Biglawyers. Are any of you happy? Was this job better than others you've had? Forum

[Phil Brooks]

I really like the tone and content of this post

you come from some prole, slack-jawed family that never had money

:-/

Fair enough. Edited.

[juzam_djinn]

Pointing out that juzam's anecdote is dumb - well, yes, that's the point. I think it was intended to be just as dumb and pointless as the earlier one in the thread. One guy liked it and stayed. Another guy didn't like it and left. Both had lots of opportunities and wasn't forced out. If you think either story says anything it's because of your existing beliefs.

It was a lot dumber and more pointless than the earlier example, for the reasons I already gave above.

it wasn't, and you didn't give any good reasons to show that it was. also, there are lots of people that have worked in eng and law (myself included), there are people who were at the top of their engineering field and decided to switch. at my old tech company (think apple/fb/google/ms), there were also heaps of jaded senior swe's and also jaded product managers. bottom line is that there are lots of people who hate their jobs and all of the reasons for biglaw being uniquely bad in this thread are just exercises in distinguishing and differentiating, something lawyers are paid to do...

[84651846190]

Pointing out that juzam's anecdote is dumb - well, yes, that's the point. I think it was intended to be just as dumb and pointless as the earlier one in the thread. One guy liked it and stayed. Another guy didn't like it and left. Both had lots of opportunities and wasn't forced out. If you think either story says anything it's because of your existing beliefs.

It was a lot dumber and more pointless than the earlier example, for the reasons I already gave above.

it wasn't, and you didn't give any good reasons to show that it was. also, there are lots of people that have worked in eng and law (myself included), there are people who were at the top of their engineering field and decided to switch. at my old tech company (think apple/fb/google/ms), there were also heaps of jaded senior swe's and also jaded product managers. bottom line is that there are lots of people who hate their jobs and all of the reasons for biglaw being uniquely bad in this thread are just exercises in distinguishing and differentiating, something lawyers are paid to do...

Someone who is in the middle of a SCOTUS clerkship has an added 250k incentive to stay in law for at least a year after ending his/her clerkship that someone coming out of a district court clerkship does not have. Add to that the life-long prestige bump for the SCOTUS clerkship that is incomparably better than any bump you get from anything else in law and you're not comparing apples to apples.

The broader point I'm making, which I've made numerous times on this board, is that law is an awesome outcome for the top 1% of lawyers. Unfortunately, every law student on TLS thinks he/she is going to be in the top 1%. I'm trying to convey what it's like to be a non-top 1% biglawyer. I'm afraid that it's not even close to what most people on here aspire to be.

[jkpolk]

There are so many things I can think of that I would rather do with my life if I were single. Biglaw is near the bottom of the list. If biglaw is really the best thing you can come up with as a career when you're a forever-alone type, I really feel bad for you

Agree. Closely related, I think it's fucking nuts how many relatively creative people with decent credentials and experience exit directly into similarly brain dead careers. If you're getting out, get OUT. Manage kanye's vineyard or some shit. Don't do something similarly meaningless and rote by managing spreadsheets for fucking MBB, etc. because you thought biglaw was meaningless and rote. It's pretty easy to advocate for yourself if youre willing to spin big law "experience" to do something more interesting.

[juzam_djinn]

Pointing out that juzam's anecdote is dumb - well, yes, that's the point. I think it was intended to be just as dumb and pointless as the earlier one in the thread. One guy liked it and stayed. Another guy didn't like it and left. Both had lots of opportunities and wasn't forced out. If you think either story says anything it's because of your existing beliefs.

It was a lot dumber and more pointless than the earlier example, for the reasons I already gave above.

it wasn't, and you didn't give any good reasons to show that it was. also, there are lots of people that have worked in eng and law (myself included), there are people who were at the top of their engineering field and decided to switch. at my old tech company (think apple/fb/google/ms), there were also heaps of jaded senior swe's and also jaded product managers. bottom line is that there are lots of people who hate their jobs and all of the reasons for biglaw being uniquely bad in this thread are just exercises in distinguishing and differentiating, something lawyers are paid to do...

Someone who is in the middle of a SCOTUS clerkship has an added 250k incentive to stay in law for at least a year after ending his/her clerkship that someone coming out of a district court clerkship does not have. Add to that the life-long prestige bump for the SCOTUS clerkship that is incomparably better than any bump you get from anything else in law and you're not comparing apples to apples.

The broader point I'm making, which I've made numerous times on this board, is that law is an awesome outcome for the top 1% of lawyers. Unfortunately, every law student on TLS thinks he/she is going to be in the top 1%. I'm trying to convey what it's like to be a non-top 1% biglawyer. I'm afraid that it's not even close to what most people on here aspire to be.

yeah, I've thought about your broader point before and I agree with it. top 1% is a bit deceptive IMO since most people on TLS are already in the top 50-60% of law students in terms of preparedness and self-initiative. Actually going online to research the legal profession and market puts you way ahead of the curve already. So for TLS standards, it's probably something like top 5-10% outcomes are really excellent. But my opinion is that the rest of the outcomes really aren't much worse than your average corporate or engineering gig. At the end of the day, no matter how we spin it, even the best of us are cogs in a machine.

[Anonymous User]

Pointing out that juzam's anecdote is dumb - well, yes, that's the point. I think it was intended to be just as dumb and pointless as the earlier one in the thread. One guy liked it and stayed. Another guy didn't like it and left. Both had lots of opportunities and wasn't forced out. If you think either story says anything it's because of your existing beliefs.

It was a lot dumber and more pointless than the earlier example, for the reasons I already gave above.

it wasn't, and you didn't give any good reasons to show that it was. also, there are lots of people that have worked in eng and law (myself included), there are people who were at the top of their engineering field and decided to switch. at my old tech company (think apple/fb/google/ms), there were also heaps of jaded senior swe's and also jaded product managers. bottom line is that there are lots of people who hate their jobs and all of the reasons for biglaw being uniquely bad in this thread are just exercises in distinguishing and differentiating, something lawyers are paid to do...

Someone who is in the middle of a SCOTUS clerkship has an added 250k incentive to stay in law for at least a year after ending his/her clerkship that someone coming out of a district court clerkship does not have. Add to that the life-long prestige bump for the SCOTUS clerkship that is incomparably better than any bump you get from anything else in law and you're not comparing apples to apples.

The broader point I'm making, which I've made numerous times on this board, is that law is an awesome outcome for the top 1% of lawyers. Unfortunately, every law student on TLS thinks he/she is going to be in the top 1%. I'm trying to convey what it's like to be a non-top 1% biglawyer. I'm afraid that it's not even close to what most people on here aspire to be.

yeah, I've thought about your broader point before and I agree with it. top 1% is a bit deceptive IMO since most people on TLS are already in the top 50-60% of law students in terms of preparedness and self-initiative. Actually going online to research the legal profession and market puts you way ahead of the curve already. So for TLS standards, it's probably something like top 5-10% outcomes are really excellent. But my opinion is that the rest of the outcomes really aren't much worse than your average corporate or engineering gig. At the end of the day, no matter how we spin it, even the best of us are cogs in a machine.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proletariat

[Alive97]

This thread is a sad, sad place.

[Danger Zone]

This thread is a sad, sad place.

Biglaw is a sad place.

[84651846190]

This thread is a sad, sad place.

Biglaw is a sad place.

[jrass]

This thread is a sad, sad place.

Biglaw is a sad place.

It's not that bad. While it becomes your entire life, that's not that unreasonable considering no jobs pay you a comparable salary when you're useless with no idea of what you're doing, and most of the crazies, assholes and sketcheys in the profession get filtered out.

[Danger Zone]

This thread is a sad, sad place.

Biglaw is a sad place.

It's not that bad. While it becomes your entire life, that's not that unreasonable considering no jobs pay you a comparable salary when you're useless with no idea of what you're doing, and most of the crazies, assholes and sketcheys in the profession get filtered out.

Maybe not everyone cares so much about the salary

[Anonymous User]

This thread is a sad, sad place.

Biglaw is a sad place.

It's not that bad. While it becomes your entire life, that's not that unreasonable considering no jobs pay you a comparable salary when you're useless with no idea of what you're doing, and most of the crazies, assholes and sketcheys in the profession get filtered out.

Maybe not everyone cares so much about the salary

lol at the bolded .... you have to be pretty bad at everything else to think you can't make six figures doing something better than this shit.

[84651846190]

This thread is a sad, sad place.

Biglaw is a sad place.

It's not that bad. While it becomes your entire life, that's not that unreasonable considering no jobs pay you a comparable salary when you're useless with no idea of what you're doing, and most of the crazies, assholes and sketcheys in the profession get filtered out.

Maybe not everyone cares so much about the salary

lol at the bolded .... you have to be pretty bad at everything else to think you can't make six figures doing something better than this shit.

I think it's true that many people in biglaw could be making six figures doing something else. But there are some robot-like people who have gotten to biglaw by pure effort/striving (and NOT through their creativity or brilliance). For these latter people, biglaw might make sense.

[Abbie Doobie]

This thread is a sad, sad place.

Biglaw is a sad place.

It's not that bad. While it becomes your entire life, that's not that unreasonable considering no jobs pay you a comparable salary when you're useless with no idea of what you're doing, and most of the crazies, assholes and sketcheys in the profession get filtered out.

(stockholm syndrome)

[ruski]

This thread is a sad, sad place.

Biglaw is a sad place.

It's not that bad. While it becomes your entire life, that's not that unreasonable considering no jobs pay you a comparable salary when you're useless with no idea of what you're doing, and most of the crazies, assholes and sketcheys in the profession get filtered out.

actually the opposite is true. all the normal people get weeded out because they realize it's not worth for the extra ~40k they are getting and they move on to inhouse, smaller firms, etc. so really you're left with the crazies, assholes and sketcheys in the top positions who make everyones lives miserable and so the process goes on and on. In my experience the amount of "normal" people at the top ranks is extremely small. if you find a normal senior/counsel/partner snatch on to them asap, working for them could give you a totally difference experience

[Anonymous User]

This could depend on what you mean by "biglaw." I am at a law firm that is arguably biglaw (also arguably midlaw that pays market or regional biglaw). We've hired a bunch of laterals from larger, more "prestigious" firms. They invariably say how much better it is to be at our firm and tell horror stories about their previous job.

[Anonymous User]

This thread is a sad, sad place.

Biglaw is a sad place.

It's not that bad. While it becomes your entire life, that's not that unreasonable considering no jobs pay you a comparable salary when you're useless with no idea of what you're doing, and most of the crazies, assholes and sketcheys in the profession get filtered out.

actually the opposite is true. all the normal people get weeded out because they realize it's not worth for the extra ~40k they are getting and they move on to inhouse, smaller firms, etc. so really you're left with the crazies, assholes and sketcheys in the top positions who make everyones lives miserable and so the process goes on and on. In my experience the amount of "normal" people at the top ranks is extremely small. if you find a normal senior/counsel/partner snatch on to them asap, working for them could give you a totally difference experience

This is incredibly true, the people that stay are the crazy people. And even if the people are normal, the clients are all freaking crazy people with no respect for their own or other people's lives. I am about to leave my V25 firm after a year because I honestly can't imagine doing this shit anymore.

[jrass]

This thread is a sad, sad place.

Biglaw is a sad place.

It's not that bad. While it becomes your entire life, that's not that unreasonable considering no jobs pay you a comparable salary when you're useless with no idea of what you're doing, and most of the crazies, assholes and sketcheys in the profession get filtered out.

actually the opposite is true. all the normal people get weeded out because they realize it's not worth for the extra ~40k they are getting and they move on to inhouse, smaller firms, etc. so really you're left with the crazies, assholes and sketcheys in the top positions who make everyones lives miserable and so the process goes on and on. In my experience the amount of "normal" people at the top ranks is extremely small. if you find a normal senior/counsel/partner snatch on to them asap, working for them could give you a totally difference experience

The ones at the top have are making millions and millions. 160 is only for us inept inbreds. The crazies (as defined as difficult to get along with and unnecessarily mean) tend to be associates who had very strict parenting resulting in impressive academic achievements and a perpetually serious personality with a self concept predicated upon an over-inflated ego, and the strong belief that anyone who has interests or relationships outside of work can't have a good work ethic.

Also, the 9-5 100k job seems pretty great, but that option was never available to me. Being a supermodel like Derek Zoolander also seems like a great job. You make a lot of money, and only have to pose for some photos and turn left and right on some runways. However, this job also was never available to me before or after law school.

That said, the main thing that makes it so hard (the hours) could easily be mitigated by letting people work at home. It's fairly common to be in the office without much to do all day only to find out at 6 you now have 4 hours of work to do. It's kind of a lose-lose because you have to be at work for 12 hours that day, and only get credit for 4 hours of work. Even though you only billed 4 hours that day, your brain and body feel like they did 12 hours of work. By burning out quicker you're way less profitable for your firm than if these days are all 4 hour days, because you're not required to show up face-to-face unless there's a planned meeting. I'd venture to say that of all the people who grind and hustle through law school to get these positions approximately 0 of them would slack off because they don't have to go into the office 5 days a week.

[Johann]

This thread is a sad, sad place.

Biglaw is a sad place.

It's not that bad. While it becomes your entire life, that's not that unreasonable considering no jobs pay you a comparable salary when you're useless with no idea of what you're doing, and most of the crazies, assholes and sketcheys in the profession get filtered out.

actually the opposite is true. all the normal people get weeded out because they realize it's not worth for the extra ~40k they are getting and they move on to inhouse, smaller firms, etc. so really you're left with the crazies, assholes and sketcheys in the top positions who make everyones lives miserable and so the process goes on and on. In my experience the amount of "normal" people at the top ranks is extremely small. if you find a normal senior/counsel/partner snatch on to them asap, working for them could give you a totally difference experience

This is incredibly true, the people that stay are the crazy people. And even if the people are normal, the clients are all freaking crazy people with no respect for their own or other people's lives. I am about to leave my V25 firm after a year because I honestly can't imagine doing this shit anymore.

if you were at V10 how much longer would you have stuck it out?

[jrass]

This thread is a sad, sad place.

Biglaw is a sad place.

It's not that bad. While it becomes your entire life, that's not that unreasonable considering no jobs pay you a comparable salary when you're useless with no idea of what you're doing, and most of the crazies, assholes and sketcheys in the profession get filtered out.

actually the opposite is true. all the normal people get weeded out because they realize it's not worth for the extra ~40k they are getting and they move on to inhouse, smaller firms, etc. so really you're left with the crazies, assholes and sketcheys in the top positions who make everyones lives miserable and so the process goes on and on. In my experience the amount of "normal" people at the top ranks is extremely small. if you find a normal senior/counsel/partner snatch on to them asap, working for them could give you a totally difference experience

This is incredibly true, the people that stay are the crazy people. And even if the people are normal, the clients are all freaking crazy people with no respect for their own or other people's lives. I am about to leave my V25 firm after a year because I honestly can't imagine doing this shit anymore.

I wanted to add to supplement my previous comment and say that a lot of the stress is created by clients having enormous expectations, and the fact that most firms aren't in a position to turn down working with a client willing to pay their rates regardless of how crazy they are. With the rates they pay, I'd argue that the clients are largely justified, but that this fact makes big law inherently more stressful for everyone involved. That said, if someone is unnecessarily adding to the stress then it's probably best not to work with them. I'd rather be fired for low hours than burn myself out, and be damaged goods for the next 50 years.

[Anonymous User]

This thread is a sad, sad place.

Biglaw is a sad place.

It's not that bad. While it becomes your entire life, that's not that unreasonable considering no jobs pay you a comparable salary when you're useless with no idea of what you're doing, and most of the crazies, assholes and sketcheys in the profession get filtered out.

actually the opposite is true. all the normal people get weeded out because they realize it's not worth for the extra ~40k they are getting and they move on to inhouse, smaller firms, etc. so really you're left with the crazies, assholes and sketcheys in the top positions who make everyones lives miserable and so the process goes on and on. In my experience the amount of "normal" people at the top ranks is extremely small. if you find a normal senior/counsel/partner snatch on to them asap, working for them could give you a totally difference experience

This is incredibly true, the people that stay are the crazy people. And even if the people are normal, the clients are all freaking crazy people with no respect for their own or other people's lives. I am about to leave my V25 firm after a year because I honestly can't imagine doing this shit anymore.

if you were at V10 how much longer would you have stuck it out?

How do you know i'm not at a v10? Answer is i'd be out just as fast.

[beepboopbeep]

This is incredibly true, the people that stay are the crazy people. And even if the people are normal, the clients are all freaking crazy people with no respect for their own or other people's lives. I am about to leave my V25 firm after a year because I honestly can't imagine doing this shit anymore.

if you were at V10 how much longer would you have stuck it out?

How do you know i'm not at a v10? Answer is i'd be out just as fast.

because you said v25 and not v10

but tbh he was just making fun of you for saying the vault range

[Anonymous User]

This is incredibly true, the people that stay are the crazy people. And even if the people are normal, the clients are all freaking crazy people with no respect for their own or other people's lives. I am about to leave my V25 firm after a year because I honestly can't imagine doing this shit anymore.

if you were at V10 how much longer would you have stuck it out?

How do you know i'm not at a v10? Answer is i'd be out just as fast.

because you said v25 and not v10

but tbh he was just making fun of you for saying the vault range

Oh ok, cool!

[Anonymous User]

(copy pastes "Defendant objects to the request because it is overly broad, unduly burdensome, and/or not reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence" 50 times in a row)

(is using his time on earth wisely)

I've even seen a response with an "Objection Key"

It started out listing about 12 discovery objections. Then it addressed each request individually by literally saying: "Defendant objects to the request because of Objections 1, 2, 6, 7, and 9. Furthermore, Defendant objects to the request because it is overly broad, unduly burdensome, and/or not reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence." They were even too lazy to copy and paste the objections...might as well just write down numbers. I thought it was kind of ingenious, actually.

Obviously, pre-discovery complaints, briefs, and sometimes motions for summary judgment and the like have to be at least somewhat originally written because they're more fact intensive. Unless you're at some injury/bankrupcy/worker's comp mill that files dozens of nuisance suits for the "get off my ass" settlement value alone (or if you're at an ID mill defending these suits). Which, to be honest, constitute the majority of lawsuits filed in this country. But you mostly won't be doing these at Biglaw, at least. But even stuff like MSJ/MTD/Complaint/Response will have a lot of the same stuff over and over if you're in a narrow-ish practice area.

But if I had to guess, something like 90% of all discovery motions and 99% of responses filed are cut n' paste other than substituting a few different names and dates here and there.

Routine discovery responses are cut-and-paste because that same R+O format has been used in dozens of cases and reviewed by dozens of partners/sr. associates without any problems. But that's why a junior associate can do them. Same with answers - no need to reinvent the wheel.

However, IME (biglaw lit) discovery disputes are a extremely time-intensive and frustrating - even an email to opposing counsel summarizing a call regarding the scope of search terms will get a look from a partner. A letter to the Court setting out the status of document production and the need for a status conference might get several drafts. Discovery motions can be done without client authorization (but with general direction as to how much fighting the client wants to do) but they certainly can't be cut-and-paste - if a dispute reaches the motion stage you usually need a very good case-specific reason why you need the info and the other side has decent arguments on either relevancy or privilege as to why they won't give it to you.

The substantive/case dispositive motions I've worked on will often get like 30 drafts or something and are pretty much written from scratch. IME appeal briefs are the most likely to be cut and pasted from previous motions, despite the common idea among law students that appellate lawyers are these brilliant proto-scholars sitting in their offices debating the finer points of the law. Often this is client-driven, by the time the case is on appeal the client is tired of spending six-figures on every brief.

[Anonymous User]

This thread is a sad, sad place.

Biglaw is a sad place.

It's not that bad. While it becomes your entire life, that's not that unreasonable considering no jobs pay you a comparable salary when you're useless with no idea of what you're doing, and most of the crazies, assholes and sketcheys in the profession get filtered out.

actually the opposite is true. all the normal people get weeded out because they realize it's not worth for the extra ~40k they are getting and they move on to inhouse, smaller firms, etc. so really you're left with the crazies, assholes and sketcheys in the top positions who make everyones lives miserable and so the process goes on and on. In my experience the amount of "normal" people at the top ranks is extremely small. if you find a normal senior/counsel/partner snatch on to them asap, working for them could give you a totally difference experience

This is incredibly true, the people that stay are the crazy people. And even if the people are normal, the clients are all freaking crazy people with no respect for their own or other people's lives. I am about to leave my V25 firm after a year because I honestly can't imagine doing this shit anymore.

This has been my experience as well. Beyond just being crazy, it's the losers that stay, for lack of a better word. The kind of people that genuinely don't have anything better to do on Friday or Saturday night. Moving commas in paperwork that no one on the business side gives a shit about is actually the most interesting thing they have going on. Some of these people haven't watched a movie or read a book in what seems like years. Drinks with friends on a regular basis? LOL no. It's fucking pathetic.

The normal but still ambitious people realize their fuckup in going law over business and try to lateral into banking or the business side ASAP. Do any of you know a JD/MBA from a decent school that took transactional biglaw (not lit) over banking or consulting? Fuck no. The normal but not so ambitious people take that inhouse job ASAP and enjoy their free time. Then you have plenty that leave law entirely. I went to a solid undergrad and know a decent number of bankers, consultants, engineers, software types, and a few in various medical fields, and none want to leave their field entirely like the lawyers. Plenty of them don't like their jobs, but very few genuinely hate their jobs like many of the lawyers I know.

For those that act annoyed at all the negativity in this thread, too fucking bad. You don't dominate all those worst job rankings with such high pay unless the job is absolute shit.