Milbank/Davis Polk/Cravath Scale: NYC to 215-415k Forum

[Anonymous User]

I have been at two separate v50s, both of which capped out salaries for associates in/after your 8th year (i.e., the next opportunity for salary increase was promotion to partnership). But also agree with point made above that an 11th year has not necessarily been passed over for partnership. At these two (two tiered partnership) firms most do not make income partner in their first year of eligibility (8th year). I’m guessing it’s usually around your 10th year now, although you will probably know well before that whether you’ll ever be put up eventually. I imagine these things are very firm specific.

[Anonymous User]

What are the odds any of this movement has a real effect on markets like BOS, STL, MIN, KC, ATL, etc?

[Anonymous User]

Odds on a firm re-raising or adding special bonuses? I'd say it's pretty good. Milbank must be getting pissed that others keep one-upping it. Defend your honor!

[RaceJudicata]

What are the odds any of this movement has a real effect on markets like BOS, STL, MIN, KC, ATL, etc?

Boston really doesn’t fit in with the others in this group.

[Anonymous User]

What are the odds any of this movement has a real effect on markets like BOS, STL, MIN, KC, ATL, etc?

Boston really doesn’t fit in with the others in this group.

Arent King & Spalding and Alston & Bird paying market now? I think Boston and Atlanta (multiple firms that are gonna match) are in another tier from STL, MSP, KC (where not sure if there are any firms on market as it is).

[TigerIsBack]

What are the odds any of this movement has a real effect on markets like BOS, STL, MIN, KC, ATL, etc?

Boston really doesn’t fit in with the others in this group.

Arent King & Spalding and Alston & Bird paying market now? I think Boston and Atlanta (multiple firms that are gonna match) are in another tier from STL, MSP, KC (where not sure if there are any firms on market as it is).

Boston is absolutely not in a tier with Atlanta. Boston has like Ropes, Goodwin, Cooley, etc. Pretty sure even like Skadden, Latham, KE, Cooley, Wilmer and some others all have offices in Boston.

[Anonymous User]

What are the odds any of this movement has a real effect on markets like BOS, STL, MIN, KC, ATL, etc?

Boston really doesn’t fit in with the others in this group.

Arent King & Spalding and Alston & Bird paying market now? I think Boston and Atlanta (multiple firms that are gonna match) are in another tier from STL, MSP, KC (where not sure if there are any firms on market as it is).

Boston is absolutely not in a tier with Atlanta. Boston has like Ropes, Goodwin, Cooley, etc. Pretty sure even like Skadden, Latham, KE, Cooley, Wilmer and some others all have offices in Boston.

Market paying firms that have ATL offices pay market there. The number of market paying firms is irrelevant to the question of "will firms in x raise". Both Boston and Atlanta do not belong together with the non market regions.

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland match of cravath

[Anonymous User]

Boston is absolutely not in a tier with Atlanta. Boston has like Ropes, Goodwin, Cooley, etc. Pretty sure even like Skadden, Latham, KE, Cooley, Wilmer and some others all have offices in Boston.

Lolled at this

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

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Wilmer is HQd in Boston

[Anonymous User]

Quick reminder that compensation in IB has skyrocketed and that median first year BB associates are now taking home $325-375k TC. And they break $500k by year 3-4 after that. Source: https://docsend.com/view/kiabtrphqv6ihfp7

Not trying to ignite yet *another* TLS debate about how the skillsets are different, hours better/worse, yadda yadda. Just putting this all in perspective.

[Anonymous User]

Aren't associates like several years in for banking? First year banking associates are not the same thing as first year law firm associates

[Anonymous User]

Aren't associates like several years in for banking? First year banking associates are not the same thing as first year law firm associates

Graduating MBAs are hired into the associate position at banks; just like JDs and law firm associates. (MBA, obviously, is also a shorter and less expensive degree.)

[Anonymous User]

i don't want to start a new thread and be grilled for this but can someone recommend books that can teach this undiagnosed autist how to make friends and generally be likable? everyone i've ever met has thought i was awkward. not sure how i'm going to survive big law.

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland match of cravath

And the Kirkland true-up will be paid on 3/15. Good news for someone about to put in my notice.

[Anonymous User]

Aren't associates like several years in for banking? First year banking associates are not the same thing as first year law firm associates

Graduating MBAs are hired into the associate position at banks; just like JDs and law firm associates. (MBA, obviously, is also a shorter and less expensive degree.)

Doesn't that require a couple of years of work experience pre-MBA? And actual competence with Excel and quantitative skills? Not to mention an actual personality? Unlike the pencil pushers who can get a 1st year biglaw gig.

[Anonymous User]

Aren't associates like several years in for banking? First year banking associates are not the same thing as first year law firm associates

Graduating MBAs are hired into the associate position at banks; just like JDs and law firm associates. (MBA, obviously, is also a shorter and less expensive degree.)

Yup, the UG banking position is analyst. But also MBA's are expected to have several years WE, so not sure a post MBA position is perfectly equivalent to post JD.

[Anonymous User]

Aren't associates like several years in for banking? First year banking associates are not the same thing as first year law firm associates

Graduating MBAs are hired into the associate position at banks; just like JDs and law firm associates. (MBA, obviously, is also a shorter and less expensive degree.)

Doesn't that require a couple of years of work experience pre-MBA? And actual competence with Excel and quantitative skills? Not to mention an actual personality? Unlike the pencil pushers who can get a 1st year biglaw gig.

Getting hired in banking requires a somewhat better personality than biglaw requires. It's a more demanding job generally. My V20 employs many attorneys who would be laughed out of banking, primarily because these attorneys are some combination of incompetent and numerically illiterate.

i don't want to start a new thread and be grilled for this but can someone recommend books that can teach this undiagnosed autist how to make friends and generally be likable? everyone i've ever met has thought i was awkward. not sure how i'm going to survive big law.

Easy. Just work from home as much as allowed, and try not to make much small talk / conversation outside of work-related communications. You can still end up being a solid associate.

[Anonymous User]

What are the odds any of this movement has a real effect on markets like BOS, STL, MIN, KC, ATL, etc?

Boston really doesn’t fit in with the others in this group.

Arent King & Spalding and Alston & Bird paying market now? I think Boston and Atlanta (multiple firms that are gonna match) are in another tier from STL, MSP, KC (where not sure if there are any firms on market as it is).

Boston is absolutely not in a tier with Atlanta. Boston has like Ropes, Goodwin, Cooley, etc. Pretty sure even like Skadden, Latham, KE, Cooley, Wilmer and some others all have offices in Boston.

Market paying firms that have ATL offices pay market there. The number of market paying firms is irrelevant to the question of "will firms in x raise". Both Boston and Atlanta do not belong together with the non market regions.

This is such a bad comparison. ATL has two firms that pay market, and there aren't many market paying firms in the city (maybe 10 max).

Boston is on the same "tier" as Chicago/LA when it comes to salary discussions. If those cities move, Boston will move.

Also, a list of market paying firms in Boston:

HQ'd in Boston - Ropes, Goodwin, Wilmer, Choate, Fish & Richardson, Mintz (maybe market), Foley Hoag (maybe market), Goulston (maybe market)

Others - Skadden, Latham, Kirkland, Sidley, Weil, Quinn, White & Case, Cooley, MoFo, Hogan Lovells, Proskauer, Orrick, DLA, Morgan Lewis, Wilson Sonsini, Allen & Overy, Dechert, McDermott, Troutman Pepper (maybe market), Gunderson

And this is excluding some other firms that may pay market (Brown Rudnick, Holland & Knight)

That's a lot of law firms for a city with like 700,000 people.

[Anonymous User]

What are the odds any of this movement has a real effect on markets like BOS, STL, MIN, KC, ATL, etc?

Boston really doesn’t fit in with the others in this group.

Arent King & Spalding and Alston & Bird paying market now? I think Boston and Atlanta (multiple firms that are gonna match) are in another tier from STL, MSP, KC (where not sure if there are any firms on market as it is).

Boston is absolutely not in a tier with Atlanta. Boston has like Ropes, Goodwin, Cooley, etc. Pretty sure even like Skadden, Latham, KE, Cooley, Wilmer and some others all have offices in Boston.

Market paying firms that have ATL offices pay market there. The number of market paying firms is irrelevant to the question of "will firms in x raise". Both Boston and Atlanta do not belong together with the non market regions.

This is such a bad comparison. ATL has two firms that pay market, and there aren't many market paying firms in the city (maybe 10 max).

Boston is on the same "tier" as Chicago/LA when it comes to salary discussions. If those cities move, Boston will move.

Also, a list of market paying firms in Boston:

HQ'd in Boston - Ropes, Goodwin, Wilmer, Choate, Fish & Richardson, Mintz (maybe market), Foley Hoag (maybe market), Goulston (maybe market)

Others - Skadden, Latham, Kirkland, Sidley, Weil, Quinn, White & Case, Cooley, MoFo, Hogan Lovells, Proskauer, Orrick, DLA, Morgan Lewis, Wilson Sonsini, Allen & Overy, Dechert, McDermott, Troutman Pepper (maybe market), Gunderson

And this is excluding some other firms that may pay market (Brown Rudnick, Holland & Knight)

That's a lot of law firms for a city with like 700,000 people.

This is all completely irrelevant, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Yes, Boston is a bigger market than Atlanta, just like NY is bigger than either. But people in this thread are not asking about firms that have 30 attorneys. They are asking about biglaw. And the big firms that have Atlanta offices pay NY scale. This wasn't always the case, until fairly recently biglaw Atlanta paid below market.

[Anonymous User]

What are the odds any of this movement has a real effect on markets like BOS, STL, MIN, KC, ATL, etc?

Boston really doesn’t fit in with the others in this group.

Arent King & Spalding and Alston & Bird paying market now? I think Boston and Atlanta (multiple firms that are gonna match) are in another tier from STL, MSP, KC (where not sure if there are any firms on market as it is).

Boston is absolutely not in a tier with Atlanta. Boston has like Ropes, Goodwin, Cooley, etc. Pretty sure even like Skadden, Latham, KE, Cooley, Wilmer and some others all have offices in Boston.

Market paying firms that have ATL offices pay market there. The number of market paying firms is irrelevant to the question of "will firms in x raise". Both Boston and Atlanta do not belong together with the non market regions.

This is such a bad comparison. ATL has two firms that pay market, and there aren't many market paying firms in the city (maybe 10 max).

Boston is on the same "tier" as Chicago/LA when it comes to salary discussions. If those cities move, Boston will move.

Also, a list of market paying firms in Boston:

HQ'd in Boston - Ropes, Goodwin, Wilmer, Choate, Fish & Richardson, Mintz (maybe market), Foley Hoag (maybe market), Goulston (maybe market)

Others - Skadden, Latham, Kirkland, Sidley, Weil, Quinn, White & Case, Cooley, MoFo, Hogan Lovells, Proskauer, Orrick, DLA, Morgan Lewis, Wilson Sonsini, Allen & Overy, Dechert, McDermott, Troutman Pepper (maybe market), Gunderson

And this is excluding some other firms that may pay market (Brown Rudnick, Holland & Knight)

That's a lot of law firms for a city with like 700,000 people.

This is all completely irrelevant, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Yes, Boston is a bigger market than Atlanta, just like NY is bigger than either. But people in this thread are not asking about firms that have 30 attorneys. They are asking about biglaw. And the big firms that have Atlanta offices pay NY scale. This wasn't always the case, until fairly recently biglaw Atlanta paid below market.

I think it's relevant because people ask what's going to happen in Boston every time there's a raise. When there are that many firms in a market that pay market salary/bonus, there is never a worry whether the market will match.

I don't know if firms paying market in ATL will follow suit this time around. I think that's the differentiator between Boston and ATL. No one doubts whether Ropes will match and if Ropes matches, Wilmer and Goodwin will match.

That top end of the scale is really high. I think A&B and K&S will match because they have to in order to get the best talent, but I don't know if Troutman or Kilpatrick will (they already had a lot of compression at the senior level prior to the 2021 raise (for Troutman)). There are firms in ATL that haven't followed the market before, and with this latest raise, i think they'll be perfectly content not trying to match this time around as well (and the gap will grow).

Also, what do you mean by "firms with 30 attorneys"? None of the firms I mentioned above has 30 attorneys. The offices may, but those are international firms that pay market in the entire country.

[Anonymous User]

Boston really doesn’t fit in with the others in this group.

Arent King & Spalding and Alston & Bird paying market now? I think Boston and Atlanta (multiple firms that are gonna match) are in another tier from STL, MSP, KC (where not sure if there are any firms on market as it is).

Boston is absolutely not in a tier with Atlanta. Boston has like Ropes, Goodwin, Cooley, etc. Pretty sure even like Skadden, Latham, KE, Cooley, Wilmer and some others all have offices in Boston.

Market paying firms that have ATL offices pay market there. The number of market paying firms is irrelevant to the question of "will firms in x raise". Both Boston and Atlanta do not belong together with the non market regions.

This is such a bad comparison. ATL has two firms that pay market, and there aren't many market paying firms in the city (maybe 10 max).

Boston is on the same "tier" as Chicago/LA when it comes to salary discussions. If those cities move, Boston will move.

Also, a list of market paying firms in Boston:

HQ'd in Boston - Ropes, Goodwin, Wilmer, Choate, Fish & Richardson, Mintz (maybe market), Foley Hoag (maybe market), Goulston (maybe market)

Others - Skadden, Latham, Kirkland, Sidley, Weil, Quinn, White & Case, Cooley, MoFo, Hogan Lovells, Proskauer, Orrick, DLA, Morgan Lewis, Wilson Sonsini, Allen & Overy, Dechert, McDermott, Troutman Pepper (maybe market), Gunderson

And this is excluding some other firms that may pay market (Brown Rudnick, Holland & Knight)

That's a lot of law firms for a city with like 700,000 people.

This is all completely irrelevant, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Yes, Boston is a bigger market than Atlanta, just like NY is bigger than either. But people in this thread are not asking about firms that have 30 attorneys. They are asking about biglaw. And the big firms that have Atlanta offices pay NY scale. This wasn't always the case, until fairly recently biglaw Atlanta paid below market.

I think it's relevant because people ask what's going to happen in Boston every time there's a raise. When there are that many firms in a market that pay market salary/bonus, there is never a worry whether the market will match.

I don't know if firms paying market in ATL will follow suit this time around. I think that's the differentiator between Boston and ATL. No one doubts whether Ropes will match and if Ropes matches, Wilmer and Goodwin will match.

That top end of the scale is really high. I think A&B and K&S will match because they have to in order to get the best talent, but I don't know if Troutman or Kilpatrick will (they already had a lot of compression at the senior level prior to the 2021 raise (for Troutman)). There are firms in ATL that haven't followed the market before, and with this latest raise, i think they'll be perfectly content not trying to match this time around as well (and the gap will grow).

Also, what do you mean by "firms with 30 attorneys"? None of the firms I mentioned above has 30 attorneys. The offices may, but those are international firms that pay market in the entire country.

Troutman has offices in both Boston and Atlanta, on the same pay scale. abovethelaw.com/2021/08/troutman-pepper-raises/

[Anonymous User]

Boston really doesn’t fit in with the others in this group.

Arent King & Spalding and Alston & Bird paying market now? I think Boston and Atlanta (multiple firms that are gonna match) are in another tier from STL, MSP, KC (where not sure if there are any firms on market as it is).

Boston is absolutely not in a tier with Atlanta. Boston has like Ropes, Goodwin, Cooley, etc. Pretty sure even like Skadden, Latham, KE, Cooley, Wilmer and some others all have offices in Boston.

Market paying firms that have ATL offices pay market there. The number of market paying firms is irrelevant to the question of "will firms in x raise". Both Boston and Atlanta do not belong together with the non market regions.

This is such a bad comparison. ATL has two firms that pay market, and there aren't many market paying firms in the city (maybe 10 max).

Boston is on the same "tier" as Chicago/LA when it comes to salary discussions. If those cities move, Boston will move.

Also, a list of market paying firms in Boston:

HQ'd in Boston - Ropes, Goodwin, Wilmer, Choate, Fish & Richardson, Mintz (maybe market), Foley Hoag (maybe market), Goulston (maybe market)

Others - Skadden, Latham, Kirkland, Sidley, Weil, Quinn, White & Case, Cooley, MoFo, Hogan Lovells, Proskauer, Orrick, DLA, Morgan Lewis, Wilson Sonsini, Allen & Overy, Dechert, McDermott, Troutman Pepper (maybe market), Gunderson

And this is excluding some other firms that may pay market (Brown Rudnick, Holland & Knight)

That's a lot of law firms for a city with like 700,000 people.

This is all completely irrelevant, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Yes, Boston is a bigger market than Atlanta, just like NY is bigger than either. But people in this thread are not asking about firms that have 30 attorneys. They are asking about biglaw. And the big firms that have Atlanta offices pay NY scale. This wasn't always the case, until fairly recently biglaw Atlanta paid below market.

I think it's relevant because people ask what's going to happen in Boston every time there's a raise. When there are that many firms in a market that pay market salary/bonus, there is never a worry whether the market will match.

I don't know if firms paying market in ATL will follow suit this time around. I think that's the differentiator between Boston and ATL. No one doubts whether Ropes will match and if Ropes matches, Wilmer and Goodwin will match.

That top end of the scale is really high. I think A&B and K&S will match because they have to in order to get the best talent, but I don't know if Troutman or Kilpatrick will (they already had a lot of compression at the senior level prior to the 2021 raise (for Troutman)). There are firms in ATL that haven't followed the market before, and with this latest raise, i think they'll be perfectly content not trying to match this time around as well (and the gap will grow).

Also, what do you mean by "firms with 30 attorneys"? None of the firms I mentioned above has 30 attorneys. The offices may, but those are international firms that pay market in the entire country.

Goodwin matched Milbank before Ropes back in January. Any of the 3 could match Cravath first, I don't think Goodwin/Wilmer just follow Ropes.

[Anonymous User]

Arent King & Spalding and Alston & Bird paying market now? I think Boston and Atlanta (multiple firms that are gonna match) are in another tier from STL, MSP, KC (where not sure if there are any firms on market as it is).

Boston is absolutely not in a tier with Atlanta. Boston has like Ropes, Goodwin, Cooley, etc. Pretty sure even like Skadden, Latham, KE, Cooley, Wilmer and some others all have offices in Boston.

Market paying firms that have ATL offices pay market there. The number of market paying firms is irrelevant to the question of "will firms in x raise". Both Boston and Atlanta do not belong together with the non market regions.

This is such a bad comparison. ATL has two firms that pay market, and there aren't many market paying firms in the city (maybe 10 max).

Boston is on the same "tier" as Chicago/LA when it comes to salary discussions. If those cities move, Boston will move.

Also, a list of market paying firms in Boston:

HQ'd in Boston - Ropes, Goodwin, Wilmer, Choate, Fish & Richardson, Mintz (maybe market), Foley Hoag (maybe market), Goulston (maybe market)

Others - Skadden, Latham, Kirkland, Sidley, Weil, Quinn, White & Case, Cooley, MoFo, Hogan Lovells, Proskauer, Orrick, DLA, Morgan Lewis, Wilson Sonsini, Allen & Overy, Dechert, McDermott, Troutman Pepper (maybe market), Gunderson

And this is excluding some other firms that may pay market (Brown Rudnick, Holland & Knight)

That's a lot of law firms for a city with like 700,000 people.

This is all completely irrelevant, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Yes, Boston is a bigger market than Atlanta, just like NY is bigger than either. But people in this thread are not asking about firms that have 30 attorneys. They are asking about biglaw. And the big firms that have Atlanta offices pay NY scale. This wasn't always the case, until fairly recently biglaw Atlanta paid below market.

I think it's relevant because people ask what's going to happen in Boston every time there's a raise. When there are that many firms in a market that pay market salary/bonus, there is never a worry whether the market will match.

I don't know if firms paying market in ATL will follow suit this time around. I think that's the differentiator between Boston and ATL. No one doubts whether Ropes will match and if Ropes matches, Wilmer and Goodwin will match.

That top end of the scale is really high. I think A&B and K&S will match because they have to in order to get the best talent, but I don't know if Troutman or Kilpatrick will (they already had a lot of compression at the senior level prior to the 2021 raise (for Troutman)). There are firms in ATL that haven't followed the market before, and with this latest raise, i think they'll be perfectly content not trying to match this time around as well (and the gap will grow).

Also, what do you mean by "firms with 30 attorneys"? None of the firms I mentioned above has 30 attorneys. The offices may, but those are international firms that pay market in the entire country.

Troutman has offices in both Boston and Atlanta, on the same pay scale. abovethelaw.com/2021/08/troutman-pepper-raises/

By that logic, Richmond and Charlotte are also on the same "tier" as Boston. I get what you're saying about a firm choosing to pay its associates on the same scale in all major cities (McGuireWoods, Holland & Knight, DLA and Foley & Lardner also moved to that), but I view it as the total number or percentage of market-paying positions out of all "biglaw" jobs (including non-market). Atlanta is probably closer to Charlotte than Boston. Also, if we use your logic, since DLA is in many markets and pays market salary, all markets are the same.