RTO (Not going to go in) Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm a third year and our firm has requested 3 days a week mandatory this week onwards. I don't plan to go in except when absolutely necessary. How are folks in other folks handling RTO mandates? Is it mass disobedience or are we just falling in line and letting go of what is the only way to sustain this lifestyle?

Today technically is an anchor day. I woke up to go in but missed the train (actually) from Boston, so I guess my "disobedience" takes this lame form today, but I hope it helps. I have a feeling people will comply until covid comes back through the city. The question is, do you, as an individual, have enough leverage not to comply, including enough work to bill over the next few months? I think going in a few times between now and December is probably the best policy, just to literally show your face. I have no intention to comply with multiple days, however. I let go of my lease in New York and have been aggressively saving every penny for a few months. Goal is to go enough not to be fired at this December review (which would be unlikely based on my practice) and to reassess after the winter if I want to keep the job for another year or if I've saved enough to maybe move on to my next job (if I do want to work through to 2024, then maybe I'll go in more).

As to the poster above, I think I'm #4. The pandemic has really changed me and I am definitely less social -- but, can you blame me? I think society has become unappealing and little is compelling about it, people are meaner, everything is more expensive and dangerous, etc. I personally don't feel connected to anyone or anything and don't feel like going to the office is where I will derive that meaning for me. I guess that means I need a new job. But, how was I supposed to know how I would react to simultaneous global crisis that ripped through my 20s and took society away? I feel that people keep speaking about those of us in the #4 category like we're just the equivalent of legal industry serial killers who never wanted to come in because it cuts into our backwoods murdering time, and therefore we deserve to have our livelihoods threatened for what was, only months ago, complying with the constantly changing mandates. At a certain point, it's just too much stress for little return.

I don't mind and often genuinely enjoy my job, even from home, and I want to do good work for the firm. But, my life (including financially with how expensive the city is now and the never ending uncertainty with student loan debt -- I have 200k+) I really just cannot afford a 3 day return to office. I would love to keep my job, but honestly feel priced out of the city. Prior to losing my lease I had no money at the end of the month with my SLD payments. been doing this job for about 3 years and I only had about $4,000 saved. It just is less profitable for me to do what they're asking than it is to move to regional mid law. Not that this is anybody's problem but my own. I couldn't have known graduating in 2020 what would happen to me these last two years. It's not spiteful, I'm just trying to fucking make it. But, firm management (the whole industry over) is just wildly disconnected with reality for some of us. It makes me depressed to feel like I've failed at even this simple thing and yet it is literally so untenable for my life right now that I don't know what else I can do but fail.

This is where it lost me. Certainly midlevel salaries don't buy us the nicest penthouse in Manhattan, but I don't think it's realistic to say we can't afford to live anywhere near the office (in any city). Certainly the world has gotten more expensive, but we have also seen salary increases (we can debate in another thread about whether those raises really beat inflation or not, but the point stands that we can afford a decently nice place to sleep and to eat).

This job is tough and you shouldn't have to feel like a failure because it is very hard and requires a lot of sacrifice, which many people decide is ultimately not worth it, and those people still go on to have very rewarding/successful careers.

Ok, let me ask you a question: You're 270,000 in debt. You take home about $10,000 a month. Rent in a safe commutable distance to work is conservatively, for one person, between $3,000-$5,000 a month. Ok, so let's go with the middle say I'm paying somewhere around $4000-4,500 just on a place to live. That's about 45% of my income. Then let's tack on $4,000 a month in student loan payments because remember, these jobs aren't forever, and who knows when they'll start the loans back and if I don't keep aggressively paying I'll be back in a situation with interest compounding at 7%! Thank god I managed to stop paying interest...four months ago! So, where are we, around $8,000 in budget? And how much does it cost to eat in NYC? Say $300-700 a month? Would you do this job and return to office if you only took home about $1000 a month or less? (obviously I regret going to law school, but here I am.)

Fair point, but I am someone who also graduated with over $300k in debt. I knew what I was signing up for and that I would have to stick it out longer in order to pay down my debt (if I wanted to have some lifestyle benefits, which for me has been worth it).

So it's not fair to say firms aren't paying us enough to live near the city (though I'm happy to make that argument and continue getting raises, I just can't say that with a straight face), it's a choice to pay $4k a month to pay down loans quickly (and I admit it's a smart choice), but there are other options.

Edit: As a reference point, when I was a first year, I only took home about $8k per month and paid $3500 for my housing.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a third year and our firm has requested 3 days a week mandatory this week onwards. I don't plan to go in except when absolutely necessary. How are folks in other folks handling RTO mandates? Is it mass disobedience or are we just falling in line and letting go of what is the only way to sustain this lifestyle?

Today technically is an anchor day. I woke up to go in but missed the train (actually) from Boston, so I guess my "disobedience" takes this lame form today, but I hope it helps. I have a feeling people will comply until covid comes back through the city. The question is, do you, as an individual, have enough leverage not to comply, including enough work to bill over the next few months? I think going in a few times between now and December is probably the best policy, just to literally show your face. I have no intention to comply with multiple days, however. I let go of my lease in New York and have been aggressively saving every penny for a few months. Goal is to go enough not to be fired at this December review (which would be unlikely based on my practice) and to reassess after the winter if I want to keep the job for another year or if I've saved enough to maybe move on to my next job (if I do want to work through to 2024, then maybe I'll go in more).

As to the poster above, I think I'm #4. The pandemic has really changed me and I am definitely less social -- but, can you blame me? I think society has become unappealing and little is compelling about it, people are meaner, everything is more expensive and dangerous, etc. I personally don't feel connected to anyone or anything and don't feel like going to the office is where I will derive that meaning for me. I guess that means I need a new job. But, how was I supposed to know how I would react to simultaneous global crisis that ripped through my 20s and took society away? I feel that people keep speaking about those of us in the #4 category like we're just the equivalent of legal industry serial killers who never wanted to come in because it cuts into our backwoods murdering time, and therefore we deserve to have our livelihoods threatened for what was, only months ago, complying with the constantly changing mandates. At a certain point, it's just too much stress for little return.

I don't mind and often genuinely enjoy my job, even from home, and I want to do good work for the firm. But, my life (including financially with how expensive the city is now and the never ending uncertainty with student loan debt -- I have 200k+) I really just cannot afford a 3 day return to office. I would love to keep my job, but honestly feel priced out of the city. Prior to losing my lease I had no money at the end of the month with my SLD payments. been doing this job for about 3 years and I only had about $4,000 saved. It just is less profitable for me to do what they're asking than it is to move to regional mid law. Not that this is anybody's problem but my own. I couldn't have known graduating in 2020 what would happen to me these last two years. It's not spiteful, I'm just trying to fucking make it. But, firm management (the whole industry over) is just wildly disconnected with reality for some of us. It makes me depressed to feel like I've failed at even this simple thing and yet it is literally so untenable for my life right now that I don't know what else I can do but fail.

This is where it lost me. Certainly midlevel salaries don't buy us the nicest penthouse in Manhattan, but I don't think it's realistic to say we can't afford to live anywhere near the office (in any city). Certainly the world has gotten more expensive, but we have also seen salary increases (we can debate in another thread about whether those raises really beat inflation or not, but the point stands that we can afford a decently nice place to sleep and to eat).

This job is tough and you shouldn't have to feel like a failure because it is very hard and requires a lot of sacrifice, which many people decide is ultimately not worth it, and those people still go on to have very rewarding/successful careers.

Ok, let me ask you a question: You're 270,000 in debt. You take home about $10,000 a month. Rent in a safe commutable distance to work is conservatively, for one person, between $3,000-$5,000 a month. Ok, so let's go with the middle say I'm paying somewhere around $4000-4,500 just on a place to live. That's about 45% of my income. Then let's tack on $4,000 a month in student loan payments because remember, these jobs aren't forever, and who knows when they'll start the loans back and if I don't keep aggressively paying I'll be back in a situation with interest compounding at 7%! Thank god I managed to stop paying interest...four months ago! So, where are we, around $8,000 in budget? And how much does it cost to eat in NYC? Say $300-700 a month? Would you do this job and return to office if you only took home about $1000 a month or less? (obviously I regret going to law school, but here I am.)

Fair point, but I am someone who also graduated with over $300k in debt. I knew what I was signing up for and that I would have to stick it out longer in order to pay down my debt (if I wanted to have some lifestyle benefits, which for me has been worth it).

So it's not fair to say firms aren't paying us enough to live near the city (though I'm happy to make that argument and continue getting raises, I just can't say that with a straight face), it's a choice to pay $4k a month to pay down loans quickly (and I admit it's a smart choice), but there are other options.

Edit: As a reference point, when I was a first year, I only took home about $8k per month and paid $3500 for my housing.

I guess what I'm just trying to say is that I don't feel like I have a choice. The government change in interest rate from 3-7% in 2017 when they gave those tax cuts to certain companies to onshore their capital means, if my debt is "turned on," I owe an extra $1600 a month in interest alone. It just feels like I'm being crushed on all sides, to be honest. The easier choice would be to quit, and go for a bar in a cheaper jurisdiction. Maybe that's what my firm wants? The idea that I'd be able to sign a new lease at this cost level with $4,000 in my bank account is practically not realistic. So, I don't know what else to do except for partial compliance. Anyway, thanks for your sympathetic ear. Good luck to you out there.

[RedNewJersey]

I really just cannot afford a 3 day return to office. I would love to keep my job, but honestly feel priced out of the city. Prior to losing my lease I had no money at the end of the month with my SLD payments. been doing this job for about 3 years and I only had about $4,000 saved.

Ok, let me ask you a question: You're 270,000 in debt. You take home about $10,000 a month. Rent in a safe commutable distance to work is conservatively, for one person, between $3,000-$5,000 a month. Ok, so let's go with the middle say I'm paying somewhere around $4000-4,500 just on a place to live. That's about 45% of my income. Then let's tack on $4,000 a month in student loan payments because remember, these jobs aren't forever, and who knows when they'll start the loans back and if I don't keep aggressively paying I'll be back in a situation with interest compounding at 7%! Thank god I managed to stop paying interest...four months ago! So, where are we, around $8,000 in budget? And how much does it cost to eat in NYC? Say $300-700 a month? Would you do this job and return to office if you only took home about $1000 a month or less? (obviously I regret going to law school, but here I am.)

Fair point, but I am someone who also graduated with over $300k in debt. I knew what I was signing up for and that I would have to stick it out longer in order to pay down my debt (if I wanted to have some lifestyle benefits, which for me has been worth it).

So it's not fair to say firms aren't paying us enough to live near the city (though I'm happy to make that argument and continue getting raises, I just can't say that with a straight face), it's a choice to pay $4k a month to pay down loans quickly (and I admit it's a smart choice), but there are other options.

Edit: As a reference point, when I was a first year, I only took home about $8k per month and paid $3500 for my housing.

I'm still not sure how the math works out that you've been paying loans off for 3 years and saved only 4k. It starts with the "you take home $10k per month"--what about bonuses? As a fourth year, you will make like $370k this year. Is it really not going to be possible to save any cash? I started with a comparable debt load and paid it off in my fourth year (in a major, non-NYC, non-Texas market). There are annoying things about biglaw, but "I'm financially unstable" is not the main one.

[Anonymous User]

I really just cannot afford a 3 day return to office. I would love to keep my job, but honestly feel priced out of the city. Prior to losing my lease I had no money at the end of the month with my SLD payments. been doing this job for about 3 years and I only had about $4,000 saved.

Ok, let me ask you a question: You're 270,000 in debt. You take home about $10,000 a month. Rent in a safe commutable distance to work is conservatively, for one person, between $3,000-$5,000 a month. Ok, so let's go with the middle say I'm paying somewhere around $4000-4,500 just on a place to live. That's about 45% of my income. Then let's tack on $4,000 a month in student loan payments because remember, these jobs aren't forever, and who knows when they'll start the loans back and if I don't keep aggressively paying I'll be back in a situation with interest compounding at 7%! Thank god I managed to stop paying interest...four months ago! So, where are we, around $8,000 in budget? And how much does it cost to eat in NYC? Say $300-700 a month? Would you do this job and return to office if you only took home about $1000 a month or less? (obviously I regret going to law school, but here I am.)

Fair point, but I am someone who also graduated with over $300k in debt. I knew what I was signing up for and that I would have to stick it out longer in order to pay down my debt (if I wanted to have some lifestyle benefits, which for me has been worth it).

So it's not fair to say firms aren't paying us enough to live near the city (though I'm happy to make that argument and continue getting raises, I just can't say that with a straight face), it's a choice to pay $4k a month to pay down loans quickly (and I admit it's a smart choice), but there are other options.

Edit: As a reference point, when I was a first year, I only took home about $8k per month and paid $3500 for my housing.

I'm still not sure how the math works out that you've been paying loans off for 3 years and saved only 4k. It starts with the "you take home $10k per month"--what about bonuses? As a fourth year, you will make like $370k this year. Is it really not going to be possible to save any cash? I started with a comparable debt load and paid it off in my fourth year (in a major, non-NYC, non-Texas market). There are annoying things about biglaw, but "I'm financially unstable" is not the main one.

I am not a fourth year. I'm a second year. This is my third year. I've paid off about $60,000 in those two years (I had other debts as well graduating law school in 2020 like credit card, etc.), had to pay rent, buy all of the things people put in their house, including beds, and then suffer through inflation like everyone else. I also got diagnosed with a chronic health care issue that costs money to monitor and which ate up my bonus. All of the extra money I put on my SLD. I had over $50,000 in interest the moment I graduated. But, okay. I hope that helped clear up your confusion.

[RedNewJersey]

I am not a fourth year. I'm a second year. This is my third year. I've paid off about $60,000 in those two years (I had other debts as well graduating law school in 2020 like credit card, etc.), had to pay rent, buy all of the things people put in their house, including beds, and then suffer through inflation like everyone else. I also got diagnosed with a chronic health care issue that costs money to monitor and which ate up my bonus. All of the extra money I put on my SLD. I had over $50,000 in interest the moment I graduated. But, okay. I hope that helped clear up your confusion.

Gotcha. Sorry, that sounds rough.

[Anonymous User]

I am not a fourth year. I'm a second year. This is my third year. I've paid off about $60,000 in those two years (I had other debts as well graduating law school in 2020 like credit card, etc.), had to pay rent, buy all of the things people put in their house, including beds, and then suffer through inflation like everyone else. I also got diagnosed with a chronic health care issue that costs money to monitor and which ate up my bonus. All of the extra money I put on my SLD. I had over $50,000 in interest the moment I graduated. But, okay. I hope that helped clear up your confusion.

Gotcha. Sorry, that sounds rough.

Thanks, brother. It's alright. I'm not trying to say I am suffering the most of all time. But, I just want people to be wary when they see this language about people who are committed to WFH as being "anti-social" and all different types of pejoratives. While I may identify as some of those things personally both seriously and in-jest, despite the income many people are still struggling to make things work in their own lives. Sometimes no matter how hard a person wants something the circumstances they're in just provide drag on that success and accomplishment. These last two years have not just happened by, they've changed our lives in pretty big and yet to be determined ways. Sure, some of us have become less social. But, a lot of us are genuinely just trying to make it and feel like this could not have come at a worse time. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk. good luck 2 all.

[Bosque]

I'm a third year and our firm has requested 3 days a week mandatory this week onwards. I don't plan to go in except when absolutely necessary. How are folks in other folks handling RTO mandates? Is it mass disobedience or are we just falling in line and letting go of what is the only way to sustain this lifestyle?

Today technically is an anchor day. I woke up to go in but missed the train (actually) from Boston, so I guess my "disobedience" takes this lame form today, but I hope it helps. I have a feeling people will comply until covid comes back through the city. The question is, do you, as an individual, have enough leverage not to comply, including enough work to bill over the next few months? I think going in a few times between now and December is probably the best policy, just to literally show your face. I have no intention to comply with multiple days, however. I let go of my lease in New York and have been aggressively saving every penny for a few months. Goal is to go enough not to be fired at this December review (which would be unlikely based on my practice) and to reassess after the winter if I want to keep the job for another year or if I've saved enough to maybe move on to my next job (if I do want to work through to 2024, then maybe I'll go in more).

As to the poster above, I think I'm #4. The pandemic has really changed me and I am definitely less social -- but, can you blame me? I think society has become unappealing and little is compelling about it, people are meaner, everything is more expensive and dangerous, etc. I personally don't feel connected to anyone or anything and don't feel like going to the office is where I will derive that meaning for me. I guess that means I need a new job. But, how was I supposed to know how I would react to simultaneous global crisis that ripped through my 20s and took society away? I feel that people keep speaking about those of us in the #4 category like we're just the equivalent of legal industry serial killers who never wanted to come in because it cuts into our backwoods murdering time, and therefore we deserve to have our livelihoods threatened for what was, only months ago, complying with the constantly changing mandates. At a certain point, it's just too much stress for little return.

I don't mind and often genuinely enjoy my job, even from home, and I want to do good work for the firm. But, my life (including financially with how expensive the city is now and the never ending uncertainty with student loan debt -- I have 200k+) I really just cannot afford a 3 day return to office. I would love to keep my job, but honestly feel priced out of the city. Prior to losing my lease I had no money at the end of the month with my SLD payments. been doing this job for about 3 years and I only had about $4,000 saved. It just is less profitable for me to do what they're asking than it is to move to regional mid law. Not that this is anybody's problem but my own. I couldn't have known graduating in 2020 what would happen to me these last two years. It's not spiteful, I'm just trying to fucking make it. But, firm management (the whole industry over) is just wildly disconnected with reality for some of us. It makes me depressed to feel like I've failed at even this simple thing and yet it is literally so untenable for my life right now that I don't know what else I can do but fail.

This is where it lost me. Certainly midlevel salaries don't buy us the nicest penthouse in Manhattan, but I don't think it's realistic to say we can't afford to live anywhere near the office (in any city). Certainly the world has gotten more expensive, but we have also seen salary increases (we can debate in another thread about whether those raises really beat inflation or not, but the point stands that we can afford a decently nice place to sleep and to eat).

This job is tough and you shouldn't have to feel like a failure because it is very hard and requires a lot of sacrifice, which many people decide is ultimately not worth it, and those people still go on to have very rewarding/successful careers.

Ok, let me ask you a question: You're 270,000 in debt. You take home about $10,000 a month. Rent in a safe commutable distance to work is conservatively, for one person, between $3,000-$5,000 a month. Ok, so let's go with the middle say I'm paying somewhere around $4000-4,500 just on a place to live. That's about 45% of my income. Then let's tack on $4,000 a month in student loan payments because remember, these jobs aren't forever, and who knows when they'll start the loans back and if I don't keep aggressively paying I'll be back in a situation with interest compounding at 7%! Thank god I managed to stop paying interest...four months ago! So, where are we, around $8,000 in budget? And how much does it cost to eat in NYC? Say $300-700 a month? Would you do this job and return to office if you only took home about $1000 a month or less? (obviously I regret going to law school, but here I am.)

If you are single and in your 20s, maybe don't pay $4000-4500 for a place to live? Get a roommate or two and split a 2-3 bedroom. Even if you insist on living alone in Manhattan, I have a hard time believing you cannot find a studio for less than 3K. I just searched on Apartments.com and saw a bunch.

I also think you need to change your mindset on what counts as "saved." If you are really overpaying your loans, I would put that in the saved bucket, at least mentally. If you hadn't done that, you would still owe that amount. It's part of why it's more helpful to think in terms of net worth, than just raw savings.

[MDNCU]

I'm not diagnosing anything OP but your post does make it sound like there's something deeper going on besides just not wanting to do the commute a couple days a week. I think you should be honest with yourself about why it seems so unthinkable to go even once or twice a week. Your post comes off not just as liking WFH, but deeply resentful and sad about the state of the world/life. I'd just encourage you not to be so certain about what's going to make you feel better long term.

[Anonymous User]

An option may be to find a satellite office where there’s just a few attorneys so everything is lowkey. May not be the easiest route, but it’s possible. My managing partner straight up said as long as he’s captain of his small boat, we will not have to show up in office. I still go in 1-2 times every couple weeks just to get out of the house, but can’t imagine going back to being forced to go in office. We’re all adults here. i can see an issue if work isn’t getting done or an associate has shitty hours, but other than that why show up in office? Oh ya, the camaraderie duh

[Spartan_Alum_12]

Honestly, it really depends. Lawyers are notoriously risk averse, which means this is an uphill battle. Ideally, and this would happen in many other industries, employees would recognize it is stupid, band together, and not go in. In law, people recognize it is stupid, then go in anyway because they're afraid/think this is their shot to get to the top.

Hot take: If you actually want to have a career at the firm and/or care about your long-term development there, I don't think coming in a few days a week is stupid at all. Sitting in our houses on Zoom all day, in our pajamas, talking to our cats, isn't normal. If you view your time at the firm as a 12-24 month stopping off point before you jump in-house, then I could see the other perspective (basically, who gives a shit) but know you're just delaying the inevitable because industry is pushing for RTO too. This fantasy that we're all going to just work from home in our pajamas with video cameras forever is just that, a fantasy; it ain't healthy for employers or employees. All that said, I do think the 5-day in-office work week died during COVID for most white collar setups.

Heard the same thing in 2020. Then heard the same thing in 2021. Now it's October 2022 and my firm (not biglaw) is still full flex with the majority being full remote (some out of state far away from our single office). We'll see what happens but I'm guessing they'll be different firms doing different things. I think your blanket statement of no WFH forever is incorrect, some firms have that model (even a few had it pre COVID) and some will continue that model.

I also strongly disagree that it's not healthy for employees, but I don't feel like getting into that.

[meowmeow333]

I'm not ever going to RTO- every other week someone in my office is sick. I'm not going to risk getting long COVID and brain fog when I can do my job perfectly well from home.

[Anonymous User]

What about long term? I can't imagine someone makes partner at any biglaw firm fully remote. Que the "no one makes equity these days", but even if you need to bounce around people make equity. No firm is going to hire a lateral equity partner/counsel/whatever fully remote. So sure, for 8-10 years its fine, but long term I don't think it works at a firm.

[meowmeow333]

What about long term? I can't imagine someone makes partner at any biglaw firm fully remote. Que the "no one makes equity these days", but even if you need to bounce around people make equity. No firm is going to hire a lateral equity partner/counsel/whatever fully remote. So sure, for 8-10 years its fine, but long term I don't think it works at a firm.

oh i totally agree that being fully remote is incompatible with equity partnership, but for people like me who don't aspire toward that path it's not really a consideration. i think, like you said, it's feasible to stay at a firm ~8 years and then just go in house at a fully remote company. i'm just surprised that so few people are standing firm about working remotely- lawyers tend to be risk averse, but in terms of health risks they seem surprisingly lax.

[1styearlateral]

Every outside counsel I work with is in the office a few days a week at minimum. Most of them are partner, and the ones that aren’t are associates on track to make partner.

[Anonymous User]

Every outside counsel I work with is in the office a few days a week at minimum. Most of them are partner, and the ones that aren’t are associates on track to make partner.

Ya, not sure of any person that’s made partner working entirely full remote for obvious reasons. In case it’s not obvious - full remote barely started a year or two ago.

[GFox345]

Honestly, it really depends. Lawyers are notoriously risk averse, which means this is an uphill battle. Ideally, and this would happen in many other industries, employees would recognize it is stupid, band together, and not go in. In law, people recognize it is stupid, then go in anyway because they're afraid/think this is their shot to get to the top.

Hot take: If you actually want to have a career at the firm and/or care about your long-term development there, I don't think coming in a few days a week is stupid at all. Sitting in our houses on Zoom all day, in our pajamas, talking to our cats, isn't normal. If you view your time at the firm as a 12-24 month stopping off point before you jump in-house, then I could see the other perspective (basically, who gives a shit) but know you're just delaying the inevitable because industry is pushing for RTO too. This fantasy that we're all going to just work from home in our pajamas with video cameras forever is just that, a fantasy; it ain't healthy for employers or employees. All that said, I do think the 5-day in-office work week died during COVID for most white collar setups.

The fact that people are still saying this stupid shit almost three years into WFH blows my wig back. Dude, COVID hasn't even been the primary reason for WFH since May 2020. The majority of people clearly do not want to RTO (probably because it sucks), and most managers lack either the stupidity, the leverage, or the balls to try mandating it.

Also, just LOL at (1) a "healthy" lifestyle being the motivation for big law RTO. You have to be trolling. and (2) the dichotomy between being a desk monkey and not giving a shit about your career. You've had fucking three years. Think up better arguments.

[Anonymous User]

My favorites are the people who comply with the 3x policy but roll into the office and leave at lunch lol. Definitely not what firm management had in mind, but don't really think they have any options.

[nixy]

COVID hasn't even been the primary reason for WFH since May 2020.

I agree that lots of people (though not all) don’t want to go back and I don’t think they should have to, but the above isn’t even close to true.

[2013]

Are there any firms still not requiring RTO (think Quinn, Goodwin, KE)?

Heard Goodwin told some folks to never, ever come back. But I don't think this is quite what you're seeking.

Zing lol

At least they were brave enough to put their name on it this time.

??? Did Goodwin do layoffs?

[Anonymous User]

I go in 3-4 times a week, but I get in after 11 most days.

I live alone, and work is my only real social interaction most days, so I don’t mind it.

The partners really want everyone in at least 3 days and it’s obvious who is/isn’t coming in (the partner I work under comments on this).

I’m assuming RTO will be used to determine bonuses (firm is black box, but has historically been market at 1950 and above market beyond). People will probably leave after that.

The whole requirement to come in is dumb.

Just thoughts from my office.

[Anonymous User]

I really just cannot afford a 3 day return to office. I would love to keep my job, but honestly feel priced out of the city. Prior to losing my lease I had no money at the end of the month with my SLD payments. been doing this job for about 3 years and I only had about $4,000 saved.

Ok, let me ask you a question: You're 270,000 in debt. You take home about $10,000 a month. Rent in a safe commutable distance to work is conservatively, for one person, between $3,000-$5,000 a month. Ok, so let's go with the middle say I'm paying somewhere around $4000-4,500 just on a place to live. That's about 45% of my income. Then let's tack on $4,000 a month in student loan payments because remember, these jobs aren't forever, and who knows when they'll start the loans back and if I don't keep aggressively paying I'll be back in a situation with interest compounding at 7%! Thank god I managed to stop paying interest...four months ago! So, where are we, around $8,000 in budget? And how much does it cost to eat in NYC? Say $300-700 a month? Would you do this job and return to office if you only took home about $1000 a month or less? (obviously I regret going to law school, but here I am.)

Fair point, but I am someone who also graduated with over $300k in debt. I knew what I was signing up for and that I would have to stick it out longer in order to pay down my debt (if I wanted to have some lifestyle benefits, which for me has been worth it).

So it's not fair to say firms aren't paying us enough to live near the city (though I'm happy to make that argument and continue getting raises, I just can't say that with a straight face), it's a choice to pay $4k a month to pay down loans quickly (and I admit it's a smart choice), but there are other options.

Edit: As a reference point, when I was a first year, I only took home about $8k per month and paid $3500 for my housing.

I'm still not sure how the math works out that you've been paying loans off for 3 years and saved only 4k. It starts with the "you take home $10k per month"--what about bonuses? As a fourth year, you will make like $370k this year. Is it really not going to be possible to save any cash? I started with a comparable debt load and paid it off in my fourth year (in a major, non-NYC, non-Texas market). There are annoying things about biglaw, but "I'm financially unstable" is not the main one.

This math makes no sense to me. 3rd years make 307k with bonus. 10k take home is 120k a year. I am not aware of any taxing jurisdiction where people pay a 64ish% effective tax rate on 307k in the US. I think you are not including things in “take home” which you should and agree this is a bit hyperbolic.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a third year and our firm has requested 3 days a week mandatory this week onwards. I don't plan to go in except when absolutely necessary. How are folks in other folks handling RTO mandates? Is it mass disobedience or are we just falling in line and letting go of what is the only way to sustain this lifestyle?

Today technically is an anchor day. I woke up to go in but missed the train (actually) from Boston, so I guess my "disobedience" takes this lame form today, but I hope it helps. I have a feeling people will comply until covid comes back through the city. The question is, do you, as an individual, have enough leverage not to comply, including enough work to bill over the next few months? I think going in a few times between now and December is probably the best policy, just to literally show your face. I have no intention to comply with multiple days, however. I let go of my lease in New York and have been aggressively saving every penny for a few months. Goal is to go enough not to be fired at this December review (which would be unlikely based on my practice) and to reassess after the winter if I want to keep the job for another year or if I've saved enough to maybe move on to my next job (if I do want to work through to 2024, then maybe I'll go in more).

As to the poster above, I think I'm #4. The pandemic has really changed me and I am definitely less social -- but, can you blame me? I think society has become unappealing and little is compelling about it, people are meaner, everything is more expensive and dangerous, etc. I personally don't feel connected to anyone or anything and don't feel like going to the office is where I will derive that meaning for me. I guess that means I need a new job. But, how was I supposed to know how I would react to simultaneous global crisis that ripped through my 20s and took society away? I feel that people keep speaking about those of us in the #4 category like we're just the equivalent of legal industry serial killers who never wanted to come in because it cuts into our backwoods murdering time, and therefore we deserve to have our livelihoods threatened for what was, only months ago, complying with the constantly changing mandates. At a certain point, it's just too much stress for little return.

I don't mind and often genuinely enjoy my job, even from home, and I want to do good work for the firm. But, my life (including financially with how expensive the city is now and the never ending uncertainty with student loan debt -- I have 200k+) I really just cannot afford a 3 day return to office. I would love to keep my job, but honestly feel priced out of the city. Prior to losing my lease I had no money at the end of the month with my SLD payments. been doing this job for about 3 years and I only had about $4,000 saved. It just is less profitable for me to do what they're asking than it is to move to regional mid law. Not that this is anybody's problem but my own. I couldn't have known graduating in 2020 what would happen to me these last two years. It's not spiteful, I'm just trying to fucking make it. But, firm management (the whole industry over) is just wildly disconnected with reality for some of us. It makes me depressed to feel like I've failed at even this simple thing and yet it is literally so untenable for my life right now that I don't know what else I can do but fail.

This is where it lost me. Certainly midlevel salaries don't buy us the nicest penthouse in Manhattan, but I don't think it's realistic to say we can't afford to live anywhere near the office (in any city). Certainly the world has gotten more expensive, but we have also seen salary increases (we can debate in another thread about whether those raises really beat inflation or not, but the point stands that we can afford a decently nice place to sleep and to eat).

This job is tough and you shouldn't have to feel like a failure because it is very hard and requires a lot of sacrifice, which many people decide is ultimately not worth it, and those people still go on to have very rewarding/successful careers.

Ok, let me ask you a question: You're 270,000 in debt. You take home about $10,000 a month. Rent in a safe commutable distance to work is conservatively, for one person, between $3,000-$5,000 a month. Ok, so let's go with the middle say I'm paying somewhere around $4000-4,500 just on a place to live. That's about 45% of my income. Then let's tack on $4,000 a month in student loan payments because remember, these jobs aren't forever, and who knows when they'll start the loans back and if I don't keep aggressively paying I'll be back in a situation with interest compounding at 7%! Thank god I managed to stop paying interest...four months ago! So, where are we, around $8,000 in budget? And how much does it cost to eat in NYC? Say $300-700 a month? Would you do this job and return to office if you only took home about $1000 a month or less? (obviously I regret going to law school, but here I am.)

If you are single and in your 20s, maybe don't pay $4000-4500 for a place to live? Get a roommate or two and split a 2-3 bedroom. Even if you insist on living alone in Manhattan, I have a hard time believing you cannot find a studio for less than 3K. I just searched on Apartments.com and saw a bunch.

I also think you need to change your mindset on what counts as "saved." If you are really overpaying your loans, I would put that in the saved bucket, at least mentally. If you hadn't done that, you would still owe that amount. It's part of why it's more helpful to think in terms of net worth, than just raw savings.

Hi Bosque, I think you're missing the point and I think this is patronizing. I've lived in New York with roommates, flex rooms, craig's list roommates, dorm rooms, sublets, couches, etc...every manner of lifestyle you could think, I've lived in over the last decade in that city. I understand how to bring cost "down." The reality is bringing it down another $1000 a month so that I can eat and save "some" money is not really the kind of lifestyle that makes the misery of returning to the office and doing this 24-7 availability job worth it. I am not the only person who feels this. I did say I'm not suffering the most in the world, I'm aware of that, but like, I don't need to suffer additionally. I really don't think you've thought through your answer after reading my posts. I have a chronic health care condition that can become life threatening AT RANDOM and is a co-morbid condition for bad covid reactions. I do not want to be continuously exposed through my fucking roommates, if you'd been thinking critically before you offered your judgmental 2 cents maybe that would've come to mind. Do you have any idea how stressful it is to live with a virtual stranger to afford your living arrangement and to watch them constantly go clubbing regardless of the fact that they could literally kill you? I was constructively evicted for a month in 2020 when my roommate got covid on halloween and couldn't return until she was better at THANKSGIVING. Three vaccines and I had long covid in the winter while my SO had a cold.

The point is that, unlike many people in the market, I have leverage to go elsewhere from my firm. All of the inconveniences, including living with multiple roommates when I have a long distance significant other, at 28 years old, so that I can spend $3,500 a month instead of $4,500 ($3500 - how much I was spending when I did my lease) makes it not worth it for me or others in positions similar to me to give our all for rto. We exist, we deserve consideration, it is a work place issue if you want us to be coming into the work place, and if you don't then you'll just face big downside deal work with fewer countercyclical associates (again because right now we have the leverage). I am already working with recruiters to leave my group and I have no doubt with my credentials and my work experience I will find a profitable next gig while they are in a hiring freeze like every other big firm on the market. I do not have to spend the average of $4000 a month now to go to work so...why should I return? I went yesterday and surprise surprise an empty anchor day. A waste of fucking time.

[Anonymous User]

I really just cannot afford a 3 day return to office. I would love to keep my job, but honestly feel priced out of the city. Prior to losing my lease I had no money at the end of the month with my SLD payments. been doing this job for about 3 years and I only had about $4,000 saved.

Ok, let me ask you a question: You're 270,000 in debt. You take home about $10,000 a month. Rent in a safe commutable distance to work is conservatively, for one person, between $3,000-$5,000 a month. Ok, so let's go with the middle say I'm paying somewhere around $4000-4,500 just on a place to live. That's about 45% of my income. Then let's tack on $4,000 a month in student loan payments because remember, these jobs aren't forever, and who knows when they'll start the loans back and if I don't keep aggressively paying I'll be back in a situation with interest compounding at 7%! Thank god I managed to stop paying interest...four months ago! So, where are we, around $8,000 in budget? And how much does it cost to eat in NYC? Say $300-700 a month? Would you do this job and return to office if you only took home about $1000 a month or less? (obviously I regret going to law school, but here I am.)

Fair point, but I am someone who also graduated with over $300k in debt. I knew what I was signing up for and that I would have to stick it out longer in order to pay down my debt (if I wanted to have some lifestyle benefits, which for me has been worth it).

So it's not fair to say firms aren't paying us enough to live near the city (though I'm happy to make that argument and continue getting raises, I just can't say that with a straight face), it's a choice to pay $4k a month to pay down loans quickly (and I admit it's a smart choice), but there are other options.

Edit: As a reference point, when I was a first year, I only took home about $8k per month and paid $3500 for my housing.

I'm still not sure how the math works out that you've been paying loans off for 3 years and saved only 4k. It starts with the "you take home $10k per month"--what about bonuses? As a fourth year, you will make like $370k this year. Is it really not going to be possible to save any cash? I started with a comparable debt load and paid it off in my fourth year (in a major, non-NYC, non-Texas market). There are annoying things about biglaw, but "I'm financially unstable" is not the main one.

This math makes no sense to me. 3rd years make 307k with bonus. 10k take home is 120k a year. I am not aware of any taxing jurisdiction where people pay a 64ish% effective tax rate on 307k in the US. I think you are not including things in “take home” which you should and agree this is a bit hyperbolic.

wow I've never been mansplained my own bank account. I literally look at the deposit every two weeks as A SECOND YEAR ASSOCIATE but sure, you know more than I do about what I'm paid.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a third year and our firm has requested 3 days a week mandatory this week onwards. I don't plan to go in except when absolutely necessary. How are folks in other folks handling RTO mandates? Is it mass disobedience or are we just falling in line and letting go of what is the only way to sustain this lifestyle?

Today technically is an anchor day. I woke up to go in but missed the train (actually) from Boston, so I guess my "disobedience" takes this lame form today, but I hope it helps. I have a feeling people will comply until covid comes back through the city. The question is, do you, as an individual, have enough leverage not to comply, including enough work to bill over the next few months? I think going in a few times between now and December is probably the best policy, just to literally show your face. I have no intention to comply with multiple days, however. I let go of my lease in New York and have been aggressively saving every penny for a few months. Goal is to go enough not to be fired at this December review (which would be unlikely based on my practice) and to reassess after the winter if I want to keep the job for another year or if I've saved enough to maybe move on to my next job (if I do want to work through to 2024, then maybe I'll go in more).

As to the poster above, I think I'm #4. The pandemic has really changed me and I am definitely less social -- but, can you blame me? I think society has become unappealing and little is compelling about it, people are meaner, everything is more expensive and dangerous, etc. I personally don't feel connected to anyone or anything and don't feel like going to the office is where I will derive that meaning for me. I guess that means I need a new job. But, how was I supposed to know how I would react to simultaneous global crisis that ripped through my 20s and took society away? I feel that people keep speaking about those of us in the #4 category like we're just the equivalent of legal industry serial killers who never wanted to come in because it cuts into our backwoods murdering time, and therefore we deserve to have our livelihoods threatened for what was, only months ago, complying with the constantly changing mandates. At a certain point, it's just too much stress for little return.

I don't mind and often genuinely enjoy my job, even from home, and I want to do good work for the firm. But, my life (including financially with how expensive the city is now and the never ending uncertainty with student loan debt -- I have 200k+) I really just cannot afford a 3 day return to office. I would love to keep my job, but honestly feel priced out of the city. Prior to losing my lease I had no money at the end of the month with my SLD payments. been doing this job for about 3 years and I only had about $4,000 saved. It just is less profitable for me to do what they're asking than it is to move to regional mid law. Not that this is anybody's problem but my own. I couldn't have known graduating in 2020 what would happen to me these last two years. It's not spiteful, I'm just trying to fucking make it. But, firm management (the whole industry over) is just wildly disconnected with reality for some of us. It makes me depressed to feel like I've failed at even this simple thing and yet it is literally so untenable for my life right now that I don't know what else I can do but fail.

This is where it lost me. Certainly midlevel salaries don't buy us the nicest penthouse in Manhattan, but I don't think it's realistic to say we can't afford to live anywhere near the office (in any city). Certainly the world has gotten more expensive, but we have also seen salary increases (we can debate in another thread about whether those raises really beat inflation or not, but the point stands that we can afford a decently nice place to sleep and to eat).

This job is tough and you shouldn't have to feel like a failure because it is very hard and requires a lot of sacrifice, which many people decide is ultimately not worth it, and those people still go on to have very rewarding/successful careers.

Ok, let me ask you a question: You're 270,000 in debt. You take home about $10,000 a month. Rent in a safe commutable distance to work is conservatively, for one person, between $3,000-$5,000 a month. Ok, so let's go with the middle say I'm paying somewhere around $4000-4,500 just on a place to live. That's about 45% of my income. Then let's tack on $4,000 a month in student loan payments because remember, these jobs aren't forever, and who knows when they'll start the loans back and if I don't keep aggressively paying I'll be back in a situation with interest compounding at 7%! Thank god I managed to stop paying interest...four months ago! So, where are we, around $8,000 in budget? And how much does it cost to eat in NYC? Say $300-700 a month? Would you do this job and return to office if you only took home about $1000 a month or less? (obviously I regret going to law school, but here I am.)

If you are single and in your 20s, maybe don't pay $4000-4500 for a place to live? Get a roommate or two and split a 2-3 bedroom. Even if you insist on living alone in Manhattan, I have a hard time believing you cannot find a studio for less than 3K. I just searched on Apartments.com and saw a bunch.

I also think you need to change your mindset on what counts as "saved." If you are really overpaying your loans, I would put that in the saved bucket, at least mentally. If you hadn't done that, you would still owe that amount. It's part of why it's more helpful to think in terms of net worth, than just raw savings.

Hi Bosque, I think you're missing the point and I think this is patronizing. I've lived in New York with roommates, flex rooms, craig's list roommates, dorm rooms, sublets, couches, etc...every manner of lifestyle you could think, I've lived in over the last decade in that city. I understand how to bring cost "down." The reality is bringing it down another $1000 a month so that I can eat and save "some" money is not really the kind of lifestyle that makes the misery of returning to the office and doing this 24-7 availability job worth it. I am not the only person who feels this. I did say I'm not suffering the most in the world, I'm aware of that, but like, I don't need to suffer additionally. I really don't think you've thought through your answer after reading my posts. I have a chronic health care condition that can become life threatening AT RANDOM and is a co-morbid condition for bad covid reactions. I do not want to be continuously exposed through my fucking roommates, if you'd been thinking critically before you offered your judgmental 2 cents maybe that would've come to mind. Do you have any idea how stressful it is to live with a virtual stranger to afford your living arrangement and to watch them constantly go clubbing regardless of the fact that they could literally kill you? I was constructively evicted for a month in 2020 when my roommate got covid on halloween and couldn't return until she was better at THANKSGIVING. Three vaccines and I had long covid in the winter while my SO had a cold.

The point is that, unlike many people in the market, I have leverage to go elsewhere from my firm. All of the inconveniences, including living with multiple roommates when I have a long distance significant other, at 28 years old, so that I can spend $3,500 a month instead of $4,500 ($3500 - how much I was spending when I did my lease) makes it not worth it for me or others in positions similar to me to give our all for rto. We exist, we deserve consideration, it is a work place issue if you want us to be coming into the work place, and if you don't then you'll just face big downside deal work with fewer countercyclical associates (again because right now we have the leverage). I am already working with recruiters to leave my group and I have no doubt with my credentials and my work experience I will find a profitable next gig while they are in a hiring freeze like every other big firm on the market. I do not have to spend the average of $4000 a month now to go to work so...why should I return? I went yesterday and surprise surprise an empty anchor day. A waste of fucking time.

Whatever you’re doing, you’re just doing it wrong. I’m the same year as you, not from a privileged background at all, not supported by parents and I’ve saved/invested over 100k (even with this down market). I also have talked to several friends who have saved similar amounts.

You did note that you had other debt to pay down which may be the real hamper hear but acting like associates can only save 4K after a couple years—especially with the loan moratorium—is absolutely ridiculous and reeks of someone needing a reality check.

Get a roommate. Eat out less. Don’t blow your money on luxury goods. Hell I certainly don’t consider myself frugal and enjoy the finer things in life and I’ve still managed to stash plenty.

A someone that comes from a family that never made much money and legitimately didn’t have the means to save more than nominal savings, hearing these takes from people in their 20s making over 200k really irks me. At the very least acknowledge that you’ve managed to pay down absolutely huge amounts of debt that you otherwise would not have been able to without this job.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a third year and our firm has requested 3 days a week mandatory this week onwards. I don't plan to go in except when absolutely necessary. How are folks in other folks handling RTO mandates? Is it mass disobedience or are we just falling in line and letting go of what is the only way to sustain this lifestyle?

Today technically is an anchor day. I woke up to go in but missed the train (actually) from Boston, so I guess my "disobedience" takes this lame form today, but I hope it helps. I have a feeling people will comply until covid comes back through the city. The question is, do you, as an individual, have enough leverage not to comply, including enough work to bill over the next few months? I think going in a few times between now and December is probably the best policy, just to literally show your face. I have no intention to comply with multiple days, however. I let go of my lease in New York and have been aggressively saving every penny for a few months. Goal is to go enough not to be fired at this December review (which would be unlikely based on my practice) and to reassess after the winter if I want to keep the job for another year or if I've saved enough to maybe move on to my next job (if I do want to work through to 2024, then maybe I'll go in more).

As to the poster above, I think I'm #4. The pandemic has really changed me and I am definitely less social -- but, can you blame me? I think society has become unappealing and little is compelling about it, people are meaner, everything is more expensive and dangerous, etc. I personally don't feel connected to anyone or anything and don't feel like going to the office is where I will derive that meaning for me. I guess that means I need a new job. But, how was I supposed to know how I would react to simultaneous global crisis that ripped through my 20s and took society away? I feel that people keep speaking about those of us in the #4 category like we're just the equivalent of legal industry serial killers who never wanted to come in because it cuts into our backwoods murdering time, and therefore we deserve to have our livelihoods threatened for what was, only months ago, complying with the constantly changing mandates. At a certain point, it's just too much stress for little return.

I don't mind and often genuinely enjoy my job, even from home, and I want to do good work for the firm. But, my life (including financially with how expensive the city is now and the never ending uncertainty with student loan debt -- I have 200k+) I really just cannot afford a 3 day return to office. I would love to keep my job, but honestly feel priced out of the city. Prior to losing my lease I had no money at the end of the month with my SLD payments. been doing this job for about 3 years and I only had about $4,000 saved. It just is less profitable for me to do what they're asking than it is to move to regional mid law. Not that this is anybody's problem but my own. I couldn't have known graduating in 2020 what would happen to me these last two years. It's not spiteful, I'm just trying to fucking make it. But, firm management (the whole industry over) is just wildly disconnected with reality for some of us. It makes me depressed to feel like I've failed at even this simple thing and yet it is literally so untenable for my life right now that I don't know what else I can do but fail.

This is where it lost me. Certainly midlevel salaries don't buy us the nicest penthouse in Manhattan, but I don't think it's realistic to say we can't afford to live anywhere near the office (in any city). Certainly the world has gotten more expensive, but we have also seen salary increases (we can debate in another thread about whether those raises really beat inflation or not, but the point stands that we can afford a decently nice place to sleep and to eat).

This job is tough and you shouldn't have to feel like a failure because it is very hard and requires a lot of sacrifice, which many people decide is ultimately not worth it, and those people still go on to have very rewarding/successful careers.

Ok, let me ask you a question: You're 270,000 in debt. You take home about $10,000 a month. Rent in a safe commutable distance to work is conservatively, for one person, between $3,000-$5,000 a month. Ok, so let's go with the middle say I'm paying somewhere around $4000-4,500 just on a place to live. That's about 45% of my income. Then let's tack on $4,000 a month in student loan payments because remember, these jobs aren't forever, and who knows when they'll start the loans back and if I don't keep aggressively paying I'll be back in a situation with interest compounding at 7%! Thank god I managed to stop paying interest...four months ago! So, where are we, around $8,000 in budget? And how much does it cost to eat in NYC? Say $300-700 a month? Would you do this job and return to office if you only took home about $1000 a month or less? (obviously I regret going to law school, but here I am.)

If you are single and in your 20s, maybe don't pay $4000-4500 for a place to live? Get a roommate or two and split a 2-3 bedroom. Even if you insist on living alone in Manhattan, I have a hard time believing you cannot find a studio for less than 3K. I just searched on Apartments.com and saw a bunch.

I also think you need to change your mindset on what counts as "saved." If you are really overpaying your loans, I would put that in the saved bucket, at least mentally. If you hadn't done that, you would still owe that amount. It's part of why it's more helpful to think in terms of net worth, than just raw savings.

Hi Bosque, I think you're missing the point and I think this is patronizing. I've lived in New York with roommates, flex rooms, craig's list roommates, dorm rooms, sublets, couches, etc...every manner of lifestyle you could think, I've lived in over the last decade in that city. I understand how to bring cost "down." The reality is bringing it down another $1000 a month so that I can eat and save "some" money is not really the kind of lifestyle that makes the misery of returning to the office and doing this 24-7 availability job worth it. I am not the only person who feels this. I did say I'm not suffering the most in the world, I'm aware of that, but like, I don't need to suffer additionally. I really don't think you've thought through your answer after reading my posts. I have a chronic health care condition that can become life threatening AT RANDOM and is a co-morbid condition for bad covid reactions. I do not want to be continuously exposed through my fucking roommates, if you'd been thinking critically before you offered your judgmental 2 cents maybe that would've come to mind. Do you have any idea how stressful it is to live with a virtual stranger to afford your living arrangement and to watch them constantly go clubbing regardless of the fact that they could literally kill you? I was constructively evicted for a month in 2020 when my roommate got covid on halloween and couldn't return until she was better at THANKSGIVING. Three vaccines and I had long covid in the winter while my SO had a cold.

The point is that, unlike many people in the market, I have leverage to go elsewhere from my firm. All of the inconveniences, including living with multiple roommates when I have a long distance significant other, at 28 years old, so that I can spend $3,500 a month instead of $4,500 ($3500 - how much I was spending when I did my lease) makes it not worth it for me or others in positions similar to me to give our all for rto. We exist, we deserve consideration, it is a work place issue if you want us to be coming into the work place, and if you don't then you'll just face big downside deal work with fewer countercyclical associates (again because right now we have the leverage). I am already working with recruiters to leave my group and I have no doubt with my credentials and my work experience I will find a profitable next gig while they are in a hiring freeze like every other big firm on the market. I do not have to spend the average of $4000 a month now to go to work so...why should I return? I went yesterday and surprise surprise an empty anchor day. A waste of fucking time.

Whatever you’re doing, you’re just doing it wrong. I’m the same year as you, not from a privileged background at all, not supported by parents and I’ve saved/invested over 100k (even with this down market). I also have talked to several friends who have saved similar amounts.

You did note that you had other debt to pay down which may be the real hamper hear but acting like associates can only save 4K after a couple years—especially with the loan moratorium—is absolutely ridiculous and reeks of someone needing a reality check.

Get a roommate. Eat out less. Don’t blow your money on luxury goods. Hell I certainly don’t consider myself frugal and enjoy the finer things in life and I’ve still managed to stash plenty.

A someone that comes from a family that never made much money and legitimately didn’t have the means to save more than nominal savings, hearing these takes from people in their 20s making over 200k really irks me. At the very least acknowledge that you’ve managed to pay down absolutely huge amounts of debt that you otherwise would not have been able to without this job.

do not pass go, do not stop, immediately go fuck yourself. -- OP (of this comment thread)

*edit -- you're so good at money, and you're so smart at investing why post anon? I'm on anon cause I'm easily identifiable and discussing non compliance with work mandates. You're just on anon to shit on me and make yourself better? If you're so good at investing post your real name let's start dm'ing! Not one thing you said is actionable, helpful, identifiable as constructive. That's why you chose anon right? You don't have anything to offer me but bullshit and more critique and can't do it with your real name because you're kind of a weakling aren't you? Do you feel better about yourself?