Prediction: When will NYC lawyers return to the office? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I honestly don’t think my firm is ever going to “force” us to come back...we were not a face time firm before this and we will be even less a face time firm after this. I do think however that at some point over the summer they are going to do a “soft opening” of the office (like you can come in if you want without jumping through hoops like you have to now) with the “official open” after Labor Day. I honestly feel like I’m going to go back a few days a week...miss the social interaction and I feel smarter in the office lol. But never 5 days a week again.

[Chrstgtr]

My lease is up at end of April and thinking of signing a year lease in hometown and just, if the firm reopens, telling them I am uncomfortable returning until after that lease expires. Going to have a newborn at home, so really not in a rush to get back to office.

Do we think I'll get fired for telling them I wont go back to the office until April 2022? Or do I just keep quiet and move

It's a crazy time, so I doubt they'll just out and fire you without some further discussion / chance to move back, but I don't see how you're going to be able to "keep it quiet," at least from HR--you have to tell them where you live because they/you will have to pay taxes there.* You may be able to keep it quiet given remote work, but you'd probably be committing some sort of failure to file tax crime.

*I guess you could be moving back to somewhere like Buffalo from New York City and end up paying the same state tax, but then you'd be paying New York City tax for no reason.

You have to pay new york state tax no matter where you live. You can avoid city tax by simply moving to jersey

There’s an article on Big Law Investor that says if you work in a different state out of necessity rather than convenience, you don’t have to pay, in this case, NYS taxes. I wonder if that will apply to NYC summer associates, since it really isn’t about convenience?

But also, I believe there’s a case pending cert in front of the Court that challenges whether states can tax out of state citizens who never step foot into a state.

Unfortunately NYS said last year that anyone who is remote for Covid still has to pay NYS tax. Whether or not that changes is a separate question

Oh ok, thanks for the info. It’ll be real interesting to see if it goes before the Court. It could cost NY a ton of money (for better or for worse).

I don't see how NYS can argue that WFH wasn't out of necessity when there were lockdowns that legally prevented people coming to the office. Nonetheless, NYS made it very clear that first responders going to NYC at the height of the pandemic needed to pay state taxes, so I highly doubt they will change their mind voluntarily.

[musafir]

Dr. Fauci recently said he expects open season for vaccinations in April for anyone who wants them. I wonder how this will impact the return to office timeline.

[purplegoldtornado]

My lease is up at end of April and thinking of signing a year lease in hometown and just, if the firm reopens, telling them I am uncomfortable returning until after that lease expires. Going to have a newborn at home, so really not in a rush to get back to office.

Do we think I'll get fired for telling them I wont go back to the office until April 2022? Or do I just keep quiet and move

It's a crazy time, so I doubt they'll just out and fire you without some further discussion / chance to move back, but I don't see how you're going to be able to "keep it quiet," at least from HR--you have to tell them where you live because they/you will have to pay taxes there.* You may be able to keep it quiet given remote work, but you'd probably be committing some sort of failure to file tax crime.

*I guess you could be moving back to somewhere like Buffalo from New York City and end up paying the same state tax, but then you'd be paying New York City tax for no reason.

You have to pay new york state tax no matter where you live. You can avoid city tax by simply moving to jersey

There’s an article on Big Law Investor that says if you work in a different state out of necessity rather than convenience, you don’t have to pay, in this case, NYS taxes. I wonder if that will apply to NYC summer associates, since it really isn’t about convenience?

But also, I believe there’s a case pending cert in front of the Court that challenges whether states can tax out of state citizens who never step foot into a state.

Unfortunately NYS said last year that anyone who is remote for Covid still has to pay NYS tax. Whether or not that changes is a separate question

Oh ok, thanks for the info. It’ll be real interesting to see if it goes before the Court. It could cost NY a ton of money (for better or for worse).

I don't see how NYS can argue that WFH wasn't out of necessity when there were lockdowns that legally prevented people coming to the office. Nonetheless, NYS made it very clear that first responders going to NYC at the height of the pandemic needed to pay state taxes, so I highly doubt they will change their mind voluntarily.

I don’t know either! But I just said it like that so as to not say anything too conclusively!

[Anonymous User]

I heard today that voluntary return will start in the fall but nothing mandatory until next year. That said, not sure how this squares with the plummeting case loads

[Anonymous User]

I heard today that voluntary return will start in the fall but nothing mandatory until next year. That said, not sure how this squares with the plummeting case loads

[Anonymous User]

Nothing official, but have heard the same timeline. Makes sense assuming widely distributed vaccine by June and a view of letting folks get vaccinated over summer. Despite hearing that same timeline, wouldn’t be surprised if voluntary return starts June / July and mandatory fall or next year.

[Anonymous User]

Our T14's career office has confirmed that OCI this summer will be fully virtual, but says some firms have still said they want to do in-person callbacks.

[jotarokujo]

would be surprised if mandatory in NYC starts before march 2022. in secondary markets i can see it being early

[Anonymous User]

March 2022 seems very late - what makes you think that? That would presumably be later than return to normal life by any conservative estimate out there...

[Anonymous User]

Well, Fauci was just on the news saying we might need to wear masks into 2022.

[Anonymous User]

I mean, won't "voluntary" return implicitly mean *cough cough mandatory* return for most 1st and 2nd year associates, absent some extraordinary circumstance?

As soon as the senior or partner gets back into the office routine (and you just know some of them are dying to do so), I feel like the jig is up.

[Anonymous User]

Don’t think that is the case re: implicit pressure about COVID (meaning it won’t be held against you, not meaning you won’t feel FOMO about not being there). There will be a voluntary date and a mandatory date to return to a new normal (e.g. my guess is market is 3-4 days a week in office). Have heard informally that voluntary in the fall / nothing mandatory this year. Could see that being voluntary in June / July and mandatory in Fall / winter

[Anonymous User]

Well, Fauci was just on the news saying we might need to wear masks into 2022.

Those headlines were misleading. He did not say that. He said he saw it falling away but some people doing it.

Also, FWIW, my gov employer said they're thinking about May as a potential return date.

[blair.waldorf]

Gonna need a new job if my firm wants me back more than 3 days a week.

Also hoping our dress code is more casual after this.

[nixy]

Well, Fauci was just on the news saying we might need to wear masks into 2022.

Those headlines were misleading. He did not say that. He said he saw it falling away but some people doing it.

Also, FWIW, my gov employer said they're thinking about May as a potential return date.

From the WaPo:

However, Fauci also said that face masks — for many Americans, one of the most visible signs of abnormality — may still be necessary in 2022.
“I think it is possible that is the case,” he said when asked whether Americans will still be wearing masks next year. The level of new infections must go “way down,” he added, before he could say people needn’t wear face coverings.

[jotarokujo]

March 2022 seems very late - what makes you think that? That would presumably be later than return to normal life by any conservative estimate out there...

because i don't think market firms are going to force people in as soon as it's safe to do so. It will certainly be optional long before that, and in practice probably most will be in the office most days, but i don't see firms forcing people in at that point.

the minority of people who want to go 0 days a week will probably be allowed to do so for a long time. most will probably be in ~2-3 days a week at that point

[Anonymous User]

People who are saying they expect the "new normal" (forever) to be 2-3 days in office, and 2-3 days WFH: is this just wishful thinking or are partners/associates actually saying this?

-A curious law student

[Anonymous User]

As a very senior associate who plans to stay at the firm, all I can tell you is I plan to WFH 2 days a week and spend a significant amount of time places other than the city on most weeks. Possibly slightly more face time for juniors (although that’s just a guess). So my own belief is that things have changed significantly. The point of office is to facilitate a culture and training, both of which can be done in a hybrid model, but none of which can be accomplished with fully remote. So I think the standard will be 2-3 days a week in office for most big law attorneys, with more flexibility for mids and seniors. The other issue underlying all of this is the fact that many firms are extremely busy and have very few associates. That will require flexibility to keep folks happier longer. Speculation I guess, but would be surprised if there is a market for 4 or 5 days required in office after 18 months fully remote...I don’t think even most senior partners will want that. Younger partners very much like the ability
to WFH and reclaim family life and the efficiencies that come with a hybrid model

[Anonymous User]

As a very senior associate who plans to stay at the firm, all I can tell you is I plan to WFH 2 days a week and spend a significant amount of time places other than the city on most weeks. Possibly slightly more face time for juniors (although that’s just a guess). So my own belief is that things have changed significantly. The point of office is to facilitate a culture and training, both of which can be done in a hybrid model, but none of which can be accomplished with fully remote. So I think the standard will be 2-3 days a week in office for most big law attorneys, with more flexibility for mids and seniors. The other issue underlying all of this is the fact that many firms are extremely busy and have very few associates. That will require flexibility to keep folks happier longer. Speculation I guess, but would be surprised if there is a market for 4 or 5 days required in office after 18 months fully remote...I don’t think even most senior partners will want that. Younger partners very much like the ability
to WFH and reclaim family life and the efficiencies that come with a hybrid model

Will firms be open to near-100% remote (aside from occasional visits for firm events and cles etc) for more senior people?

[Anonymous User]

If firms permanently downsize offices over the next couple of years, reduce travel expenses and so on, does a Cravath/Milbank scale bump become more likely, to share some of the cost savings with associates?

[Anonymous User]

If firms permanently downsize offices over the next couple of years, reduce travel expenses and so on, does a Cravath/Milbank scale bump become more likely, to share some of the cost savings with associates?

$180k was in 2016; $190k was 2018. Not outrageous to think that it could bump to $200k in the next year or two. Especially if firms continue to do well with keeping costs down and after a surprisingly strong 2020.

On the other hand, there could be a psychological hurdle to get over in order to break through to $200k, especially with the last raise being fairly recent. It would be equally unsurprising to see it stay at $190k for the next 5-7 years, more in line with the 9-years it took to go from $160k to $180k.

[Anonymous User]

More flexibility definitely makes BL a lot more attractive. I think it would be a missed opportunity for firms to not take advantage of that

[Anonymous User]

Just one anecdote, but my firm is leasing additional office space in our building since one of the other tenants are vacating. By the time the office reopens we'll have more space, not less, than when we went into lockdown. No one said anything this effect, but my initial thought was "guess the partners aren't thinking we're going to be staying remote longer than we need to."

[Anonymous User]

Deleted. Repeat.