Lawyers tell you how to get no offered. Forum

[Danger Zone]

crap, i was planning on using the backpack i used in lawschool for the summer, is this a bad idea? do i need to buy a professional looking bag or suitcase or something?

It really doesn't matter. If you feel awkward about your backpack, you can go ahead and get a nicer bag.

[Old Gregg]

My two cents on the blacklining question (corporate associate in NYC biglaw):

1) No one expects you to know how to do it before you start.

2) Many associates won't bother to teach you as a summer (as others said, it takes some time to teach and that time can be better spent, especially in the middle of a deal, on the associate running the blackline on their own).

3) **If an associate takes the time to teach the program to you (I try to make it a point to go over it with any summer that will be on a full deal with me), make sure you take the time to a) pay attention, b) ask questions if you're confused, c) PRACTICE on your own until you get the hang of it and d) don't screw it up after you've confirmed to me you get it. If you don't get it, that's fine, just tell me and I can help you when I have time, but once you say you got it, you better own it. There is nothing I hate more than someone lying to me by saying they can do something, just to have them screw it up over and over while I waste time waiting for it. If you don't get it, just tell me, I won't care, but DO NOT waste my time. I'm busy.**

I'm sorry, but how fucking stupid do you have to be to not know how to use a blackline program?

[84651846190]

My two cents on the blacklining question (corporate associate in NYC biglaw):

1) No one expects you to know how to do it before you start.

2) Many associates won't bother to teach you as a summer (as others said, it takes some time to teach and that time can be better spent, especially in the middle of a deal, on the associate running the blackline on their own).

3) **If an associate takes the time to teach the program to you (I try to make it a point to go over it with any summer that will be on a full deal with me), make sure you take the time to a) pay attention, b) ask questions if you're confused, c) PRACTICE on your own until you get the hang of it and d) don't screw it up after you've confirmed to me you get it. If you don't get it, that's fine, just tell me and I can help you when I have time, but once you say you got it, you better own it. There is nothing I hate more than someone lying to me by saying they can do something, just to have them screw it up over and over while I waste time waiting for it. If you don't get it, just tell me, I won't care, but DO NOT waste my time. I'm busy.**

I'm sorry, but how fucking stupid do you have to be to not know how to use a blackline program?

Also, why the fuck would an associate take the time to teach you the program? Don't all firms have IT guys who can do this kind of shit. Hell, I think my legal secretary could even do this.

[Old Gregg]

My two cents on the blacklining question (corporate associate in NYC biglaw):

1) No one expects you to know how to do it before you start.

2) Many associates won't bother to teach you as a summer (as others said, it takes some time to teach and that time can be better spent, especially in the middle of a deal, on the associate running the blackline on their own).

3) **If an associate takes the time to teach the program to you (I try to make it a point to go over it with any summer that will be on a full deal with me), make sure you take the time to a) pay attention, b) ask questions if you're confused, c) PRACTICE on your own until you get the hang of it and d) don't screw it up after you've confirmed to me you get it. If you don't get it, that's fine, just tell me and I can help you when I have time, but once you say you got it, you better own it. There is nothing I hate more than someone lying to me by saying they can do something, just to have them screw it up over and over while I waste time waiting for it. If you don't get it, just tell me, I won't care, but DO NOT waste my time. I'm busy.**

I'm sorry, but how fucking stupid do you have to be to not know how to use a blackline program?

Also, why the fuck would an associate take the time to teach you the program? Don't all firms have IT guys who can do this kind of shit. Hell, I think my legal secretary could even do this.

Yes. Why is it even a good use of someone whose time costs $500+/hour to run redlines??? Precisely what an assistant should be doing.

[rayiner]

Associates run black lines because it would take longer and be more error-prone to explain to a secretary which versions to use than it would be to do it yourself. Moreover, the associate can sanity check the black line because he should have a good idea of what changed. The secretary can't.

[crit_racer]

Associates run black lines because it would take longer and be more error-prone to explain to a secretary which versions to use than it would be to do it yourself. Moreover, the associate can sanity check the black line because he should have a good idea of what changed. The secretary can't.

Also it only takes a few minutes so what's the big deal? It's not like youre spending an hour or 2 running fucking blacklines...

[Old Gregg]

Associates run black lines because it would take longer and be more error-prone to explain to a secretary which versions to use than it would be to do it yourself. Moreover, the associate can sanity check the black line because he should have a good idea of what changed. The secretary can't.

It might take longer... the one off blackline I'll do. But for batches... that goes to my assistant.

It's not that error prone. Just tell him or her what versions to use. I don't see what's hard about this.

[Old Gregg]

Associates run black lines because it would take longer and be more error-prone to explain to a secretary which versions to use than it would be to do it yourself. Moreover, the associate can sanity check the black line because he should have a good idea of what changed. The secretary can't.

Also it only takes a few minutes so what's the big deal? It's not like youre spending an hour or 2 running fucking blacklines...

Depends. Are you on a deal where all the docs need to be dated and turned into execution versions? If so, some opposing counsels will want redlines to make sure nothing of substance was changed. In that case, you're running 30 redlines and it could turn into an our or two of just keeping things straight.

[DELG]

Associates run black lines because it would take longer and be more error-prone to explain to a secretary which versions to use than it would be to do it yourself. Moreover, the associate can sanity check the black line because he should have a good idea of what changed. The secretary can't.

It might take longer... the one off blackline I'll do. But for batches... that goes to my assistant.

It's not that error prone. Just tell him or her what versions to use. I don't see what's hard about this.

Depends on the assistant.

[MCFC]

So I realize this is a stupid question on a variety of levels, but is there a go-to non-alcoholic beverage that is acceptable to be drinking at summer events, dinners, etc.? I usually just order water when I go out to eat. Is that weird/awkward?

[09042014]

So I realize this is a stupid question on a variety of levels, but is there a go-to non-alcoholic beverage that is acceptable to be drinking at summer events, dinners, etc.? I usually just order water when I go out to eat. Is that weird/awkward?

Water is fine. But so is alcohol.

[Anonymous User]

They didn't have to wonder why you didn't fit. They probably just thought, "Welp, that guy was an asshole" and erased you from their memory. The narcissistic distortion of your "social justice" campaign is some of the dumbest shit I've read on this site.

No offered anon here. Are you actually claiming that a firm that only brings in 1-2 SA's per year would give no thought into why an SA that they interviewed, liked, and selected as their only SA for a year was unhappy at their firm yet excelled at a similar, competing firm? This isn't a firm with a huge summer program. I know it's cool to be cynical and whatnot, but it's bad business for firms to fail to recruit and retain qualified attorneys. I know that firm is still looking to hire 2 associates and also lost 15% of their partners in the past year. Of course they want to know why they are having problems, unless we assume they are total idiots with no sense of self-preservation. Not like one SA experience is going to change their entire business model (I never claimed it would, strawmen aside), but it can be a factor.

[DELG]

They didn't have to wonder why you didn't fit. They probably just thought, "Welp, that guy was an asshole" and erased you from their memory. The narcissistic distortion of your "social justice" campaign is some of the dumbest shit I've read on this site.

No offered anon here. Are you actually claiming that a firm that only brings in 1-2 SA's per year would give no thought into why an SA that they interviewed, liked, and selected as their only SA for a year was unhappy at their firm yet excelled at a similar, competing firm? This isn't a firm with a huge summer program. I know it's cool to be cynical and whatnot, but it's bad business for firms to fail to recruit and retain qualified attorneys. I know that firm is still looking to hire 2 associates and also lost 15% of their partners in the past year. Of course they want to know why they are having problems, unless we assume they are total idiots with no sense of self-preservation. Not like one SA experience is going to change their entire business model (I never claimed it would, strawmen aside), but it can be a factor.

I seriously doubt any one partner, let alone an entire committee, has anywhere near this capacity for introspection.

Connecting partner defections with SA experience sounds... wrong

[Anonymous User]

So I realize this is a stupid question on a variety of levels, but is there a go-to non-alcoholic beverage that is acceptable to be drinking at summer events, dinners, etc.? I usually just order water when I go out to eat. Is that weird/awkward?

If you don't drink in general, I normally order water at meals and sodas at bars.

If you order a sprite at dinner when everyone's ordering scotch, it kind of flags you. However, if you order a water, people just assume that you are doing it for health or pallet reasons. Its a little more complicated with wine (since its considered healthier and is matched with food), but if they order a bottle, you can just not drink yours if you don't want to generate attention.

If you have a coke (or Red bull) in your hand at the bar when everyone else has beer or booze, strangers won't notice or care.

[Old Gregg]

So I realize this is a stupid question on a variety of levels, but is there a go-to non-alcoholic beverage that is acceptable to be drinking at summer events, dinners, etc.? I usually just order water when I go out to eat. Is that weird/awkward?

This isn't stupid. However, if you have no principled reason for not drinking (i.e., health or religion, etc.), get a beer or a glass of wine and nurse it for the night.

[Anonymous User]

They didn't have to wonder why you didn't fit. They probably just thought, "Welp, that guy was an asshole" and erased you from their memory. The narcissistic distortion of your "social justice" campaign is some of the dumbest shit I've read on this site.

No offered anon here. Are you actually claiming that a firm that only brings in 1-2 SA's per year would give no thought into why an SA that they interviewed, liked, and selected as their only SA for a year was unhappy at their firm yet excelled at a similar, competing firm? This isn't a firm with a huge summer program. I know it's cool to be cynical and whatnot, but it's bad business for firms to fail to recruit and retain qualified attorneys. I know that firm is still looking to hire 2 associates and also lost 15% of their partners in the past year. Of course they want to know why they are having problems, unless we assume they are total idiots with no sense of self-preservation. Not like one SA experience is going to change their entire business model (I never claimed it would, strawmen aside), but it can be a factor.

I seriously doubt any one partner, let alone an entire committee, has anywhere near this capacity for introspection.

Connecting partner defections with SA experience sounds... wrong

In the biglaw model, it certainly sounds wrong. But this firm's partner to associate rate is 4.5:1. That is, nearly five partners per associate. Combined with just having 1-2 summers, that means they invest a lot more in each associate and, consequently, each SA. Introspection may be a lot to ask, but business analysis probably isn't if the partners feel the bottom line is being affected.

[BelugaWhale]

So I realize this is a stupid question on a variety of levels, but is there a go-to non-alcoholic beverage that is acceptable to be drinking at summer events, dinners, etc.? I usually just order water when I go out to eat. Is that weird/awkward?

This isn't stupid. However, if you have no principled reason for not drinking (i.e., health or religion, etc.), get a beer or a glass of wine and nurse it for the night.

Get a club soda with lime. It'll look like gin tonic which is a generally safe drink

[El Pollito]

They didn't have to wonder why you didn't fit. They probably just thought, "Welp, that guy was an asshole" and erased you from their memory. The narcissistic distortion of your "social justice" campaign is some of the dumbest shit I've read on this site.

No offered anon here. Are you actually claiming that a firm that only brings in 1-2 SA's per year would give no thought into why an SA that they interviewed, liked, and selected as their only SA for a year was unhappy at their firm yet excelled at a similar, competing firm? This isn't a firm with a huge summer program. I know it's cool to be cynical and whatnot, but it's bad business for firms to fail to recruit and retain qualified attorneys. I know that firm is still looking to hire 2 associates and also lost 15% of their partners in the past year. Of course they want to know why they are having problems, unless we assume they are total idiots with no sense of self-preservation. Not like one SA experience is going to change their entire business model (I never claimed it would, strawmen aside), but it can be a factor.

I seriously doubt any one partner, let alone an entire committee, has anywhere near this capacity for introspection.

Connecting partner defections with SA experience sounds... wrong

In the biglaw model, it certainly sounds wrong. But this firm's partner to associate rate is 4.5:1. That is, nearly five partners per associate. Combined with just having 1-2 summers, that means they invest a lot more in each associate and, consequently, each SA. Introspection may be a lot to ask, but business analysis probably isn't if the partners feel the bottom line is being affected.

Ok special snowflake.

[DELG]

It sounds wrong anywhere. Having summers bail is a very minor deal.

Also, here is the logic chain you are assuming.

"Man that guy was a shit summer! Wait, do we suck?! Woah, we sorta do! Let's change our culture, stat."

[09042014]

They aren't going to think THEY failed you. They are going to think you were (or really know) that you are a raging shitstain.

OH man that summer was a dickstain. BETTER LATERAL.

[Anonymous User]

It sounds wrong anywhere. Having summers bail is a very minor deal.

(same no-offered anon here)

Says who? Just last week a partner at our firm was lamenting losing a summer associate who chose a different firm... in 2009! He just made partner at the other firm and generated some discussion. Partners also occasionally comment how the firm dodged a bullet by no-offering a summer who had some ethical charges recently. The point is that I would be careful about applying NYC assumptions about summer associates to firms that have between 10 and 75 attorneys and are not in primary or secondary markets. They might be more invested in their summers than you think. But what do I know, I'm only a practicing attorney who talks to partners about these things.

Anyway, I don't like arguing as anon, and I'm not outing myself, so this is probably roughly the end of the road. Take it or leave it, but I can guarantee you that there are plenty of small firms who feel strongly invested in their summer associates.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I'm sure lots of firms feel invested in their associates. But if someone doesn't work out and gets no-offered (especially if you really pulled the stuff you describe yourself as pulling), they're not going to say, how did our summer program go wrong? They're going to say, how can we interview better to ensure we don't make a hiring mistake like that guy?

[Anonymous User]

I'm sure lots of firms feel invested in their associates. But if someone doesn't work out and gets no-offered (especially if you really pulled the stuff you describe yourself as pulling), they're not going to say, how did our summer program go wrong? They're going to say, how can we interview better to ensure we don't make a hiring mistake like that guy?

(no-offered anon here)

I also find that to be the most likely outcome, hence why careful readers will note that I described my sense of vigilante justice over this as "inane" in the initial post, thus acknowledging it was silly and probably fruitless, but I'm also kind of like:



(I will also admit to a little schadenfreude over the recent partner defections there.)

edit: The kicker is that the managing partner of the no-offering firm told an attorney, who he didn't know to be my close personal friend, that I was "very likable" but "just didn't seem to want to practice there." How I managed to be likable, I have no idea. I apparently need to try to be an asshole all the time.

[Caesar Salad]

I apparently need to try to be an asshole all the time.

Something tells me you don't have to try.

[DELG]

I'm sure lots of firms feel invested in their associates. But if someone doesn't work out and gets no-offered (especially if you really pulled the stuff you describe yourself as pulling), they're not going to say, how did our summer program go wrong? They're going to say, how can we interview better to ensure we don't make a hiring mistake like that guy?

(no-offered anon here)

I also find that to be the most likely outcome, hence why careful readers will note that I described my sense of vigilante justice over this as "inane" in the initial post, thus acknowledging it was silly and probably fruitless, but I'm also kind of like:

(I will also admit to a little schadenfreude over the recent partner defections there.)

edit: The kicker is that the managing partner of the no-offering firm told an attorney, who he didn't know to be my close personal friend, that I was "very likable" but "just didn't seem to want to practice there." How I managed to be likable, I have no idea. I apparently need to try to be an asshole all the time.

If this is trolling, you deserve an award, because I really think you're a remarkable fuckhead.