (not all) partners got to where they are do to some degree of merit. It's often abundantly clear which senior associate will make partner not because they have connections or can schmooze better than the rest, but rather because the have a talent for various litigation tasks. Now, maybe they got there simply by working long hours, and maybe some of the more senior partners have that talent only by virtue of being around for a long time, but regardless they do bring something to the table that associates do not (and clients see that). From what I gather it's often an entirely different story for corporate law.

Anyway, TL;DR some (not all) lit partners may be more justified in thinking the clients pay the bills because of the partners, not the associates. But screw the bootlickers who think this is universal.

[Anonymous User]

There are so many cuck associates in this thread

[BrowsingTLS]

Millionbank should match Cravath, while boosting junior salaries even by a couple thousand. Cement its status as Milbank, the Compensation King.

[Anonymous User]

I hear OMM matched Cravath.

[Anonymous User]

Why hasn’t someone created some spoof website like Above The Iaw or Abowe The Law, posted a fake story on there about DPW re-raising, and emailed it around to every V100 in the hopes that someone would match and start a chain reaction that wouldn’t be undone? Not “1st years to 300” crazy but another 15-20k across the board.

[Anonymous User]

Why do most partners have outright contempt for these raises?

Because the partners are the ones actually brining in business to the firm, and have earned their place atop the pyramid. Associates are mostly there just there to churn hours with no actual decision-making involved, and even the terrible ones are getting raises. Very reasonable for a partner to look at associates and see a lot of overpaid mediocrity.

Many partners are themselves dead weight, which is why you see firms doing things like (1) getting rid of lockstep for partners and (2) instituting mandatory retirement ages.

[Anonymous User]

Why hasn’t someone created some spoof website like Above The Iaw or Abowe The Law, posted a fake story on there about DPW re-raising, and emailed it around to every V100 in the hopes that someone would match and start a chain reaction that wouldn’t be undone? Not “1st years to 300” crazy but another 15-20k across the board.

Do it.

[Anonymous User]

Kaplan Hecker raises: https://abovethelaw.com/2022/03/kaplan- ... aise-2022/

Anyone know whether they're traditionally above-market or is it the Kaplan Scale now? (Either way--we should just all call it the Kaplan Scale to shame the V10.)

[Anonymous User]

Millionbank should match Cravath, while boosting junior salaries even by a couple thousand. Cement its status as Milbank, the Compensation King.

Right now the total gross comp (salary plus end year bonus) as percentage increase over the previous class is:

2nd Year: 8.5%*
3rd Year: 20.6%*
4th Year: 20.3%*
5th year: 17.6%
6th year: 9.2%
7th year: 8.4%
8th year: 2.9%

This incentives associates to stay through the end of years 3-5. The incentive for years 6+ shifts to the chance at partnership, or at least counsel.

If classes 1-3 got a nominal $5k bump each, the percentage increases for classes 2-4* become 8.3%, 20.2%, and 18.4%. If 2021 got an extra $5k, 2020 $10k, and 2019 $15k, the y/o increase for classes 2-4* becomes 10.4%, 21.7%, and 14.7% respectively.

What's my point? While there may be some incentive to keep on fighting for "comp leader" status, there is a competing concern about reducing the incentive to stay from year 3 to year 4. It's a minor shift in the extra $5k for each junior class universe, so that extra tiny bit of cash makes sense. The shift is far greater if the amount extra to the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd year classes increases. Any significant raise for the juniors effectively requires additional comp for midlevels.

Not to mention that firms have far more juniors than midlevels/seniors, so it costs a decent chunk of change to pay increases to the junior classes.

Also, my guess is that Milbank is more focused on being first, rather than being the comp leader. They haven't re-raised in the previous comp/bonus wars after they made the first move but were topped.

But hey, I'm a junior and I would absolutely welcome those nominal $5k raises

[Anonymous User]

Shearman matched cravath scale.

Retroactive to 1 Jan.

[Anonymous User]

White & Case continuing to cheap out is very par for the course.

Given their awkward position in the market, if they don't pay market comp, their associates will keep moving to dpw, stb, skadden, etc.

Just curious, why is their position awkward?

Maybe because they are situated somewhere between the DPW/CSM types and the Fried Frank/Schulte Roth types? Not sure what that has to do with anything tho.

[Anonymous User]

Orrick just matched the Cravath scale.

[Anonymous User]

Orrick just matched $415K scale (retro to Jan. 1)

[Anonymous User]

Covington full match, retroactive to Jan 1

suck on that Arnold & Poorters and CovingTTTon haters