Fall 2015 OCI Results Forum

[star fox]

Anyone using this thread to make law school decisions is dumb.

lstscorereports.com is all you should be using

[Companion Cube]

I like how this is supposed to be a backpedal but you're actually just digging yourself deeper into your idiot-hole.

Chill out. He's just trying to provide information, which is what the whole point of this thread is about. Frankly, it was surprising to me that top 10% at a T2 school in NYC could still get biglaw.

I am top 20% at T2 in NYC. 6+ callbacks, didn't go to 2 of them and have an offer at V40. Usually if you have great interview skills top 15% should land you something.

Most of the advice on this forum in regard to being tentative about attending T2s is based on the fact that where you will end up in the class is unpredictable. No one has ever disputed that the top of the class at those schools can get big law.

[Anonymous User]

Pretty sure whatever "major market magic" that other anon is talking about literally only applies in NY, and even then I wouldn't trust his fortunate outcome to translate to anyone else's success.

For comparison: the top 10% of kids at UDC are highly unlikely to get biglaw in DC, and even if LST shows some of them landing those jobs, it's a safe bet they're working as contract attorneys. MAYBE the top 10% at American or Catholic has a shot at something, but even then it's a crapshoot. Hell, OCI at GW is still unabashedly awful if you're targeting DC. GULC cracks an awful lot wider, but this "major market" is still really fucking hard to land for anyone coming from any school.

[WokeUpInACar]

Pretty sure whatever "major market magic" that other anon is talking about literally only applies in NY, and even then I wouldn't trust his fortunate outcome to translate to anyone else's success.

For comparison: the top 10% of kids at UDC are highly unlikely to get biglaw in DC, and even if LST shows some of them landing those jobs, it's a safe bet they're working as contract attorneys. MAYBE the top 10% at American or Catholic has a shot at something, but even then it's a crapshoot. Hell, OCI at GW is still unabashedly awful if you're targeting DC. GULC cracks an awful lot wider, but this "major market" is still really fucking hard to land for anyone coming from any school.

Right and like, whatever attributes a place has, like "is in NYC" or whatever, will be REFLECTED IN THE JOB STATS. I just don't understand when people think they have some unique perspective that everyone else hasn't figured out, when there are several years of job statistics available for every school at this point. Seems like everyone outside of the t25 who gets biglaw wants to show why them beating the odds was due to some special knowledge/work ethic/strategy/hustle that separates them from their TTT peers and validates their decision to attend the school they did.

[Anonymous User]

School Range: CCN
Market(s): NYC
Approximate class rank: Median-ish?
Law review: No, secondary journal
Work experience: KJD, legal work in undergrad
IP background: None
Anything else that might have an impact? No
Screening Interviews: 24
Callbacks received: 7
Callbacks accepted: 7
Offers w/vault ranges: 2 (V40, V60)
How many firms just didn't get back with you with a rejection/callback?: 2 screeners, 1 callback (withdrew after about a month when I received a better offer)
Thank-you notes sent: None.

Overall happy with where I ended up, but wonder about my relatively low CB to offer rate.

[jingosaur]

W/r/t the debate going on over the last 2 pages, going to a T2 with the goal of Biglaw is like playing Russian Roulette using a 7 shooter with 6 bullets in the chamber.

[WokeUpInACar]

W/r/t the debate going on over the last 2 pages, going to a T2 with the goal of Biglaw is like playing Russian Roulette using a 7 shooter with 6 bullets in the chamber.

I don't think you understand. I'm going to school in NEW YORK CITY where the jobs flow like wine. LOL dumbasses in flyover states.

[Anonymous User]

School Range: T25
Market(s): NYC/DC
Approximate class rank: top 10%
Law review: Yes
Work experience: K-JD
IP background: None
Anything else that might have an impact? No Ties. Sucky interviewer when it comes to the tough questions, but have been told I still come off as 'very likable.'
Screening Interviews: 35 (two programs)
Callbacks received: 7
Callbacks accepted: 5 (cancelled two DC CBS)
Offers w/vault ranges: 2 (V15, V40) (NYC)
How many firms just didn't get back with you with a rejection/callback?: zero (maybe some of my screeners, I didn't keep track).
Thank-you notes sent: None.

Notes: DC is brutal

[Anonymous User]

School Range: HYS
Market(s): Bay Area
Approximate class rank: Bottom
Law review: No.
Mock Trial/Moot Court: No
Work experience: No
IP background: No
Anything else that might have an impact? No
Screening Interviews: 15
Callbacks received: 3
Callbacks accepted: 3
Offers w/vault ranges: 3 (V40-50 but ranked higher in bay area)
How many firms just didn't get back with you with a rejection/callback?: No Idea
Thank-you notes sent: To all people who gave me a interview during callbacks.

[Anonymous User]

Anon here...

This is not the place for such conversation, as my post was meant for future non top LSAT scorers who still want to be lawyers and not for arguing, so this will be my last word on the subject, and you can call me delusional or an idiot or whatever, that's fine.

I'm not advocating choosing my school over a T14. But many of us, myself included, couldn't get into a T14 (and I took the LSAT 3x fwiw). I wanted to be a lawyer anyway, and almost didn't go to my school--even though I got a full ride--because I came on TLS and read many people saying things like "you won't get biglaw even if you do well at a T2" or "don't go to law school unless you get a T14 you'll regret it when you're jobless in 5 yrs."

Well, I went anyway, mostly because I knew I wouldn't have an insurmountable amount of debt (just living expenses) even if I didn't do well. But I did do well, and had tons of opportunities, and saw that all the top students did too (and again, "top" stretches farther than you would think). So it is possible, even if not probable. And yea, I could have done poorly and would have no chance at big law, but such is life. The full ride helps mitigate fears against such possibilities. Certainly, never go to a T2 without full or close to full ride.

I question whether you read any people on TLS saying those things, let alone "many people."

but yeah dude your main point is both dumb and potentially damaging. I'm all for data and anecdotes and stuff but come on.

No dude.

Think about it, if your LSAT is above a T2's 75th percentile, then you have a decent shot at top 10%, provided that you also work hard. It is not that unpredictable. I go to NYC T2 with full ride, top 1%. I got over 20 screeners, 15 callbacks(cancelled a few) and 8 offers (2 V5, 1 V10, 3 V20, 2 V30). Also, there are less competitions come OCI because the some top students transferred out. I could of transfer to C or N but I didn't because I knew I would get the same amount of screeners and callbacks with my current school minus the debt.

[WokeUpInACar]

Anon here...

This is not the place for such conversation, as my post was meant for future non top LSAT scorers who still want to be lawyers and not for arguing, so this will be my last word on the subject, and you can call me delusional or an idiot or whatever, that's fine.

I'm not advocating choosing my school over a T14. But many of us, myself included, couldn't get into a T14 (and I took the LSAT 3x fwiw). I wanted to be a lawyer anyway, and almost didn't go to my school--even though I got a full ride--because I came on TLS and read many people saying things like "you won't get biglaw even if you do well at a T2" or "don't go to law school unless you get a T14 you'll regret it when you're jobless in 5 yrs."

Well, I went anyway, mostly because I knew I wouldn't have an insurmountable amount of debt (just living expenses) even if I didn't do well. But I did do well, and had tons of opportunities, and saw that all the top students did too (and again, "top" stretches farther than you would think). So it is possible, even if not probable. And yea, I could have done poorly and would have no chance at big law, but such is life. The full ride helps mitigate fears against such possibilities. Certainly, never go to a T2 without full or close to full ride.

I question whether you read any people on TLS saying those things, let alone "many people."

but yeah dude your main point is both dumb and potentially damaging. I'm all for data and anecdotes and stuff but come on.

No dude.

Think about it, if your LSAT is above a T2's 75th percentile, then you have a decent shot at top 10%, provided that you also work hard. It is not that unpredictable. I go to NYC T2 with full ride, top 1%. I got over 20 screeners, 15 callbacks(cancelled a few) and 8 offers (2 V5, 1 V10, 3 V20, 2 V30). Also, there are less competitions come OCI because the some top students transferred out. I could of transfer to C or N but I didn't because I knew I would get the same amount of screeners and callbacks with my current school minus the debt.

[PourMeTea]

Anon here...

This is not the place for such conversation, as my post was meant for future non top LSAT scorers who still want to be lawyers and not for arguing, so this will be my last word on the subject, and you can call me delusional or an idiot or whatever, that's fine.

I'm not advocating choosing my school over a T14. But many of us, myself included, couldn't get into a T14 (and I took the LSAT 3x fwiw). I wanted to be a lawyer anyway, and almost didn't go to my school--even though I got a full ride--because I came on TLS and read many people saying things like "you won't get biglaw even if you do well at a T2" or "don't go to law school unless you get a T14 you'll regret it when you're jobless in 5 yrs."

Well, I went anyway, mostly because I knew I wouldn't have an insurmountable amount of debt (just living expenses) even if I didn't do well. But I did do well, and had tons of opportunities, and saw that all the top students did too (and again, "top" stretches farther than you would think). So it is possible, even if not probable. And yea, I could have done poorly and would have no chance at big law, but such is life. The full ride helps mitigate fears against such possibilities. Certainly, never go to a T2 without full or close to full ride.

I question whether you read any people on TLS saying those things, let alone "many people."

but yeah dude your main point is both dumb and potentially damaging. I'm all for data and anecdotes and stuff but come on.

No dude.

Think about it, if your LSAT is above a T2's 75th percentile, then you have a decent shot at top 10%, provided that you also work hard. It is not that unpredictable. I go to NYC T2 with full ride, top 1%. I got over 20 screeners, 15 callbacks(cancelled a few) and 8 offers (2 V5, 1 V10, 3 V20, 2 V30). Also, there are less competitions come OCI because the some top students transferred out.I could of transfer to C or N but I didn't because I knew I would get the same amount of screeners and callbacks with my current school minus the debt.

[Mack.Hambleton]

No dude.

Think about it, if your LSAT is above a T2's 75th percentile, then you have a decent shot at top 10%, provided that you also work hard. It is not that unpredictable. I go to NYC T2 with full ride, top 1%. I got over 20 screeners, 15 callbacks(cancelled a few) and 8 offers (2 V5, 1 V10, 3 V20, 2 V30). Also, there are less competitions come OCI because the some top students transferred out. I could of transfer to C or N but I didn't because I knew I would get the same amount of screeners and callbacks with my current school minus the debt.

Not sure if troll

[lavarman84]

Anon here...

This is not the place for such conversation, as my post was meant for future non top LSAT scorers who still want to be lawyers and not for arguing, so this will be my last word on the subject, and you can call me delusional or an idiot or whatever, that's fine.

I'm not advocating choosing my school over a T14. But many of us, myself included, couldn't get into a T14 (and I took the LSAT 3x fwiw). I wanted to be a lawyer anyway, and almost didn't go to my school--even though I got a full ride--because I came on TLS and read many people saying things like "you won't get biglaw even if you do well at a T2" or "don't go to law school unless you get a T14 you'll regret it when you're jobless in 5 yrs."

Well, I went anyway, mostly because I knew I wouldn't have an insurmountable amount of debt (just living expenses) even if I didn't do well. But I did do well, and had tons of opportunities, and saw that all the top students did too (and again, "top" stretches farther than you would think). So it is possible, even if not probable. And yea, I could have done poorly and would have no chance at big law, but such is life. The full ride helps mitigate fears against such possibilities. Certainly, never go to a T2 without full or close to full ride.

I'm not calling you out for saying if you do extremely well at a T2, you can get biglaw. I'm calling you out for stating that people who do well at T2s (or T1s) and don't get biglaw just can't interview or are weird or whatever.

NYC is the best market for biglaw jobs. People at T2s and even T1s in other markets won't have the same opportunities you have even if they have top tier grades and credentials. They can still hustle and get biglaw but it's nowhere near as easy as it is for them as it is for you. Your original post was insulting towards those people if they can't secure biglaw.

I like how this is supposed to be a backpedal but you're actually just digging yourself deeper into your idiot-hole.

Chill out. He's just trying to provide information, which is what the whole point of this thread is about. Frankly, it was surprising to me that top 10% at a T2 school in NYC could still get biglaw.

It shouldn't be. Nobody is giving him shit for saying that. I called him out for the way he worded the comment.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Think about it, if your LSAT is above a T2's 75th percentile, then you have a decent shot at top 10%, provided that you also work hard. It is not that unpredictable.

It's great that this worked out for you, but just because it worked out for you doesn't necessarily make it predictable.

[star fox]

It seems pretty logical that people with full rides would outperform on average. If you were placing bets, they'd certainly be the favorites.

Besides nobody is saying you'll get biglaw by going to Cardozo or whatever. Nothing is guaranteed anywhere. This isn't complicated. Just use lstscorereports.com and do what you want. Full ride is great because debt sucks. Again though, do what you want. Some people would pass up a full ride at a lower T14 for the ease and comfort at OCI at HYS, while paying sticker. I think that's crazy, but the data you need is basically there. Be informed. Decide accordingly.

[ManoftheHour]

FWIW, I chose a full ride at a T-1 over decent scholarships at higher ranked schools.

Still don't know if I regret it yet or not (still no jerb but still have interviews coming up). Maybe in an alternate universe, I chose the other school(s) and landed an offer. Or maybe I'd be crying over no jerb AND debt.

[ManoftheHour]

It seems pretty logical that people with full rides would outperform on average. If you were placing bets, they'd certainly be the favorites.

This seems true at my school except in my class. There are 3 people in my class with full rides. I know the other 2 and they're both below median. One dude started doing his memo the day before it was due and asked me which side we were supposed to argue, lol.

[Anonymous User]

T2 Student in Chicago. Near top of class (Top 10-15%), and managed to land big law. And I disagree with just about EVERYTHING NYC T2 anon has said.

I hustled, worked my ass off, got good grades, etc... and still consider myself lucky as hell. The opportunities are simply not the same from a T2. While it is certainly possible to land big law from T2, being at the top of your class guarantees absolutely nothing...

it is very easy to have a good outcome and say "hey - look at me, no brainer, T2 is fine - everyone else do it! you can land biglaw!" The reality is, going to a T2 with the expectation or even hope of landing big law is an enormous risk. While I am happy that it worked out for me, there is absolutely no way I'd make the same decision again.

[Anonymous User]

School Range: T14 transfer from Unranked
Market(s): Bos/NYC
Approximate class rank: top 10% at previous school
Law review: Invited at previous school
Work experience: One year of non-legal work.
IP background: None
Anything else that might have an impact? URM, Bos ties, no NYC ties.
Screening Interviews: 27 (mostly via diversity fairs)
Callbacks received: 9 (4 Bos, 5 NYC)
Callbacks accepted: 8 (cancelled 1 in NYC)
Offers w/vault ranges: 4 (V10 [in a market other than the firm's HQ], V25, V40, N/A)
How many firms just didn't get back with you with a rejection/callback?: 2-4 CBs.
Thank-you notes sent: None.

Notes: Did Boston CBs first, got offers, then did NYC CBs. I'm super happy with where I accepted and probably would have chosen them even if I had received more offers.

[Anonymous User]

As a T2 poster way earlier in this thread, I would echo the above chicago poster. I'm at a school that is not in a big city (relatively close, though), but we have some big firms that come to our OCI. While I was very lucky and happened to land in the top 10%, one bad class could have bumped me off law review, and that could have been a disaster when it came to getting a job. There are highly qualified people here (way more than I) that were top 30% without law review that didn't even get screeners at most firms. It's easy for me to say, "Yeah, law school was a great decision because I took a full-ride at a T2 and got a big law job" because it happened to work out, but I know there was a shit ton of luck involved.

There shouldn't be any 0L's who read this thread because it's a bad sample size of T2 results. For every one kid who gets lucky and lands big law at my school, there are 10 who can't but wanted it. Keep that in mind when applying. And certainly don't assume that because you got a full ride you'll do well in law school -- that's absurd.

[Anonymous User]

I want to add this. I am top 10% at a T2 school and LR in a major secondary market. I am also patent bar eligible with a software background. During my law school application cycle, I was a non-traditional splitter that crushed the LSAT and could have gone to a T14 school (accepted) if I were willing to pay sticker. I was forced to choose between no debt at a T2 vs massive debt at a T14.

I had no illusions about the odds. BigLaw at a T14 was much better odds, but not guaranteed. I decided to play it safe and took the T2 with no debt route. I did believe, at the time, that my odds of making top 10% and LR were much better at a T2, and thought that would help even the odds.

On the far side of the OCI process, this was my takeaway. Yes, I got BigLaw, paying NY market (thanks IP). But if I didn't have a software background, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have made it. Some of my classmates made it too, but I can safely say that the % of people at my school with a big law summer job is somewhere like 3-4%, meaning over half of the top 10% didn't make it. Also, making top 10% at a T2 school was almost certainly easier than making 10% at a T14, but probably not by much. It was the right call for me, because I made BigLaw and managed to do it debt free, but I came pretty close to striking out and making T2 the wrong choice.

I'm sure that's not everyone's experience. I'm sure there are 2 or 3 people every year at my school that has great grades and interviews so well that they are getting as many offers as people from a T-14 interviewing in the same market, but I wasn't one of them, and neither were the mass majority of people in the top 10% of my school. Most of us that made it squeaked in, and the tiny margin of error was terrifying.

[lavarman84]

I want to add this. I am top 10% at a T2 school and LR in a major secondary market. I am also patent bar eligible with a software background. During my law school application cycle, I was a non-traditional splitter that crushed the LSAT and could have gone to a T14 school (accepted) if I were willing to pay sticker. I was forced to choose between no debt at a T2 vs massive debt at a T14.

I had no illusions about the odds. BigLaw at a T14 was much better odds, but not guaranteed. I decided to play it safe and took the T2 with no debt route. I did believe, at the time, that my odds of making top 10% and LR were much better at a T2, and thought that would help even the odds.

On the far side of the OCI process, this was my takeaway. Yes, I got BigLaw, paying NY market (thanks IP). But if I didn't have a software background, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have made it. Some of my classmates made it too, but I can safely say that the % of people at my school with a big law summer job is somewhere like 3-4%, meaning over half of the top 10% didn't make it. Also, making top 10% at a T2 school was almost certainly easier than making 10% at a T14, but probably not by much. It was the right call for me, because I made BigLaw and managed to do it debt free, but I came pretty close to striking out and making T2 the wrong choice.

I'm sure that's not everyone's experience. I'm sure there are 2 or 3 people every year at my school that has great grades and interviews so well that they are getting as many offers as people from a T-14 interviewing in the same market, but I wasn't one of them, and neither were the mass majority of people in the top 10% of my school. Most of us that made it squeaked in, and the tiny margin of error was terrifying.

I had the same experience at a T1. I'm sure being at a NYC school makes a big difference when it comes to biglaw so that should be considered.(although, real employment stats > all) But I only know a handful of people in my class that have locked up biglaw right now. It's rough.

And our OCI barely had any V50 firms. I had to mass mail to get my V5/V10 interviews.(something I wouldn't have known to do without TLS)

It's very risky outside of the t14.

[Anonymous User]

School Range: T14
Market(s): Bos/NYC
Approximate class rank: Top 40%
Law review: Secondary journal
Work experience: Two years, non legal
IP background: None
Anything else that might have an impact? No great NYC ties, didn't have a strong "Why NYC?" answer
Screening Interviews: 23
Callbacks received: 9
Callbacks accepted: 9
Offers w/vault ranges: 1 V20, 1 V50
How many firms just didn't get back with you with a rejection/callback?: None
Thank-you notes sent: Yes

Did anyone else have an exceptionally bad cb -> offer ratio? 1 of my 2 offers came more than 2 weeks after my cb. Some cbs went better than others, but I didn't feel like they went much differently than screeners. I got dinged from 2 I thought I knocked out of the park and was solidly qualified for.

[Anonymous User]

School Range: MVPD
Market(s): DC, Boston, Detroit
Approximate class rank: Top 25%
Law review: Secondary journal.
Work experience: Several years.
IP background: Engineering degree, worked in patents.
Anything else that might have an impact? Strong ties to all three markets.
Screening Interviews: 40 (10 at PLIP, 29 on campus, 1 at the firm after a hospitality suite resume drop).
Callbacks received: 14 (1 from a Symplicity Resume Collect).
Callbacks accepted: 12
Offers w/vault ranges: 3 V50, 5 total.
How many firms just didn't get back with you with a rejection/callback?: Three or four. I had to badger the fuck out of a couple, though.
Thank-you notes sent: Yes, to most.