How much do you bill? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Anon as this is a very identifying question. After reading through this post I would like to ask everyone a question, but am not OP and don't mean to hijack.

I am currently working for a firm where the printed, stated yearly target (not bonus dependent) is between 1900-2000. This was explicitly told to me during the hiring process and is public info about this firm. Only a few months in I received a call from management saying that the true group target is higher than the firm target and that the expectation to maintain my spot in the group is to meet the group target.

Nobody has put this in writing, but I receive consistent oral pressure to meet a billable target of 200-250/month. Several associates have taken up substances to help with the billable task load. On top of it, am being asked to do constant BD work streams (non billable). I was explicitly told that between 180-190 hours is considered "slow-average" and does not meet the group standard. Have any of you experienced something like this?

I am not the only person this has been told to. I have 3 other fellow close junior-mid level associates who have confided in me that they were told that unless they will start billing close to 200/month they will be called and condemned by the head of the group personally. I am only considered busy if I am billing close to 60/week. This seems extremely toxic, but honestly at this point think this is just how big law is? Am exhausted all the time and really just looking for some honest answers so I can plan my future for myself.

Could use advice as to whether this is truly normal and if no, what to do about it (if anything other than just putting my head down, saving the bag and leaving after a year and a half). Thanks all.

This is insane. It is not normal. And no one should be billing near 2500 for market pay. Partners like this are just scum, no other way to put it. At least have the balls to make your expectations clear. I’m sorry you have to deal with this crap.

Agreed. It's one thing to stake partnership on working harder, but to tell juniors they'll get pushed out without high hours is insane, not only because it's evil but also because it makes bad business sense. An average biglaw midlevel/senior is way more profitable than a high-billing junior, but if your associates won't last long enough to be super profitable if you burn them out.

Does firm management/HR know about this? I discussed it with my reviewer not in my group. He seemed shocked by it. But, one week after working between 200-250 hours, I got a call to do more work. I was explicitly told "these were the expectations." I have been taking contemporary notes of all interactions. Firm has no incentive to stop the management because the group is ... obviously very profitable right now. I have other complaints, such as the constant use of the phrase "We don't want to get the client pregnant with this" from management and clients, almost no women in power in the group. I feel uncomfortable. Could use advice on evidence collection if anyone has it in case things get worse. You should name the firm/group so we steer 2Ls away. maybe after I quit. trying to make it another year and a half in big law. For now, for obvious reasons, I cannot.

Group is east coast based for the most part.

Quoted Anon, responses in bold.

[Anonymous User]

Anon as this is a very identifying question. After reading through this post I would like to ask everyone a question, but am not OP and don't mean to hijack.

I am currently working for a firm where the printed, stated yearly target (not bonus dependent) is between 1900-2000. This was explicitly told to me during the hiring process and is public info about this firm. Only a few months in I received a call from management saying that the true group target is higher than the firm target and that the expectation to maintain my spot in the group is to meet the group target.

Nobody has put this in writing, but I receive consistent oral pressure to meet a billable target of 200-250/month. Several associates have taken up substances to help with the billable task load. On top of it, am being asked to do constant BD work streams (non billable). I was explicitly told that between 180-190 hours is considered "slow-average" and does not meet the group standard. Have any of you experienced something like this?

I am not the only person this has been told to. I have 3 other fellow close junior-mid level associates who have confided in me that they were told that unless they will start billing close to 200/month they will be called and condemned by the head of the group personally. I am only considered busy if I am billing close to 60/week. This seems extremely toxic, but honestly at this point think this is just how big law is? Am exhausted all the time and really just looking for some honest answers so I can plan my future for myself.

Could use advice as to whether this is truly normal and if no, what to do about it (if anything other than just putting my head down, saving the bag and leaving after a year and a half). Thanks all.

This is insane. It is not normal. And no one should be billing near 2500 for market pay. Partners like this are just scum, no other way to put it. At least have the balls to make your expectations clear. I’m sorry you have to deal with this crap.

Agreed. It's one thing to stake partnership on working harder, but to tell juniors they'll get pushed out without high hours is insane, not only because it's evil but also because it makes bad business sense. An average biglaw midlevel/senior is way more profitable than a high-billing junior, but if your associates won't last long enough to be super profitable if you burn them out.

Does firm management/HR know about this? I discussed it with my reviewer not in my group. He seemed shocked by it. But, one week after working between 200-250 hours, I got a call to do more work. I was explicitly told "these were the expectations." I have been taking contemporary notes of all interactions. Firm has no incentive to stop the management because the group is ... obviously very profitable right now. I have other complaints, such as the constant use of the phrase "We don't want to get the client pregnant with this" from management and clients, almost no women in power in the group. I feel uncomfortable. Could use advice on evidence collection if anyone has it in case things get worse. You should name the firm/group so we steer 2Ls away. maybe after I quit. trying to make it another year and a half in big law. For now, for obvious reasons, I cannot.

Group is east coast based for the most part.

Quoted Anon, responses in bold.

Vault ranking?

[Anonymous User]

Anon as this is a very identifying question. After reading through this post I would like to ask everyone a question, but am not OP and don't mean to hijack.

I am currently working for a firm where the printed, stated yearly target (not bonus dependent) is between 1900-2000. This was explicitly told to me during the hiring process and is public info about this firm. Only a few months in I received a call from management saying that the true group target is higher than the firm target and that the expectation to maintain my spot in the group is to meet the group target.

Nobody has put this in writing, but I receive consistent oral pressure to meet a billable target of 200-250/month. Several associates have taken up substances to help with the billable task load. On top of it, am being asked to do constant BD work streams (non billable). I was explicitly told that between 180-190 hours is considered "slow-average" and does not meet the group standard. Have any of you experienced something like this?

I am not the only person this has been told to. I have 3 other fellow close junior-mid level associates who have confided in me that they were told that unless they will start billing close to 200/month they will be called and condemned by the head of the group personally. I am only considered busy if I am billing close to 60/week. This seems extremely toxic, but honestly at this point think this is just how big law is? Am exhausted all the time and really just looking for some honest answers so I can plan my future for myself.

Could use advice as to whether this is truly normal and if no, what to do about it (if anything other than just putting my head down, saving the bag and leaving after a year and a half). Thanks all.

This is insane. It is not normal. And no one should be billing near 2500 for market pay. Partners like this are just scum, no other way to put it. At least have the balls to make your expectations clear. I’m sorry you have to deal with this crap.

Agreed. It's one thing to stake partnership on working harder, but to tell juniors they'll get pushed out without high hours is insane, not only because it's evil but also because it makes bad business sense. An average biglaw midlevel/senior is way more profitable than a high-billing junior, but if your associates won't last long enough to be super profitable if you burn them out.

Does firm management/HR know about this? I discussed it with my reviewer not in my group. He seemed shocked by it. But, one week after working between 200-250 hours, I got a call to do more work. I was explicitly told "these were the expectations." I have been taking contemporary notes of all interactions. Firm has no incentive to stop the management because the group is ... obviously very profitable right now. I have other complaints, such as the constant use of the phrase "We don't want to get the client pregnant with this" from management and clients, almost no women in power in the group. I feel uncomfortable. Could use advice on evidence collection if anyone has it in case things get worse. You should name the firm/group so we steer 2Ls away. maybe after I quit. trying to make it another year and a half in big law. For now, for obvious reasons, I cannot.

Group is east coast based for the most part.

Quoted Anon, responses in bold.

Vault ranking? very high in the v rankings, but not quite white shoe. this is not the most profitable firm in the world

[Anonymous User]

At my V10 some senior partner had a townhall style chat with all the junior lit associates in our office and told us it would be "coasting" to bill at 2100-2200 hours.

[Anonymous User]

First year annualizing about 1750 (extremely slow ramp up class-wide) but have heard all good things. Am above the class average if that counts for anything. It seems like in our group there ain't much reward for being the fastest deer in the pack. And they haven't fired any of the slow deer and some of them seem to be actively trying to get fired. Feeling like I'm missing out on some development for sure but not at all concerned about getting fired. If you make it to 3d year at my office, there are any number of offices in the same market lining up to steal you it seems. As long as one is only trying to survive to like year 6 (all I'm really trying to do) it seems like, even in this economy, it's not all that hard at my firm (V10 not in NYC). We have a few legit obstinate trainwreck juniors who more or less refuse to work and they're still collecting paychecks.

[Anonymous User]

At my V10 some senior partner had a townhall style chat with all the junior lit associates in our office and told us it would be "coasting" to bill at 2100-2200 hours.

This is genuinely insane. At my V20 in a secondary market, they called 2250+ "crazy" at a similar event.

[Anonymous User]

First year annualizing about 1750 (extremely slow ramp up class-wide) but have heard all good things. Am above the class average if that counts for anything. It seems like in our group there ain't much reward for being the fastest deer in the pack. And they haven't fired any of the slow deer and some of them seem to be actively trying to get fired. Feeling like I'm missing out on some development for sure but not at all concerned about getting fired. If you make it to 3d year at my office, there are any number of offices in the same market lining up to steal you it seems. As long as one is only trying to survive to like year 6 (all I'm really trying to do) it seems like, even in this economy, it's not all that hard at my firm (V10 not in NYC). We have a few legit obstinate trainwreck juniors who more or less refuse to work and they're still collecting paychecks.

I've also been shocked at how slow several people have been in my class year. I kinda can't believe how common sub-1300 to 1500 is because several groups are consistently slammed in my office. These people never reach out to them and openly talk about pretty regular sub-20 hour weeks. Pretty sure several of them regularly just take Monday and Friday half days at home. Also seen first-hand many utterly blown deadlines, no-show to small meetings with partners/seniors, and strolling in the office at like noon. Would've assumed the almost quarter-mil salary would make more people give a shit.

Power to them. But, I'll be pissed if the firm drops myself or any other 1st year that's at least trying to help before firing them.

[Anonymous User]

At my V10 some senior partner had a townhall style chat with all the junior lit associates in our office and told us it would be "coasting" to bill at 2100-2200 hours.

This is genuinely insane. At my V20 in a secondary market, they called 2250+ "crazy" at a similar event.

Yeah. It was worded as "Sure you can coast by at 2100-2200 hrs but if you really want to stand out to us and build a reputation you should be jumping on every opportunity to work."

[Anonymous User]

At my V10 some senior partner had a townhall style chat with all the junior lit associates in our office and told us it would be "coasting" to bill at 2100-2200 hours.

This is genuinely insane. At my V20 in a secondary market, they called 2250+ "crazy" at a similar event.

Calling 2200 “coasting” is insane. These partners are almost always the biggest losers too, typically dudes who have no life outside the firm and a completely dwarfed view of reality. My experience has been that the best partners to work for are almost all people who have done high level government work. I don’t know why this is the case but they are usually way more competent and relaxed. They also are usually better at handling obnoxious clients. They don’t create unnecessary fire drills like most of the firm grown partners who are actually pathetically terrified of clients.

I’m honestly surprised clients don’t request and take hours billed into consideration when picking law firms. I personally wouldn’t want to hire people annualizing over 2200 to work on my matter. I firmly believe that only a very select few people can produce high quality work year over year when they are billing over the 2k mark.

[Anonymous User]

Agreed. It's one thing to stake partnership on working harder, but to tell juniors they'll get pushed out without high hours is insane, not only because it's evil but also because it makes bad business sense. An average biglaw midlevel/senior is way more profitable than a high-billing junior, but if your associates won't last long enough to be super profitable if you burn them out.

Does firm management/HR know about this? I discussed it with my reviewer not in my group. He seemed shocked by it. But, one week after working between 200-250 hours, I got a call to do more work. I was explicitly told "these were the expectations." I have been taking contemporary notes of all interactions. Firm has no incentive to stop the management because the group is ... obviously very profitable right now. I have other complaints, such as the constant use of the phrase "We don't want to get the client pregnant with this" from management and clients, almost no women in power in the group. I feel uncomfortable. Could use advice on evidence collection if anyone has it in case things get worse. You should name the firm/group so we steer 2Ls away. maybe after I quit. trying to make it another year and a half in big law. For now, for obvious reasons, I cannot.

Group is east coast based for the most part.

Quoted Anon, responses in bold.

Vault ranking? very high in the v rankings, but not quite white shoe. this is not the most profitable firm in the world

I'm the anon with the initial question set. I'm honestly at a loss here. I'm in a group that works people hard (I've had a 3k+ year due to trials), but that's only if you let them. Nobody on track to hit 2k get's told "these were the expectations" to do more or voluntold to join a new matter until they're a senior and clearly gunning for partner. As I said before, this is shortsighted and a recipe for burnout that will end up costing the firm.

Not really sure what evidence gathering will do (maybe just a backstop if you get fired with "performance" as a pretext for lower hours), but it can't hurt. Take notes and get things in writing when you can. Confirmatory emails after a phone call are helpful (though obviously you have to be careful how you word them).

You could try to have a more open convo with your mentor (e.g., say you're actually afraid of getting fired if you don't bill high, and ask if that's happened/crazy and/or how you can manage your workload). But I understand if you're worried that would rock the boat too much. Part of me says it would be crazy to fire an associate billing 2k+ even if not 2.5k+, but I don't know your firm/group and I don't want to lead you down the wrong path. I guess the best thing to do would be to start sending feelers for lateralling since this group sounds toxic. You're a first year and want to last another 1.5 at least, but if you find a firm with a better work/life balance you'll probably last even longer (which will make the quick lateral seem fine).

I don't know the phrase you quoted, so I'm not sure I have any helpful advice there. Biglaw is unfortunately still very male dominated, but the reasons for that are often complex (e.g., busy groups in particular lose a lot of new mothers). However, if there's something that's making the work environment hostile to women in particular (as opposed to just all associates) that's 1000% not okay and worth at least documenting with HR.

[Anonymous User]

First year annualizing about 1750 (extremely slow ramp up class-wide) but have heard all good things. Am above the class average if that counts for anything. It seems like in our group there ain't much reward for being the fastest deer in the pack. And they haven't fired any of the slow deer and some of them seem to be actively trying to get fired. Feeling like I'm missing out on some development for sure but not at all concerned about getting fired. If you make it to 3d year at my office, there are any number of offices in the same market lining up to steal you it seems. As long as one is only trying to survive to like year 6 (all I'm really trying to do) it seems like, even in this economy, it's not all that hard at my firm (V10 not in NYC). We have a few legit obstinate trainwreck juniors who more or less refuse to work and they're still collecting paychecks.

I've also been shocked at how slow several people have been in my class year. I kinda can't believe how common sub-1300 to 1500 is because several groups are consistently slammed in my office. These people never reach out to them and openly talk about pretty regular sub-20 hour weeks. Pretty sure several of them regularly just take Monday and Friday half days at home. Also seen first-hand many utterly blown deadlines, no-show to small meetings with partners/seniors, and strolling in the office at like noon. Would've assumed the almost quarter-mil salary would make more people give a shit.

Power to them. But, I'll be pissed if the firm drops myself or any other 1st year that's at least trying to help before firing them.

Anon you quoted. I see the exact same type of thing. We have juniors (not just first years) who are annualizing under 800 hours and they could not give less of a crap. They openly share their abundance of free time (essentially calling the rest of us suckers). It kind of blows my mind but they're also kind of my heroes at this point.

[Anonymous User]

At my V10 some senior partner had a townhall style chat with all the junior lit associates in our office and told us it would be "coasting" to bill at 2100-2200 hours.

This is genuinely insane. At my V20 in a secondary market, they called 2250+ "crazy" at a similar event.

Calling 2200 “coasting” is insane. These partners are almost always the biggest losers too, typically dudes who have no life outside the firm and a completely dwarfed view of reality. My experience has been that the best partners to work for are almost all people who have done high level government work. I don’t know why this is the case but they are usually way more competent and relaxed. They also are usually better at handling obnoxious clients. They don’t create unnecessary fire drills like most of the firm grown partners who are actually pathetically terrified of clients.

I’m honestly surprised clients don’t request and take hours billed into consideration when picking law firms. I personally wouldn’t want to hire people annualizing over 2200 to work on my matter. I firmly believe that only a very select few people can produce high quality work year over year when they are billing over the 2k mark.

Biglaw litigation partner. I agree that calling 2200 "coasting" is insane, but my experience is that ex-government lawyers often have some of the most unrealistic expectations and worst work-life balance. Some are as you describe, but others are people who came up working biglaw hours for government pay and think that anyone making 200k+ a year should be doing nothing but work. (They also tend to be much more hardline about being in the office, push stuff to attorneys that staff should be doing, are weirdly cheap because their sense of money is colored by government work, etc.)

Having a healthy family life tends to be the best predictor of being good to work for, at least in my experience.

[Anonymous User]

Having a healthy family life tends to be the best predictor of being good to work for, at least in my experience.

TITCR.

Re: What people bill: At the top 10 or 20 litigation firms, I'm pretty sure the average is somewhere around 1900-2100, if not a bit higher. There are a handful of extreme outliers like Wachtell and Cravath that have people billing 2700-4000 hours. Everyone else except some outlier boutiques bills about 1900-2100 (more if gunning for partnership, less if indifferent to being fired). Once you dip lower in the prestige rankings (V50-V100 or lower) people may bill like 1800.

[Anonymous User]

A partner at my firm standardly tells juniors that the first number of their billable hours total every month should be a "2." She says that if it's not, this is not the firm for you.

Even if you take a few weeks off into account, this puts you at 2200-2300 easily.

Kinda chilling, but at least she's up front about it...

[Anonymous User]

A partner at my firm standardly tells juniors that the first number of their billable hours total every month should be a "2." She says that if it's not, this is not the firm for you.

Even if you take a few weeks off into account, this puts you at 2200-2300 easily.

Kinda chilling, but at least she's up front about it...

What firm?

[Anonymous User]

I guess this is self-evident or dumb but when people say they billed 2000 hours, that means 2,000 billable hours, right?

Like my firm lets you count lots of non-billable stuff towards your time (pro bono, business development, even just like going to firm networking events and stuff) and doesn't hinge your bonus on it. I'm putting in like 55 hours a week or something by that metric, but maybe like 40-45 if you only count something billed to a client. I'm not "billing" on pace for 2600 hours, right?

In case it's not obvious I just started

[Anonymous User]

I guess this is self-evident or dumb but when people say they billed 2000 hours, that means 2,000 billable hours, right?

Like my firm lets you count lots of non-billable stuff towards your time (pro bono, business development, even just like going to firm networking events and stuff) and doesn't hinge your bonus on it. I'm putting in like 55 hours a week or something by that metric, but maybe like 40-45 if you only count something billed to a client. I'm not "billing" on pace for 2600 hours, right?

In case it's not obvious I just started

When I post a number on this forum, I post what my firm counts for purposes of our hours requirement. In addition to client billable work, that also includes things like (unlimited) pro bono and substantive bus dev (pitches, writing for publications/client updates), but doesn't include internal education/CLEs, professional events, or firm committees.

Firms vary widely in what they count, which probably influences what people report on this forum. But I suspect people report more than just client billable hours if their firm credits them for more.