2014 University of Virginia OGI Thread Forum

[sprezz]

I was wondering if anyone has info about the prospects of a candidate that doesn't work as a summer associate after 2L. For reference, my grades are about at the median, maybe a tick below or above. I took a year off between UG and law school, but nothing great as far as WE goes.

I am working in a US Attorney's Office this summer and really enjoy it. I plan to apply to some jobs at DOJ and another USAO for next summer in addition to doing OGI and mass mailing. The NALP pages I have looked at, however, seem to suggest that it is rare for a firm to hire an entry-level candidate who hadn't been a SA. Does working as something other than a SA really ding my odds of getting a firm job after graduation? Would I be similarly disadvantaged if I get a SA gig and want to work at a different firm and/or a differnt office of the same firm?

again, the general disadvantage here isn't a "oh this guy didn't do firm work, let's put him behind the stack of people who did firm work" -- it's that in general, if you want to work for a firm, you are WAY more likely to get it through the SA route than any other route. the vast majority of the firm jobs that "buy high" on your T14 credentials are going to play the T14 hiring game, which means they're filling those slots up with their 2L recruiting because that's how the game is played. so if you're thinking vault whatever NYC/DC is your #1 option post grad, i would gun for it now, and it's objectively dumb not to. given your grades, you're more likely to get an SA now than a 3L offer later. but at the same time, if you don't get an acceptable firm job for your goals the first summer and would prefer a DOJ or whatever to your firm options, don't feel like you have to go to a firm you don't like to have a shot at other firms. the main opportunity cost is the 90%+ chance you're waived into the job you want after the summer (plus summer salary etc whatever).

now, there is a caveat that you'll want to present a cohesive story as to why you did what you did and how it took you to applying to a firm job later. e.g. "i always wanted to work at a firm!" after doing internship at public defender = weird. "i am really interested in practice group ____ which i got exposed to while working for _____" = there you go

[Anonymous User]

Assuming that your stats are good, would it be a terrible idea to only use 35-40 bids at OGI? I have exhausted the markets that I am interested in and am wondering if it is worth the effort to write cover letters for more firms.

Would it be smarter to just throw in some bids in major markets to complete the list? I don't want to bid multiple offices in cities that I am not interested in just to hit 50 (unless the firms don't care?).

[5ky]

Assuming that your stats are good, would it be a terrible idea to only use 35-40 bids at OGI? I have exhausted the markets that I am interested in and am wondering if it is worth the effort to write cover letters for more firms.

Would it be smarter to just throw in some bids in major markets to complete the list? I don't want to bid multiple offices in cities that I am not interested in just to hit 50 (unless the firms don't care?).

you have 50 bids. use them.

smdh, smdh

[Anonymous User]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone noticed discrepancies between what firms put in symplicity as far as grade requirements and the bands in which they are listed on the chart? I was going through my bid list and noticed that Reed smith was listed as a band 3, while their symplicity notes that they look for top 15%.

[sundance95]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone noticed discrepancies between what firms put in symplicity as far as grade requirements and the bands in which they are listed on the chart? I was going through my bid list and noticed that Reed smith was listed as a band 3, while their symplicity notes that they look for top 15%.

Firms are lying liars who lie. Go with what KD says.

[feelingood16]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone noticed discrepancies between what firms put in symplicity as far as grade requirements and the bands in which they are listed on the chart? I was going through my bid list and noticed that Reed smith was listed as a band 3, while their symplicity notes that they look for top 15%.

Firms are lying liars who lie. Go with what KD says.

I actually asked KD about this, and he said that he's asked the firms to stop claiming a "top 15%" requirement when they actually call back well bellow that, but they won't. He mentioned that it might be a prestige thing. The firm markets itself as highly selective, and so it keeps that as a false requirement. So yes, just go with what KD says and bid anyway.

[Anonymous User]

Assuming that your stats are good, would it be a terrible idea to only use 35-40 bids at OGI? I have exhausted the markets that I am interested in and am wondering if it is worth the effort to write cover letters for more firms.

Would it be smarter to just throw in some bids in major markets to complete the list? I don't want to bid multiple offices in cities that I am not interested in just to hit 50 (unless the firms don't care?).

There is absolutely no reason not to use all 50 bids. This is your career we're talking about. If you only bid 35 and for some reason didn't end up with an offer, wouldn't you regret not spending a few more hours for the 15 extra bids? Also, which markets are you interested in? If you've used them all up within 35 bids, I'm guessing they're secondary markets, which certainly aren't a sure thing since SA classes are smaller. Throw some bids into NY for good measure.

[olive16]

Firms are lying liars who lie. Go with what KD says.

This, one-thousand times this.

[Marshallian]

For firms that ask us to bring copies of our material to interviews, which transcript should we use? Just the one on Symplicity but printed out?

[olive16]

For firms that ask us to bring copies of our material to interviews, which transcript should we use? Just the one on Symplicity but printed out?

Yes.

[Yardbird]

How soon after the bid deadline should we mass mail firms we didn't bid on?

[DellE6500]

I've been going over my cover letters with a fine-toothed comb. Does anyone have an opinion as to when, if ever, it is appropriate to refer to a firm by an abbreviated name? i.e. Starting with "i'm applying for a SA position at Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom" and later on saying "XYZ experience makes me confident that I can be a productive summer associate at Skadden." Some of the names are pretty cumbersome, and IDK to what extent formality should carry the day, and what abbreviated names would be appropriate.

[Anonymous User]

Is a 3.2X a GPA I should be ashamed enough of to leave off my resume?

If I had a pretty good Spring GPA, should I just do some smoke and mirrors like

1L Spring GPA: 3.4X


(yeah, dealing in rotten potatoes here)

[daleearnhardt123]

Is a 3.2X a GPA I should be ashamed enough of to leave off my resume?

If I had a pretty good Spring GPA, should I just do some smoke and mirrors like

1L Spring GPA: 3.4X


(yeah, dealing in rotten potatoes here)

The fact that you're even asking this is concerning. 1. Leave it off, without question. 2. Is this serious? How much more plainly could you convey to an employer that you are trying to pull the wool over their eyes?

[Anonymous User]

Is a 3.2X a GPA I should be ashamed enough of to leave off my resume?

If I had a pretty good Spring GPA, should I just do some smoke and mirrors like

1L Spring GPA: 3.4X


(yeah, dealing in rotten potatoes here)

The fact that you're even asking this is concerning. 1. Leave it off, without question. 2. Is this serious? How much more plainly could you convey to an employer that you are trying to pull the wool over their eyes?

What about doing something like:

Cumulative GPA: 3.2x
1L Spring GPA: 3.4x

That would show that there is improvement. Or would it be better to just leave GPA off the resume entirely?

[Anonymous User]

I've been going over my cover letters with a fine-toothed comb. Does anyone have an opinion as to when, if ever, it is appropriate to refer to a firm by an abbreviated name? i.e. Starting with "i'm applying for a SA position at Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom" and later on saying "XYZ experience makes me confident that I can be a productive summer associate at Skadden." Some of the names are pretty cumbersome, and IDK to what extent formality should carry the day, and what abbreviated names would be appropriate.

You've got it exactly right. Spell it out with all of the ridiculous names the first time you use it in the body of the letter, then you can use an abbreviated name later. Just make sure it's one that the firm really uses. Like Skadden refers to itself as Skadden in its own materials plenty (for example, http://www.skadden.com/news-events/skad ... a-rankings). But they'd probably chuckle if you abbreviated it "Skadden, Arps, Slate"

[Anonymous User]

Is a 3.2X a GPA I should be ashamed enough of to leave off my resume?

If I had a pretty good Spring GPA, should I just do some smoke and mirrors like

1L Spring GPA: 3.4X


(yeah, dealing in rotten potatoes here)

The fact that you're even asking this is concerning. 1. Leave it off, without question. 2. Is this serious? How much more plainly could you convey to an employer that you are trying to pull the wool over their eyes?

This actually raises the question of when GPA should go on your resume at all. Should you add it if you are above median? What about 3.4, 3.5, 3.65? None of the CS material even addresses the issue and their sample resumes do not include it.

[Anonymous User]

Is a 3.2X a GPA I should be ashamed enough of to leave off my resume?

If I had a pretty good Spring GPA, should I just do some smoke and mirrors like

1L Spring GPA: 3.4X


(yeah, dealing in rotten potatoes here)

The fact that you're even asking this is concerning. 1. Leave it off, without question. 2. Is this serious? How much more plainly could you convey to an employer that you are trying to pull the wool over their eyes?

What about doing something like:

Cumulative GPA: 3.2x
1L Spring GPA: 3.4x

That would show that there is improvement. Or would it be better to just leave GPA off the resume entirely?

They are going to see your transcript. They will know the cumulative and they will be able to see the improvement. Just leave it off completely. Never ever bring up your grades on your own in an interview. When they ask you about it (they might or might not, but be ready), then it's totally appropriate to say "Well, my first semester I felt like I was adjusting to the rigors of law school and learning what study techniques worked for me. I improved significantly in my second semester, and I am looking forward to continuing to apply the strategies that I've been finding have worked for me in the coming semesters."

[hoorahray]

Is a 3.2X a GPA I should be ashamed enough of to leave off my resume?

If I had a pretty good Spring GPA, should I just do some smoke and mirrors like

1L Spring GPA: 3.4X


(yeah, dealing in rotten potatoes here)

The fact that you're even asking this is concerning. 1. Leave it off, without question. 2. Is this serious? How much more plainly could you convey to an employer that you are trying to pull the wool over their eyes?

This actually raises the question of when GPA should go on your resume at all. Should you add it if you are above median? What about 3.4, 3.5, 3.65? None of the CS material even addresses the issue and their sample resumes do not include it.

Median and up is the cutoff I generally see the most.

[daleearnhardt123]

Is a 3.2X a GPA I should be ashamed enough of to leave off my resume?

If I had a pretty good Spring GPA, should I just do some smoke and mirrors like

1L Spring GPA: 3.4X


(yeah, dealing in rotten potatoes here)

The fact that you're even asking this is concerning. 1. Leave it off, without question. 2. Is this serious? How much more plainly could you convey to an employer that you are trying to pull the wool over their eyes?

This actually raises the question of when GPA should go on your resume at all. Should you add it if you are above median? What about 3.4, 3.5, 3.65? None of the CS material even addresses the issue and their sample resumes do not include it.

My year, OCS Suggested something like >3.5. I would disagree and say nothing beneath VLR cut-off though. For 1. The firm will always see your grades. But 2. In my opinion, you only want an in-your-face reminder for them if you know your GPA is above the AVERAGE (not the floor ) of what they're seeing. For a 3.5 this will often not be true, especially if you bid aggressively.

[Anonymous User]

This actually raises the question of when GPA should go on your resume at all. Should you add it if you are above median? What about 3.4, 3.5, 3.65? None of the CS material even addresses the issue and their sample resumes do not include it.

Median and up is the cutoff I generally see the most.

Is there any harm from just leaving it off entirely? Are firms going to assume my grades are crap if I don't include it? I'm above median, but I don't want to have to edit all of my resumes. I know it doesn't matter for OCI because they have transcripts, but what about handing out resumes at hospitality suites and the like?

[daleearnhardt123]

This actually raises the question of when GPA should go on your resume at all. Should you add it if you are above median? What about 3.4, 3.5, 3.65? None of the CS material even addresses the issue and their sample resumes do not include it.

Median and up is the cutoff I generally see the most.

Is there any harm from just leaving it off entirely? Are firms going to assume my grades are crap if I don't include it? I'm above median, but I don't want to have to edit all of my resumes. I know it doesn't matter for OCI because they have transcripts, but what about handing out resumes at hospitality suites and the like?

Hospitality suites are probably an exception to any general rules here . If a firm doesn't know your grades they aren't going to be reaching out to you.

[WahooLaw24]

I've been going over my cover letters with a fine-toothed comb. Does anyone have an opinion as to when, if ever, it is appropriate to refer to a firm by an abbreviated name? i.e. Starting with "i'm applying for a SA position at Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom" and later on saying "XYZ experience makes me confident that I can be a productive summer associate at Skadden." Some of the names are pretty cumbersome, and IDK to what extent formality should carry the day, and what abbreviated names would be appropriate.

You've got it exactly right. Spell it out with all of the ridiculous names the first time you use it in the body of the letter, then you can use an abbreviated name later. Just make sure it's one that the firm really uses. Like Skadden refers to itself as Skadden in its own materials plenty (for example, http://www.skadden.com/news-events/skad ... a-rankings). But they'd probably chuckle if you abbreviated it "Skadden, Arps, Slate"

Would you include an LLP or something similar the first time you mention a firm in the body of a letter? I was actually planning on just going with say "Gibson Dunn" as I thought that sounded a lot less clunky and form like than the full thing, but maybe I'll re-think that now.

[pertristis]

I've been going over my cover letters with a fine-toothed comb. Does anyone have an opinion as to when, if ever, it is appropriate to refer to a firm by an abbreviated name? i.e. Starting with "i'm applying for a SA position at Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom" and later on saying "XYZ experience makes me confident that I can be a productive summer associate at Skadden." Some of the names are pretty cumbersome, and IDK to what extent formality should carry the day, and what abbreviated names would be appropriate.

You've got it exactly right. Spell it out with all of the ridiculous names the first time you use it in the body of the letter, then you can use an abbreviated name later. Just make sure it's one that the firm really uses. Like Skadden refers to itself as Skadden in its own materials plenty (for example, http://www.skadden.com/news-events/skad ... a-rankings). But they'd probably chuckle if you abbreviated it "Skadden, Arps, Slate"

Would you include an LLP or something similar the first time you mention a firm in the body of a letter? I was actually planning on just going with say "Gibson Dunn" as I thought that sounded a lot less clunky and form like than the full thing, but maybe I'll re-think that now.

I put the whole name in the first in-text mention, and then used the short name afterward.

And just wait until you have an interview with MoFo, and you try to figure out if it's cool to call the firm "MoFo" out loud.

[Anonymous User]

I would highly recommend talking with KD if you have time tomorrow. He was very quickly able to tell me that my bid list was great for the most part, and he easily pointed out firms that I basically have no chance at because of GPA floors he can see on his end (I won't reveal any since that's data they haven't released).

Ever so slightly above median for what its worth.