Milbank/Davis Polk/Cravath Scale: NYC to 215-415k Forum

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland match of cravath

And the Kirkland true-up will be paid on 3/15. Good news for someone about to put in my notice.

Glad someone called Kirkland out for its shady feb 1 retro date for NSPs.

[Anonymous User]

Boston is absolutely not in a tier with Atlanta. Boston has like Ropes, Goodwin, Cooley, etc. Pretty sure even like Skadden, Latham, KE, Cooley, Wilmer and some others all have offices in Boston.

Market paying firms that have ATL offices pay market there. The number of market paying firms is irrelevant to the question of "will firms in x raise". Both Boston and Atlanta do not belong together with the non market regions.

This is such a bad comparison. ATL has two firms that pay market, and there aren't many market paying firms in the city (maybe 10 max).

Boston is on the same "tier" as Chicago/LA when it comes to salary discussions. If those cities move, Boston will move.

Also, a list of market paying firms in Boston:

HQ'd in Boston - Ropes, Goodwin, Wilmer, Choate, Fish & Richardson, Mintz (maybe market), Foley Hoag (maybe market), Goulston (maybe market)

Others - Skadden, Latham, Kirkland, Sidley, Weil, Quinn, White & Case, Cooley, MoFo, Hogan Lovells, Proskauer, Orrick, DLA, Morgan Lewis, Wilson Sonsini, Allen & Overy, Dechert, McDermott, Troutman Pepper (maybe market), Gunderson

And this is excluding some other firms that may pay market (Brown Rudnick, Holland & Knight)

That's a lot of law firms for a city with like 700,000 people.

This is all completely irrelevant, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Yes, Boston is a bigger market than Atlanta, just like NY is bigger than either. But people in this thread are not asking about firms that have 30 attorneys. They are asking about biglaw. And the big firms that have Atlanta offices pay NY scale. This wasn't always the case, until fairly recently biglaw Atlanta paid below market.

I think it's relevant because people ask what's going to happen in Boston every time there's a raise. When there are that many firms in a market that pay market salary/bonus, there is never a worry whether the market will match.

I don't know if firms paying market in ATL will follow suit this time around. I think that's the differentiator between Boston and ATL. No one doubts whether Ropes will match and if Ropes matches, Wilmer and Goodwin will match.

That top end of the scale is really high. I think A&B and K&S will match because they have to in order to get the best talent, but I don't know if Troutman or Kilpatrick will (they already had a lot of compression at the senior level prior to the 2021 raise (for Troutman)). There are firms in ATL that haven't followed the market before, and with this latest raise, i think they'll be perfectly content not trying to match this time around as well (and the gap will grow).

Also, what do you mean by "firms with 30 attorneys"? None of the firms I mentioned above has 30 attorneys. The offices may, but those are international firms that pay market in the entire country.

Troutman has offices in both Boston and Atlanta, on the same pay scale. abovethelaw.com/2021/08/troutman-pepper-raises/

By that logic, Richmond and Charlotte are also on the same "tier" as Boston. I get what you're saying about a firm choosing to pay its associates on the same scale in all major cities (McGuireWoods, Holland & Knight, DLA and Foley & Lardner also moved to that), but I view it as the total number or percentage of market-paying positions out of all "biglaw" jobs (including non-market). Atlanta is probably closer to Charlotte than Boston. Also, if we use your logic, since DLA is in many markets and pays market salary, all markets are the same.

You're the one who picked Troutman (or whoever I was responding to). "I don't know if Troutman" will match in Atlanta. There's your answer, Troutman will match in Atlanta if they match in Boston.

I never used the term tier. The question is which markets pay Cravath. Boston does. Atlanta does. Believe that Charlotte does as well so no argument there. Seattle for eg does not.

[Anonymous User]

Market paying firms that have ATL offices pay market there. The number of market paying firms is irrelevant to the question of "will firms in x raise". Both Boston and Atlanta do not belong together with the non market regions.

This is such a bad comparison. ATL has two firms that pay market, and there aren't many market paying firms in the city (maybe 10 max).

Boston is on the same "tier" as Chicago/LA when it comes to salary discussions. If those cities move, Boston will move.

Also, a list of market paying firms in Boston:

HQ'd in Boston - Ropes, Goodwin, Wilmer, Choate, Fish & Richardson, Mintz (maybe market), Foley Hoag (maybe market), Goulston (maybe market)

Others - Skadden, Latham, Kirkland, Sidley, Weil, Quinn, White & Case, Cooley, MoFo, Hogan Lovells, Proskauer, Orrick, DLA, Morgan Lewis, Wilson Sonsini, Allen & Overy, Dechert, McDermott, Troutman Pepper (maybe market), Gunderson

And this is excluding some other firms that may pay market (Brown Rudnick, Holland & Knight)

That's a lot of law firms for a city with like 700,000 people.

This is all completely irrelevant, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Yes, Boston is a bigger market than Atlanta, just like NY is bigger than either. But people in this thread are not asking about firms that have 30 attorneys. They are asking about biglaw. And the big firms that have Atlanta offices pay NY scale. This wasn't always the case, until fairly recently biglaw Atlanta paid below market.

I think it's relevant because people ask what's going to happen in Boston every time there's a raise. When there are that many firms in a market that pay market salary/bonus, there is never a worry whether the market will match.

I don't know if firms paying market in ATL will follow suit this time around. I think that's the differentiator between Boston and ATL. No one doubts whether Ropes will match and if Ropes matches, Wilmer and Goodwin will match.

That top end of the scale is really high. I think A&B and K&S will match because they have to in order to get the best talent, but I don't know if Troutman or Kilpatrick will (they already had a lot of compression at the senior level prior to the 2021 raise (for Troutman)). There are firms in ATL that haven't followed the market before, and with this latest raise, i think they'll be perfectly content not trying to match this time around as well (and the gap will grow).

Also, what do you mean by "firms with 30 attorneys"? None of the firms I mentioned above has 30 attorneys. The offices may, but those are international firms that pay market in the entire country.

Troutman has offices in both Boston and Atlanta, on the same pay scale. abovethelaw.com/2021/08/troutman-pepper-raises/

By that logic, Richmond and Charlotte are also on the same "tier" as Boston. I get what you're saying about a firm choosing to pay its associates on the same scale in all major cities (McGuireWoods, Holland & Knight, DLA and Foley & Lardner also moved to that), but I view it as the total number or percentage of market-paying positions out of all "biglaw" jobs (including non-market). Atlanta is probably closer to Charlotte than Boston. Also, if we use your logic, since DLA is in many markets and pays market salary, all markets are the same.

You're the one who picked Troutman (or whoever I was responding to). "I don't know if Troutman" will match in Atlanta. There's your answer, Troutman will match in Atlanta if they match in Boston.

I never used the term tier. The question is which markets pay Cravath. Boston does. Atlanta does. Believe that Charlotte does as well so no argument there. Seattle for eg does not.

We can agree to disagree. Yes, some firms pay market in Charlotte (Winston and Cadwalader). But the Charlotte firms do not. No point arguing this in this thread anyway since we are both probably at firms that have yet to match Cravath

[ksm6969]

i don't want to start a new thread and be grilled for this but can someone recommend books that can teach this undiagnosed autist how to make friends and generally be likable? everyone i've ever met has thought i was awkward. not sure how i'm going to survive big law.

Just make sure to talk about NFTs, crypto, and web3 with everyone you meet at every opportunity. I do it and people love me.

[Anonymous User]

I'm at a firm HQ in ATL. We have yet to match but eventually we will.

[Anonymous User]

Random thought, but looking forward to seeing Cravath's profits this year. Financials must have gone through the roof to justify them finally one-upping DPW/Milbank. They seemed ok with sitting back these past couple of years.

[Anonymous User]

Random thought, but looking forward to seeing Cravath's profits this year. Financials must have gone through the roof to justify them finally one-upping DPW/Milbank. They seemed ok with sitting back these past couple of years.

It’s an absolute bloodbath in the 5th/6th/7th year range, tbh. The departures are overwhelming. I’m not surprised by the desperation to keep some talent at that level by throwing out ridiculous money. As someone in those years actively interviewing to leave, I have to admit that the massive round of raises gives me a bit of pause. (Except f*** biglaw.)

[Anonymous User]

i don't want to start a new thread and be grilled for this but can someone recommend books that can teach this undiagnosed autist how to make friends and generally be likable? everyone i've ever met has thought i was awkward. not sure how i'm going to survive big law.

Just make sure to talk about NFTs, crypto, and web3 with everyone you meet at every opportunity. I do it and people love me.

I think this be snark, but, crypto cringe has reached the point where seriousness or lack thereof is impossible to discern

[loira]

I'm at a firm HQ in ATL. We have yet to match but eventually we will.

What makes you think this way?

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland match of cravath

And the Kirkland true-up will be paid on 3/15. Good news for someone about to put in my notice.

Glad someone called Kirkland out for its shady feb 1 retro date for NSPs.

Cringe (ATL is reporting on it: https://abovethelaw.com/2022/03/kirkland-re-raises-22/)

This, mixed with the garbage multipliers this year sounds like the death of K&E's "market leading" comp. I guess the new rebranding comes at a cost.

[Anonymous User]

Ropes matched

[Anonymous User]

Random thought, but looking forward to seeing Cravath's profits this year. Financials must have gone through the roof to justify them finally one-upping DPW/Milbank. They seemed ok with sitting back these past couple of years.

It’s an absolute bloodbath in the 5th/6th/7th year range, tbh. The departures are overwhelming. I’m not surprised by the desperation to keep some talent at that level by throwing out ridiculous money. As someone in those years actively interviewing to leave, I have to admit that the massive round of raises gives me a bit of pause. (Except f*** biglaw.)

Yep. I'm a 6th year currently on my way out the door to an in-house job that (with the latest raises plus current market bonuses) pays about half as much. Yesterday a junior partner asked if it would have changed my mind if I knew these raises were coming when I put in my notice. Nah.

Either I quit now when I'm 80% burned out or I quit in 3 years when I'm 100% burned out and have been killing myself on a near-impossible quest to make partner. No raise will change how happy I am about the decision I'm making.

[Anonymous User]

Stb match

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland match of cravath

And the Kirkland true-up will be paid on 3/15. Good news for someone about to put in my notice.

Glad someone called Kirkland out for its shady feb 1 retro date for NSPs.

Cringe (ATL is reporting on it: https://abovethelaw.com/2022/03/kirkland-re-raises-22/)

This, mixed with the garbage multipliers this year sounds like the death of K&E's "market leading" comp. I guess the new rebranding comes at a cost.

NSPs get hammered when it comes to comp, not surprised. As a first year NSP (7th year) you will make significantly less than you made as a 6th year. You pay non-resident income tax, unsubsidized health insurance, and other tax obligations that you don't think about (like having to pay the employer portion of social security). I haven't done the exact math, but my take home first year NSP (after I subtracted what I needed for taxes) was significantly lower than it was the year before (might be similar to what I made as a 5th year, but not sure).

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland match of cravath

And the Kirkland true-up will be paid on 3/15. Good news for someone about to put in my notice.

Glad someone called Kirkland out for its shady feb 1 retro date for NSPs.

Cringe (ATL is reporting on it: https://abovethelaw.com/2022/03/kirkland-re-raises-22/)

This, mixed with the garbage multipliers this year sounds like the death of K&E's "market leading" comp. I guess the new rebranding comes at a cost.

NSPs get hammered when it comes to comp, not surprised. As a first year NSP (7th year) you will make significantly less than you made as a 6th year. You pay non-resident income tax, unsubsidized health insurance, and other tax obligations that you don't think about (like having to pay the employer portion of social security). I haven't done the exact math, but my take home first year NSP (after I subtracted what I needed for taxes) was significantly lower than it was the year before (might be similar to what I made as a 5th year, but not sure).

What about your bonus tho? I hear that’s where the difference is really made up.

[Anonymous User]

STB matched Cravath

[Anonymous User]

What is happening with DC firms? Covington? A&P?

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland match of cravath

And the Kirkland true-up will be paid on 3/15. Good news for someone about to put in my notice.

Glad someone called Kirkland out for its shady feb 1 retro date for NSPs.

Cringe (ATL is reporting on it: https://abovethelaw.com/2022/03/kirkland-re-raises-22/)

This, mixed with the garbage multipliers this year sounds like the death of K&E's "market leading" comp. I guess the new rebranding comes at a cost.

NSPs get hammered when it comes to comp, not surprised. As a first year NSP (7th year) you will make significantly less than you made as a 6th year. You pay non-resident income tax, unsubsidized health insurance, and other tax obligations that you don't think about (like having to pay the employer portion of social security). I haven't done the exact math, but my take home first year NSP (after I subtracted what I needed for taxes) was significantly lower than it was the year before (might be similar to what I made as a 5th year, but not sure).

What about your bonus tho? I hear that’s where the difference is really made up.

Not sure if this is a joke given recent bonus news, but no. Difference is not made up in bonus (even with the multiples).

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland match of cravath

And the Kirkland true-up will be paid on 3/15. Good news for someone about to put in my notice.

Glad someone called Kirkland out for its shady feb 1 retro date for NSPs.

Cringe (ATL is reporting on it: https://abovethelaw.com/2022/03/kirkland-re-raises-22/)

This, mixed with the garbage multipliers this year sounds like the death of K&E's "market leading" comp. I guess the new rebranding comes at a cost.

NSPs get hammered when it comes to comp, not surprised. As a first year NSP (7th year) you will make significantly less than you made as a 6th year. You pay non-resident income tax, unsubsidized health insurance, and other tax obligations that you don't think about (like having to pay the employer portion of social security). I haven't done the exact math, but my take home first year NSP (after I subtracted what I needed for taxes) was significantly lower than it was the year before (might be similar to what I made as a 5th year, but not sure).

What about your bonus tho? I hear that’s where the difference is really made up.

Not sure if this is a joke given recent bonus news, but no. Difference is not made up in bonus (even with the multiples).

Correct. NSP comp at Kirkland is below market relative to what senior associates make at other firms. It actually surprises me that firm gets away with it; of course, it is easier to do so when they do things like they are doing here (I.e., send misleading comp memos about associate pay that they know will be made public, while sending individual memos to NSPs to obfuscate what they’re paying to those who are essentially senior associates).

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland match of cravath

And the Kirkland true-up will be paid on 3/15. Good news for someone about to put in my notice.

Glad someone called Kirkland out for its shady feb 1 retro date for NSPs.

Cringe (ATL is reporting on it: https://abovethelaw.com/2022/03/kirkland-re-raises-22/)

This, mixed with the garbage multipliers this year sounds like the death of K&E's "market leading" comp. I guess the new rebranding comes at a cost.

NSPs get hammered when it comes to comp, not surprised. As a first year NSP (7th year) you will make significantly less than you made as a 6th year. You pay non-resident income tax, unsubsidized health insurance, and other tax obligations that you don't think about (like having to pay the employer portion of social security). I haven't done the exact math, but my take home first year NSP (after I subtracted what I needed for taxes) was significantly lower than it was the year before (might be similar to what I made as a 5th year, but not sure).

What about your bonus tho? I hear that’s where the difference is really made up.

Not sure if this is a joke given recent bonus news, but no. Difference is not made up in bonus (even with the multiples).

Correct. NSP comp at Kirkland is below market relative to what senior associates make at other firms. It actually surprises me that firm gets away with it; of course, it is easier to do so when they do things like they are doing here (I.e., send misleading comp memos about associate pay that they know will be made public, while sending individual memos to NSPs to obfuscate what they’re paying to those who are essentially senior associates).

[Anonymous User]

Sidley just matched Cravath.

[Anonymous User]

Sidley just matched Cravath.

The memo is a bit weird, right? From a plain reading of it it suggests the March 11 paycheck will still have retroactive pay at the DPW rate and then the March 25 paycheck will have incremental retroactive pay to bring everybody up to the Cravath rate, but I would have thought they would just do everything at once. Not complaining either way, though.

[almostperfectt]

Sidley just matched Cravath.

The memo is a bit weird, right? From a plain reading of it it suggests the March 11 paycheck will still have retroactive pay at the DPW rate and then the March 25 paycheck will have incremental retroactive pay to bring everybody up to the Cravath rate, but I would have thought they would just do everything at once. Not complaining either way, though.

Might be too late to adjust March 11 paycheck. Usually payroll at firms say if you want to do adjustment get it in by the prior Wednesday or something.

[Anonymous User]

And the Kirkland true-up will be paid on 3/15. Good news for someone about to put in my notice.

Glad someone called Kirkland out for its shady feb 1 retro date for NSPs.

Cringe (ATL is reporting on it: https://abovethelaw.com/2022/03/kirkland-re-raises-22/)

This, mixed with the garbage multipliers this year sounds like the death of K&E's "market leading" comp. I guess the new rebranding comes at a cost.

NSPs get hammered when it comes to comp, not surprised. As a first year NSP (7th year) you will make significantly less than you made as a 6th year. You pay non-resident income tax, unsubsidized health insurance, and other tax obligations that you don't think about (like having to pay the employer portion of social security). I haven't done the exact math, but my take home first year NSP (after I subtracted what I needed for taxes) was significantly lower than it was the year before (might be similar to what I made as a 5th year, but not sure).

What about your bonus tho? I hear that’s where the difference is really made up.

Not sure if this is a joke given recent bonus news, but no. Difference is not made up in bonus (even with the multiples).

Correct. NSP comp at Kirkland is below market relative to what senior associates make at other firms. It actually surprises me that firm gets away with it; of course, it is easier to do so when they do things like they are doing here (I.e., send misleading comp memos about associate pay that they know will be made public, while sending individual memos to NSPs to obfuscate what they’re paying to those who are essentially senior associates).

What is base pay for the average 1st year as an NSP on the grid? Is it just the same as Cravath scale for class of 2015?

[Anonymous User]

Glad someone called Kirkland out for its shady feb 1 retro date for NSPs.

Cringe (ATL is reporting on it: https://abovethelaw.com/2022/03/kirkland-re-raises-22/)

This, mixed with the garbage multipliers this year sounds like the death of K&E's "market leading" comp. I guess the new rebranding comes at a cost.

NSPs get hammered when it comes to comp, not surprised. As a first year NSP (7th year) you will make significantly less than you made as a 6th year. You pay non-resident income tax, unsubsidized health insurance, and other tax obligations that you don't think about (like having to pay the employer portion of social security). I haven't done the exact math, but my take home first year NSP (after I subtracted what I needed for taxes) was significantly lower than it was the year before (might be similar to what I made as a 5th year, but not sure).

What about your bonus tho? I hear that’s where the difference is really made up.

Not sure if this is a joke given recent bonus news, but no. Difference is not made up in bonus (even with the multiples).

Correct. NSP comp at Kirkland is below market relative to what senior associates make at other firms. It actually surprises me that firm gets away with it; of course, it is easier to do so when they do things like they are doing here (I.e., send misleading comp memos about associate pay that they know will be made public, while sending individual memos to NSPs to obfuscate what they’re paying to those who are essentially senior associates).

What is base pay for the average 1st year as an NSP on the grid? Is it just the same as Cravath scale for class of 2015?

1st and 2nd year NSPs is just Cravath scale base salary, correct. Of which you pay taxes as a Partner, health insurance as a partner, etc.