Penn Law Honors Forum

[Anonymous User]

Jesus, this is nuts. I'm sitting at a 3.85 at the beginning of 3L and I'm worried I'm not even going to swing cum.

Would much prefer that, then needing to be in the top 5% of my class just to get a 3.8 because NYU refuses to grade inflate.

This seems shortsighted - one imagines that the Latin honors/Order of the Coif will make up for any "low" GPA. Meanwhile, at Penn there's some ambiguousness regarding whether straight grades alone is enough to allow Latin Honors at graduation... that's pretty darn rough. See the thread in judicial clerkships for the degree of confusion - nobody has a clue where they are.

I wonder if this is worse for OCI than clerking. No info on where you stand in the class = clueless bidding. But do judges know about grades at each school? (To be fair, NYU has 2L honors for judges.)

Isn’t that literally the entire point of the opaque system/grade inflation though? Firms at OCI also have trouble telling where you stand but your transcript looks decent enough so they decide your grades are good enough.

Yes, but most other schools give 25/75 GPA percentiles for callbacks or something similar for students bidding. Penn does not because they refuse to acknowledge the concept of a numerical GPA.

[Anonymous User]

Jesus, this is nuts. I'm sitting at a 3.85 at the beginning of 3L and I'm worried I'm not even going to swing cum.

Would much prefer that, then needing to be in the top 5% of my class just to get a 3.8 because NYU refuses to grade inflate.

This seems shortsighted - one imagines that the Latin honors/Order of the Coif will make up for any "low" GPA. Meanwhile, at Penn there's some ambiguousness regarding whether straight grades alone is enough to allow Latin Honors at graduation... that's pretty darn rough. See the thread in judicial clerkships for the degree of confusion - nobody has a clue where they are.

I wonder if this is worse for OCI than clerking. No info on where you stand in the class = clueless bidding. But do judges know about grades at each school? (To be fair, NYU has 2L honors for judges.)

Isn’t that literally the entire point of the opaque system/grade inflation though? Firms at OCI also have trouble telling where you stand but your transcript looks decent enough so they decide your grades are good enough.

Yes, but most other schools give 25/75 GPA percentiles for callbacks or something similar for students bidding. Penn does not because they refuse to acknowledge the concept of a numerical GPA.

Does anyone know when Penn tells its graduating class about honors and Coif? Is it when you show up for graduation and see your name listed in the program or do we find out in advance?

[Anonymous User]

Faculty votes Friday AM (May 12th) and it is e-mailed to the entire graduating class that PM

[Anonymous User]

Faculty votes Friday AM (May 12th) and it is e-mailed to the entire graduating class that PM

Do they actually vote on candidates individually—that seems so bizarre for anything outside of Summa rather than just deciding on a cutoff.

[Anonymous User]

Faculty votes Friday AM (May 12th) and it is e-mailed to the entire graduating class that PM

Do they actually vote on candidates individually—that seems so bizarre for anything outside of Summa rather than just deciding on a cutoff.

I think its the latter. They vote on a cutoff. This is all rumors though...

[Anonymous User]

Faculty votes Friday AM (May 12th) and it is e-mailed to the entire graduating class that PM

Do they actually vote on candidates individually—that seems so bizarre for anything outside of Summa rather than just deciding on a cutoff.

I think its the latter. They vote on a cutoff. This is all rumors though...

The lack of clarity is so obnoxious.

[Anonymous User]

Faculty votes Friday AM (May 12th) and it is e-mailed to the entire graduating class that PM

Do they actually vote on candidates individually—that seems so bizarre for anything outside of Summa rather than just deciding on a cutoff.

I think its the latter. They vote on a cutoff. This is all rumors though...

The lack of clarity is so obnoxious.

Wouldn't be Penn Law without continuing to just leave students in the dark about everything! But I didn't realize that's what the faculty vote was for, I thought it was some dumb formality, so good to know.

[Anonymous User]

I am so glad to be leaving Penn "Carey" Law. From the clerkships mess to OCS to Wax to this, it's enough already.

[Anonymous User]

The faculty meet the Friday before graduation to decide honors and awards. The lists are emailed that afternoon to the graduating class.

Faculty determine the cutoffs for summa/magna/cum and Coif after seeing the list of anonymized GPAs. In deciding the summas, they can look at the number of graded vs. ungraded credits a student has taken.

The awards are decided by faculty vote. For the best performance in a subject prizes, they're apparently given the list of names of the highest-scoring student in each section and make a selection.

[Anonymous User]

The faculty meet the Friday before graduation to decide honors and awards. The lists are emailed that afternoon to the graduating class.

Faculty determine the cutoffs for summa/magna/cum and Coif after seeing the list of anonymized GPAs. In deciding the summas, they can look at the number of graded vs. ungraded credits a student has taken.

The awards are decided by faculty vote. For the best performance in a subject prizes, they're apparently given the list of names of the highest-scoring student in each section and make a selection.

So there should be a hard pure gpa cutoff for magna that is roughly consistent each year then right?

[Anonymous User]

The faculty meet the Friday before graduation to decide honors and awards. The lists are emailed that afternoon to the graduating class.

Faculty determine the cutoffs for summa/magna/cum and Coif after seeing the list of anonymized GPAs. In deciding the summas, they can look at the number of graded vs. ungraded credits a student has taken.

The awards are decided by faculty vote. For the best performance in a subject prizes, they're apparently given the list of names of the highest-scoring student in each section and make a selection.

So there should be a hard pure gpa cutoff for magna that is roughly consistent each year then right?

Yes but will be hard to compare to the classes affected by COVID. 3L GPAs should be lower than last year's graduates (who missed second semester of 1L) and higher than classes of 21 and 20 (who missed semester of 2/3L).

Friend had a 3.9 last year and got Coif but not Summa. Seems like 3.7 is fine for Cum most years

[Anonymous User]

The faculty meet the Friday before graduation to decide honors and awards. The lists are emailed that afternoon to the graduating class.

Faculty determine the cutoffs for summa/magna/cum and Coif after seeing the list of anonymized GPAs. In deciding the summas, they can look at the number of graded vs. ungraded credits a student has taken.

The awards are decided by faculty vote. For the best performance in a subject prizes, they're apparently given the list of names of the highest-scoring student in each section and make a selection.

So there should be a hard pure gpa cutoff for magna that is roughly consistent each year then right?

Yes but will be hard to compare to the classes affected by COVID. 3L GPAs should be lower than last year's graduates (who missed second semester of 1L) and higher than classes of 21 and 20 (who missed semester of 2/3L).

Friend had a 3.9 last year and got Coif but not Summa. Seems like 3.7 is fine for Cum most years

Got it, thanks. Any idea what the magna cutoff was last year?

[Anonymous User]

Nah, sorry dawg

[Anonymous User]

I am so glad to be leaving Penn "Carey" Law. From the clerkships mess to OCS to Wax to this, it's enough already.

Same.

[Anonymous User]

Shouldn't this be under the law school students forum?

[Anonymous User]

I am so glad to be leaving Penn "Carey" Law. From the clerkships mess to OCS to Wax to this, it's enough already.

Same.

Unhelpful carping. The clerkship process sucks everywhere, and it isn't even that bad at Penn. I doubt you've ever seen Wax on campus let alone heard her speak.

For the posters asking about previous years, here are a couple of threads:

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=312002&hilit=penn+law+magna
(Some data points from the last couple of years. The cut-offs seem high party due to Covid.)

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=186258&hilit=penn+cum&start=125
(See page 6 for some 2017 data points.)

[Anonymous User]

I am so glad to be leaving Penn "Carey" Law. From the clerkships mess to OCS to Wax to this, it's enough already.

Same.

Unhelpful carping. The clerkship process sucks everywhere, and it isn't even that bad at Penn. I doubt you've ever seen Wax on campus let alone heard her speak.

For the posters asking about previous years, here are a couple of threads:

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=312002&hilit=penn+law+magna
(Some data points from the last couple of years. The cut-offs seem high party due to Covid.)

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=186258&hilit=penn+cum&start=125
(See page 6 for some 2017 data points.)

I haven’t heard of other schools’ clerkship advisors mailing apps to the wrong judges!

[Anonymous User]

I am so glad to be leaving Penn "Carey" Law. From the clerkships mess to OCS to Wax to this, it's enough already.

Same.

Unhelpful carping. The clerkship process sucks everywhere, and it isn't even that bad at Penn. I doubt you've ever seen Wax on campus let alone heard her speak.

For the posters asking about previous years, here are a couple of threads:

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=312002&hilit=penn+law+magna
(Some data points from the last couple of years. The cut-offs seem high party due to Covid.)

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=186258&hilit=penn+cum&start=125
(See page 6 for some 2017 data points.)

Wax sucks. Hardly any fed soc members wanted to be associated with her back in 2020 and even less so these days from what I hear.

[Anonymous User]

I am so glad to be leaving Penn "Carey" Law. From the clerkships mess to OCS to Wax to this, it's enough already.

Same.

Unhelpful carping. The clerkship process sucks everywhere, and it isn't even that bad at Penn. I doubt you've ever seen Wax on campus let alone heard her speak.

For the posters asking about previous years, here are a couple of threads:

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=312002&hilit=penn+law+magna
(Some data points from the last couple of years. The cut-offs seem high party due to Covid.)

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=186258&hilit=penn+cum&start=125
(See page 6 for some 2017 data points.)

Wax sucks. Hardly any fed soc members wanted to be associated with her back in 2020 and even less so these days from what I hear.

Just because doing so is quite costly and they're cowards (which is justifiable)

Not the above commenter, but agree with their sentiment. No one sees her let alone interacts with her.

[Anonymous User]

I am so glad to be leaving Penn "Carey" Law. From the clerkships mess to OCS to Wax to this, it's enough already.

Same.

Unhelpful carping. The clerkship process sucks everywhere, and it isn't even that bad at Penn. I doubt you've ever seen Wax on campus let alone heard her speak.

For the posters asking about previous years, here are a couple of threads:

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=312002&hilit=penn+law+magna
(Some data points from the last couple of years. The cut-offs seem high party due to Covid.)

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=186258&hilit=penn+cum&start=125
(See page 6 for some 2017 data points.)

Wax sucks. Hardly any fed soc members wanted to be associated with her back in 2020 and even less so these days from what I hear.

Just because doing so is quite costly and they're cowards (which is justifiable)

Not the above commenter, but agree with their sentiment. No one sees her let alone interacts with her.

I would like to take a black letter Remedies course, and it’s only taught by Amy Wax, so her continued presence does affect students.

[Anonymous User]

I am so glad to be leaving Penn "Carey" Law. From the clerkships mess to OCS to Wax to this, it's enough already.

Same.

Unhelpful carping. The clerkship process sucks everywhere, and it isn't even that bad at Penn. I doubt you've ever seen Wax on campus let alone heard her speak.

For the posters asking about previous years, here are a couple of threads:

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=312002&hilit=penn+law+magna
(Some data points from the last couple of years. The cut-offs seem high party due to Covid.)

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=186258&hilit=penn+cum&start=125
(See page 6 for some 2017 data points.)

Wax sucks. Hardly any fed soc members wanted to be associated with her back in 2020 and even less so these days from what I hear.

Just because doing so is quite costly and they're cowards (which is justifiable)

Not the above commenter, but agree with their sentiment. No one sees her let alone interacts with her.

I would like to take a black letter Remedies course, and it’s only taught by Amy Wax, so her continued presence does affect students.

That's on the school for not having someone teach that course. It wouldn't make a difference if she dropped dead tomorrow—they're just not offering it.

Not one of the above commenters, but agree with what they're saying - 99% of the student body has never seen or interacted with her. I think she's taught a grand total of eight students this year? Something like that.

[Anonymous User]

I am so glad to be leaving Penn "Carey" Law. From the clerkships mess to OCS to Wax to this, it's enough already.

Same.

Unhelpful carping. The clerkship process sucks everywhere, and it isn't even that bad at Penn. I doubt you've ever seen Wax on campus let alone heard her speak.

For the posters asking about previous years, here are a couple of threads:

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=312002&hilit=penn+law+magna
(Some data points from the last couple of years. The cut-offs seem high party due to Covid.)

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=186258&hilit=penn+cum&start=125
(See page 6 for some 2017 data points.)

Wax sucks. Hardly any fed soc members wanted to be associated with her back in 2020 and even less so these days from what I hear.

Just because doing so is quite costly and they're cowards (which is justifiable)

Not the above commenter, but agree with their sentiment. No one sees her let alone interacts with her.

I would like to take a black letter Remedies course, and it’s only taught by Amy Wax, so her continued presence does affect students.

That's on the school for not having someone teach that course. It wouldn't make a difference if she dropped dead tomorrow—they're just not offering it.

Not one of the above commenters, but agree with what they're saying - 99% of the student body has never seen or interacted with her. I think she's taught a grand total of eight students this year? Something like that.

It wouldn't make sense to have two remedies courses, but the school would probably have another professor teach the course if Wax was no longer at Penn (as they do this with other doctrinals)

[Anonymous User]

Same.

Unhelpful carping. The clerkship process sucks everywhere, and it isn't even that bad at Penn. I doubt you've ever seen Wax on campus let alone heard her speak.

For the posters asking about previous years, here are a couple of threads:

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=312002&hilit=penn+law+magna
(Some data points from the last couple of years. The cut-offs seem high party due to Covid.)

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=186258&hilit=penn+cum&start=125
(See page 6 for some 2017 data points.)

Wax sucks. Hardly any fed soc members wanted to be associated with her back in 2020 and even less so these days from what I hear.

Just because doing so is quite costly and they're cowards (which is justifiable)

Not the above commenter, but agree with their sentiment. No one sees her let alone interacts with her.

I would like to take a black letter Remedies course, and it’s only taught by Amy Wax, so her continued presence does affect students.

That's on the school for not having someone teach that course. It wouldn't make a difference if she dropped dead tomorrow—they're just not offering it.

Not one of the above commenters, but agree with what they're saying - 99% of the student body has never seen or interacted with her. I think she's taught a grand total of eight students this year? Something like that.

It wouldn't make sense to have two remedies courses, but the school would probably have another professor teach the course if Wax was no longer at Penn (as they do this with other doctrinals)

They offer a remedies class taught by Judge Beetlestone from EDPA. Not identical but I imagine it would get the job done.

[Anonymous User]

Unhelpful carping. The clerkship process sucks everywhere, and it isn't even that bad at Penn. I doubt you've ever seen Wax on campus let alone heard her speak.

For the posters asking about previous years, here are a couple of threads:

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=312002&hilit=penn+law+magna
(Some data points from the last couple of years. The cut-offs seem high party due to Covid.)

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=186258&hilit=penn+cum&start=125
(See page 6 for some 2017 data points.)

Wax sucks. Hardly any fed soc members wanted to be associated with her back in 2020 and even less so these days from what I hear.

Just because doing so is quite costly and they're cowards (which is justifiable)

Not the above commenter, but agree with their sentiment. No one sees her let alone interacts with her.

I would like to take a black letter Remedies course, and it’s only taught by Amy Wax, so her continued presence does affect students.

That's on the school for not having someone teach that course. It wouldn't make a difference if she dropped dead tomorrow—they're just not offering it.

Not one of the above commenters, but agree with what they're saying - 99% of the student body has never seen or interacted with her. I think she's taught a grand total of eight students this year? Something like that.

It wouldn't make sense to have two remedies courses, but the school would probably have another professor teach the course if Wax was no longer at Penn (as they do this with other doctrinals)

They offer a remedies class taught by Judge Beetlestone from EDPA. Not identical but I imagine it would get the job done.

A couple of years ago the higher ups made a commitment—in response to some rubble-rousing by one particularly annoying individual who liked to get his name in the press—to offer a non-Wax alternative to everything she teaches (I.e., remedies and the conservative legal thought seminar). The Beetlestone remedies seminar is that class, but it's an imperfect substitute and I know there's a desire among students to have an actual doctrinal remedies course.

[Anonymous User]

in response to some rubble-rousing by one particularly annoying individual who liked to get his name in the press

Yes, the annoying rabble rousing of someone who did not want to be forced to take a class with a known bigot.