Inside: New York V100 statistics by law school Forum

[canceled02062010]

actually the NLJ does this study based on the NLJ250 law firms, it is the 2008 Law School Hiring survey and available on http://www.almresearchonline.com for $200 or something like that. my law firm has a premium membership so all the reports are free... i went ahead and downloaded it. probably not something I can legally share cuz its owned and copyrighted by Incisive Intelligence LLC, but if your firm has a subscription you should go take a look. it's pretty comprehensive, covers all associate hirings by NLJ250 firms from most US Law Schools, and rate of promotion to partner, etc.

edit: it costs $250 without membership

Can you comment on the OP's accuracy for the NY region?

[edgarderby]

edgar, vault doesn't measure firm size; it measures "prestige" (no matter how elusive the term is). Chambers is good for individual departments (so we know, for instance, that Paul Weiss is just as good as some V5s if litigation is your goal). However, overall, Chambers tends to correspond with Vault.

Additionally, Chambers would include firms that probably don't make a significant difference in determining strength of biglaw placement. For example, I don't think it's hugely beneficial to know, for the purpose of statistics, how many students placed in Bartlit Beck, Susman Godfrey, Ivins Phillips, Keker, etc.

For the regional firms I applied to, hardly any were on vault but all were good for chambers, and all were among the biggest in their respective states.

I remember reading somewhere an indictment of Vault in that it was skewed heavily towards size and profits per partner, or some other attribute the author didn't think was very informative for rankings.

[adamlippes]

edgar, vault doesn't measure firm size; it measures "prestige" (no matter how elusive the term is). Chambers is good for individual departments (so we know, for instance, that Paul Weiss is just as good as some V5s if litigation is your goal). However, overall, Chambers tends to correspond with Vault.

Additionally, Chambers would include firms that probably don't make a significant difference in determining strength of biglaw placement. For example, I don't think it's hugely beneficial to know, for the purpose of statistics, how many students placed in Bartlit Beck, Susman Godfrey, Ivins Phillips, Keker, etc.

For the regional firms I applied to, hardly any were on vault but all were good for chambers, and all were among the biggest in their respective states.

I remember reading somewhere an indictment of Vault in that it was skewed heavily towards size and profits per partner, or some other attribute the author didn't think was very informative for rankings.

The discrepancy could also be explained by the fact that regional firms aren't really that "prestigious."

I don't know what vault's methodology is, other than that it manages to seem less scientific than the methodology used to adjudicate between contestants on American's Next Top Model.

I will say, though, how it's so odd that the nation's healthiest firms are concentrated toward the top of the rankings. Wachtell? SullCrom? DavisPolk? Cleary? Debevoise? Paul Weiss? Simpson Thacher? Covington? W&C? They're all V20.

[irie]

actually the NLJ does this study based on the NLJ250 law firms, it is the 2008 Law School Hiring survey and available on http://www.almresearchonline.com for $200 or something like that. my law firm has a premium membership so all the reports are free... i went ahead and downloaded it. probably not something I can legally share cuz its owned and copyrighted by Incisive Intelligence LLC, but if your firm has a subscription you should go take a look. it's pretty comprehensive, covers all associate hirings by NLJ250 firms from most US Law Schools, and rate of promotion to partner, etc.

edit: it costs $250 without membership

Can you comment on the OP's accuracy for the NY region?

sorry, should've made myself more clear. the study only covers the "total 1st year associates hired by a given firm from a given school in 2008." it includes pretty much all the top 100 schools and their subsequent placements at top 30 US based law firms (by revenue), but on a national level. it is useless for determining regional figures, so OP's manual research is actually your best bet for looking at the NYC metro region. off the top of my head I can't think of any reports that would cover this on a per-year level. the closest we'll get is by looking at the firm websites one by one, and the associates/partners' graduation year... which will take forever.

haha maybe another project for another day. this is great stuff tho Fooz! thanks so much for sharing

[jrobby6]

actually the NLJ does this study based on the NLJ250 law firms, it is the 2008 Law School Hiring survey and available on http://www.almresearchonline.com for $200 or something like that. my law firm has a premium membership so all the reports are free... i went ahead and downloaded it. probably not something I can legally share cuz its owned and copyrighted by Incisive Intelligence LLC, but if your firm has a subscription you should go take a look. it's pretty comprehensive, covers all associate hirings by NLJ250 firms from most US Law Schools, and rate of promotion to partner, etc.

edit: it costs $250 without membership

Anonymously post it lol

[M51]

I always like studies that put CLS's NY biglaw market dominance into nice objective #s.

I particularly like edcrane's link: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/

[superflush]

Please post feedback, thoughts, etc (a simple 'thank you' or 'you're an idiot' is fine). I'm gonna continue to work on this, and eventually include all V100 firm offices.

Is it me, or is Indiana just not on this list?

[Foozle]

Please post feedback, thoughts, etc (a simple 'thank you' or 'you're an idiot' is fine). I'm gonna continue to work on this, and eventually include all V100 firm offices.

Is it me, or is Indiana just not on this list?

I didn't find any Indiana grads from 2007-2008 in the NY office of a V100 firm.

[OperaSoprano]

I always like studies that put CLS's NY biglaw market dominance into nice objective #s.

I particularly like edcrane's link: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/

I'm very happy with Fordham's, as well, and I don't even want biglaw.

My god, we are a pair of trolls!

[adamlippes]

I always like studies that put CLS's NY biglaw market dominance into nice objective #s.

I particularly like edcrane's link: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/

I'm very happy with Fordham's, as well, and I don't even want biglaw.

My god, we are a pair of trolls!

How can you be happy with just 15.3% of the class breaking into the V100, and even then only in a good economy??????

[OperaSoprano]

I always like studies that put CLS's NY biglaw market dominance into nice objective #s.

I particularly like edcrane's link: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/

I'm very happy with Fordham's, as well, and I don't even want biglaw.

My god, we are a pair of trolls!

How can you be happy with just 15.3% of the class breaking into the V100, and even then only in a good economy??????

Placement relative to peers. See here (more recent numbers):

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

We outplace our ranking every year, though. As I've said, I won't be going near a V100 firm, but I'm happy to see my school so well thought of.

I won't be back on for a bit- I'm going to volunteer for a few hours. (Edit: at a nonprofit that represents low income and elderly tenants right in the neighborhood.) This afternoon is such a studying fail, so I'd best try to do something productive.

[adamlippes]

I always like studies that put CLS's NY biglaw market dominance into nice objective #s.

I particularly like edcrane's link: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/

I'm very happy with Fordham's, as well, and I don't even want biglaw.

My god, we are a pair of trolls!

How can you be happy with just 15.3% of the class breaking into the V100, and even then only in a good economy??????

Placement relative to peers. See here (more recent numbers):

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

We outplace our ranking every year, though. As I've said, I won't be going near a V100 firm, but I'm happy to see my school so well thought of.

I won't be back on for a bit- I'm going to volunteer for a few hours.

Those might be more recent, but they don't reflect the hiring slaughters of EIW in 2008 and EIW in 2009.

[OperaSoprano]

Those might be more recent, but they don't reflect the hiring slaughters of EIW in 2008 and EIW in 2009.

If you have those numbers, please post them. I haven't seen anything official from the class of 2009, though speculation is of course rampant.

[adamlippes]

Those might be more recent, but they don't reflect the hiring slaughters of EIW in 2008 and EIW in 2009.

If you have those numbers, please post them. I haven't seen anything official from the class of 2009, though speculation is of course rampant.

No, I don't. I just don't think it's worthwhile to troll for a school based on facts that no longer bear any practical significance.

[OperaSoprano]

Those might be more recent, but they don't reflect the hiring slaughters of EIW in 2008 and EIW in 2009.

If you have those numbers, please post them. I haven't seen anything official from the class of 2009, though speculation is of course rampant.

No, I don't. I just don't think it's worthwhile to troll for a school based on facts that no longer bear any practical significance.

I don't troll for my school because of its V100 placement, though I happily make note of it. That's not why I love the school, and it's certainly not why I'm here.

I'll be happy to talk about my school's new numbers when they are released,

[adamlippes]

Those might be more recent, but they don't reflect the hiring slaughters of EIW in 2008 and EIW in 2009.

If you have those numbers, please post them. I haven't seen anything official from the class of 2009, though speculation is of course rampant.

No, I don't. I just don't think it's worthwhile to troll for a school based on facts that no longer bear any practical significance.

I don't troll for my school because of its V100 placement, though I happily make note of it. That's not why I love the school, and it's certainly not why I'm here.

I'll be happy to talk about my school's new numbers when they are released,

I don't think it's worthwhile happily tot ake note of facts that no longer bear any practical significance.

[hypermeganet]

I don't think it's worthwhile happily tot ake note of facts that no longer bear any practical significance.

In this economy, pretty much no school should take note of their placement compared to 2007-2008. That doesn't mean that it's not worth noting their placement in respect to other schools ITE.

Fordham will still outpace all other schools ranked in the 30s for big law placement. Whether you think the current % placed is worth noting is up for debate.

[dood]

...

[M51]

I don't think it's worthwhile happily tot ake note of facts that no longer bear any practical significance.

You don't think the relative %s of schools (to other schools) will remain roughly equal? That when push comes to shove, V100 firms will favor certain schools rather than make cuts across the board?

Don't look at it as raw data for '09, but as relative data for how well one school places vs another school.

[adamlippes]

You don't think the relative %s of schools (to other schools) will remain roughly equal? That when push comes to shove, V100 firms will favor certain schools rather than make cuts across the board?

No, I don't.

Prior to OCI/EIW, I hypothesized that there were two ways in which hiring could be curtailed. One was by a proportional decrease in hiring from all schools; the other was some schools getting the shaft altogether, while others enjoying a not-nearly-so severe penalty. Given these two distinct possibilities, and I won't try to estimate which is the most probable of the two, relying on past data as a means of revealing proportional representation in today's economy is just bad extrapolation.

{edited out}

Summary: I don't think past data is reliable even for proportional predictions, because I think it's possible (and probably the case) that firms didn't really follow that rubric during this hybrid system. I really didn't mean to start a serious discussion. I just think OperaSoprano's trolling betrays a childish naivité, and I feel that it's my duty to bring her down a notch in that regard.

[OperaSoprano]

You don't think the relative %s of schools (to other schools) will remain roughly equal? That when push comes to shove, V100 firms will favor certain schools rather than make cuts across the board?

No, I don't.

Prior to OCI/EIW, I hypothesized that there were two ways in which hiring could be curtailed. One was by a proportional decrease in hiring from all schools; the other was some schools getting the shaft altogether, while others enjoying a not-nearly-so severe penalty. Given these two distinct possibilities, and I won't try to estimate which is the most probable of the two, relying on past data as a means of revealing proportional representation in today's economy is just bad extrapolation.

{edited out}

Summary: I don't think past data is reliable even for proportional predictions, because I think it's possible (and probably the case) that firms didn't really follow that rubric during this hybrid system. I really didn't mean to start a serious discussion. I just think OperaSoprano's trolling betrays a childish naivité, and I feel that it's my duty to bring her down a notch in that regard.

You won't be successful, but I am amused that you think I am up somewhere. Like many of my classmates, I'm not so wealthy that I won't have to work when I graduate, but given my openness to non-prestigious legal employment, I hardly think my school will serve me ill in this economy, or in any other. Given my personal history, it's a small miracle that I'm here at all, and one that I intend to enjoy to the fullest every day, sans bitterness or regret.

My exuberance has served me reasonably well. I will never attend a T14, but my school will get me where I need to go.

As for your expertise (if you've been through OCI already), the board is always appreciative of concrete information. You are invited to share statistics and insights gleaned from your experience. I would advise you that M51 knows whereof he speaks. If you won't credit my opinion, take his.