At what point in your legal career does where you went to law school and your law school grades stop mattering? Forum

[LittleRedCorvette]

Grades don't matter after your first job. School always matters.

Certain firms definitely care about lateral associate grades. GDC is one.

What are others?

Gibson is the only one, you are right. No other firm cares about grades for lateral associates.

[Anonymous User]

Is it standard to keep GPA on resume for lateraling or remove? I have a good GPA but if it's tacky to keep it I'll remove.

[Anonymous User]

Is it standard to keep GPA on resume for lateraling or remove? I have a good GPA but if it's tacky to keep it I'll remove.

If you received latin honors or the equivalent (e.g., "Honors" or "High Honors" at Chicago or "James Kent Scholar" or "Harlan Fiske Stone Scholar" at Columbia) then keep that on your resume. But like... a numerical GPA? Delete that. It's tacky.

[Sackboy]

Is it standard to keep GPA on resume for lateraling or remove? I have a good GPA but if it's tacky to keep it I'll remove.

If you received latin honors or the equivalent (e.g., "Honors" or "High Honors" at Chicago or "James Kent Scholar" or "Harlan Fiske Stone Scholar" at Columbia) then keep that on your resume. But like... a numerical GPA? Delete that. It's tacky.

+1

[Anonymous User]

Is it standard to keep GPA on resume for lateraling or remove? I have a good GPA but if it's tacky to keep it I'll remove.

If you received latin honors or the equivalent (e.g., "Honors" or "High Honors" at Chicago or "James Kent Scholar" or "Harlan Fiske Stone Scholar" at Columbia) then keep that on your resume. But like... a numerical GPA? Delete that. It's tacky.

+1

I left my GPA on my resume when applying to in-house jobs as a 5th year and it definitely seemed to help me get interviews (was mentioned frequently in screening interviews by in-house recruiters who often aren’t lawyers and might have no idea what e.g. Kent or Stone means). It was mentioned more than the V5 firm that I was leaving as evidence of competence. Would caveat that I graduated top 1% of my class would probably not recommend doing this if you have less than like a 3.8 or 3.9 because your GPA will be viewed by people who don’t understand law schools grading/curves and will apply an UG lens to it.

[Anonymous User]

Is it standard to keep GPA on resume for lateraling or remove? I have a good GPA but if it's tacky to keep it I'll remove.

If you received latin honors or the equivalent (e.g., "Honors" or "High Honors" at Chicago or "James Kent Scholar" or "Harlan Fiske Stone Scholar" at Columbia) then keep that on your resume. But like... a numerical GPA? Delete that. It's tacky.

+1

I left my GPA on my resume when applying to in-house jobs as a 5th year and it definitely seemed to help me get interviews (was mentioned frequently in screening interviews by in-house recruiters who often aren’t lawyers and might have no idea what e.g. Kent or Stone means). It was mentioned more than the V5 firm that I was leaving as evidence of competence. Would caveat that I graduated top 1% of my class would probably not recommend doing this if you have less than like a 3.8 or 3.9 because your GPA will be viewed by people who don’t understand law schools grading/curves and will apply an UG lens to it.

Would think that if you're top 1% you could show that with summa/magna/coif? But yeah top 1% is different.

[Anonymous User]

Grades don't matter after your first job. School always matters.

Certain firms definitely care about lateral associate grades. GDC is one.

What are others?

Gibson is the only one, you are right. No other firm cares about grades for lateral associates.

Lol what a miserable person....
This was a good faith question-- I'm a junior associate with eh grades from a "good" school and looking to lateral. Since Gibson and maybe Covington are the ones I'm always hearing, I'm genuinely eager to know others

[LittleRedCorvette]

Grades don't matter after your first job. School always matters.

Certain firms definitely care about lateral associate grades. GDC is one.

What are others?

Gibson is the only one, you are right. No other firm cares about grades for lateral associates.

Lol what a miserable person....
This was a good faith question-- I'm a junior associate with eh grades from a "good" school and looking to lateral. Since Gibson and maybe Covington are the ones I'm always hearing, I'm genuinely eager to know others

Thanks for the personal attack. That's typically the best way to get information.

[Anonymous User]

Grades don't matter after your first job. School always matters.

Certain firms definitely care about lateral associate grades. GDC is one.

What are others?

Gibson is the only one, you are right. No other firm cares about grades for lateral associates.

Lol what a miserable person....
This was a good faith question-- I'm a junior associate with eh grades from a "good" school and looking to lateral. Since Gibson and maybe Covington are the ones I'm always hearing, I'm genuinely eager to know others

I'm a midlevel at a V40 with substantial deal exposure. Had mediocre grades at a T20 school. Have gotten interview offers from higher ranked Vault firms than my current firm, but haven't gotten any traction from the T10 and some T20 firms due to my grades. It's a little surprising/nonsensical given the fact that I can clearly do the work, but as we all know law firms tend to be very prestige driven, and some place more of an emphasis on academic excellence than others. The firms that I've found care are sensitive about grades are Gibson, Simpson, Davis Polk, Cleary, and Debevoise, among others.

[Anonymous User]

They never stop mattering entirely. The more senior you get, the less the actual grades tend to matter, but school and honors are at least a factor all the way through. Even once you're a partner, they matter somewhat because the "shining resume" starts to matter more as you get included in pitch books, look for recognitions, etc. (The grind never... ever stops.)

I will say that the more senior you get, some partners will stop caring about that stuff. Others will not. I am personally of the crowd that has had extremely good experiences with people from somewhat lower-ranked schools that are hard workers--they invariably have extremely good grades to have made it in the door--so I am an advocate for giving that category of folks a very hard look. People think it's odd coming from me because I am one of those top school with summa type of people, but in a way, that makes the argument somewhat more genuine coming from me, I think. But I still tend to lose those arguments.

I also think this varies by practice group.

Source: V10 partner.

[Anonymous User]

They never stop mattering entirely. The more senior you get, the less the actual grades tend to matter, but school and honors are at least a factor all the way through. Even once you're a partner, they matter somewhat because the "shining resume" starts to matter more as you get included in pitch books, look for recognitions, etc. (The grind never... ever stops.)

I will say that the more senior you get, some partners will stop caring about that stuff. Others will not. I am personally of the crowd that has had extremely good experiences with people from somewhat lower-ranked schools that are hard workers--they invariably have extremely good grades to have made it in the door--so I am an advocate for giving that category of folks a very hard look. People think it's odd coming from me because I am one of those top school with summa type of people, but in a way, that makes the argument somewhat more genuine coming from me, I think. But I still tend to lose those arguments.

I also think this varies by practice group.

Source: V10 partner.

Presumably grades stop mattering for Yalies though, right? There’s no Latin Honors or equivalent so you’d have to be looking at someone’s transcript to know how they did.

[Anonymous User]

They never stop mattering entirely. The more senior you get, the less the actual grades tend to matter, but school and honors are at least a factor all the way through. Even once you're a partner, they matter somewhat because the "shining resume" starts to matter more as you get included in pitch books, look for recognitions, etc. (The grind never... ever stops.)

I will say that the more senior you get, some partners will stop caring about that stuff. Others will not. I am personally of the crowd that has had extremely good experiences with people from somewhat lower-ranked schools that are hard workers--they invariably have extremely good grades to have made it in the door--so I am an advocate for giving that category of folks a very hard look. People think it's odd coming from me because I am one of those top school with summa type of people, but in a way, that makes the argument somewhat more genuine coming from me, I think. But I still tend to lose those arguments.

I also think this varies by practice group.

Source: V10 partner.

Presumably grades stop mattering for Yalies though, right? There’s no Latin Honors or equivalent so you’d have to be looking at someone’s transcript to know how they did.

That’s what clerkships are for

[Anonymous User]

They never stop mattering entirely. The more senior you get, the less the actual grades tend to matter, but school and honors are at least a factor all the way through. Even once you're a partner, they matter somewhat because the "shining resume" starts to matter more as you get included in pitch books, look for recognitions, etc. (The grind never... ever stops.)

I will say that the more senior you get, some partners will stop caring about that stuff. Others will not. I am personally of the crowd that has had extremely good experiences with people from somewhat lower-ranked schools that are hard workers--they invariably have extremely good grades to have made it in the door--so I am an advocate for giving that category of folks a very hard look. People think it's odd coming from me because I am one of those top school with summa type of people, but in a way, that makes the argument somewhat more genuine coming from me, I think. But I still tend to lose those arguments.

I also think this varies by practice group.

Source: V10 partner.

Presumably grades stop mattering for Yalies though, right? There’s no Latin Honors or equivalent so you’d have to be looking at someone’s transcript to know how they did.

That’s what clerkships are for

What about Yalies in elite corporate departments?

[Anonymous User]

Once you get a biglaw job, school matters a lot less. But it seems like many (not all) have chip on their shoulders so it continues to matter to those ppl internally.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a partner, and I have no freaking clue where 95% of the other attorneys at my firm went to school. Every now and then I will look on people's bios, but that's really just to figure out when they graduated so I have an idea how senior they are (and what their technical background is, as I'm in IP litigation). The school name usually enters my brain and exits within a day.

That said, it always matters in that it sets you up for your first job (in the same way that college mattered in that it set you up for law school, high school mattered in that it set you up for college, ect). But if you find your way to the job you want, I doubt school is going to matter for any job after that (except maybe a Judicial appointment, but that's political).

[Sackboy]

Maybe I'm cynical, but anyone on here who gives advise as a "partner" I instantly assume is an income partner. People should know better these days to specify when the majority of all partners are income. If you don't specify, I'm just going to assume that you're trying to make others assume you're an equity partner when you're not for that extra swiggity swag.

[crazywafflez]

I'm not a partner, but I think grades stop mattering once you're in BL (to an extent) and after a couple years. I think schools might matter for certain positions etc.
But in general I think with every year grades and school become less important and experience becomes more important.

[Anonymous User]

I'm not a partner, but I think grades stop mattering once you're in BL (to an extent) and after a couple years. I think schools might matter for certain positions etc.
But in general I think with every year grades and school become less important and experience becomes more important.

This isn't wrong, but schools can matter quite a bit for jobs that require impressing lay-people. Like... it's not irrelevant that virtually all of the SCOTUS justices went to Harvard or Yale. As others on the thread have noted, the same is true for any job requiring political buy-in from non-lawyers, like agency heads, district court judges, state attorneys general, U.S. Attorneys, district attorneys, and the like. There was a partner at a NYC biglaw firm I worked at who would love to tell clients, "We have [such and such junior associates] working on your case. [Junior associate 1] just graduated from Harvard law and [Junior associate 2] was top of her class at NYU" and things like that.

[Anonymous User]

Does clerking help reduce the stigma from a low ranked school, if you’re trying to get traditional BigLaw?

[Anonymous User]

Does clerking help reduce the stigma from a low ranked school, if you’re trying to get traditional BigLaw?

Depends on the clerkship. It will reflect your "prestige," just like your school will. A non-NY/Delaware state court clerkship isn't going to wipe away your school, but a federal appellate clerkship will open many more doors regardless of your school.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe I'm cynical, but anyone on here who gives advise as a "partner" I instantly assume is an income partner. People should know better these days to specify when the majority of all partners are income. If you don't specify, I'm just going to assume that you're trying to make others assume you're an equity partner when you're not for that extra swiggity swag.

I'm the V10 (equity) partner from above. I tend not to say that because I don't want to come across as arrogant about it, but for this particular thread I thought the view of someone that is more senior would be helpful. A lot of people think it stops mattering and that's just not right, unfortunately.

[nixy]

I'm not a partner, but I think grades stop mattering once you're in BL (to an extent) and after a couple years. I think schools might matter for certain positions etc.
But in general I think with every year grades and school become less important and experience becomes more important.

This isn't wrong, but schools can matter quite a bit for jobs that require impressing lay-people. Like... it's not irrelevant that virtually all of the SCOTUS justices went to Harvard or Yale. As others on the thread have noted, the same is true for any job requiring political buy-in from non-lawyers, like agency heads, district court judges, state attorneys general, U.S. Attorneys, district attorneys, and the like. There was a partner at a NYC biglaw firm I worked at who would love to tell clients, "We have [such and such junior associates] working on your case. [Junior associate 1] just graduated from Harvard law and [Junior associate 2] was top of her class at NYU" and things like that.

I'm not going to claim schools never matter - they obviously often do - but I know of examples in all the categories you listed who went to ordinary local law schools and got to their jobs by working and networking in their communities. That doesn't mean the playing field is level, just that nothing is foreclosed based on the school you attend. (Or guaranteed - there's a lot of anti-snobbery/hostility to elitism about schools out there too.)

That said, I also think it's tough to disentangle pre-existing privilege that gives a person a leg up from the benefit of attending the fancy schools. There are absolutely people who come from nothing who make it to (say) Harvard and benefit both from having that name on their resume and making connections with classmates, in a way that won't happen at Regional State U. But there are also a lot of people at (say) Harvard who started life already on second base due to family wealth and connections. It's hard to say how much of the latter group's success derives specifically from attending Harvard rather than from being born into the right family. Similarly, someone who comes from nothing who has the intelligence and drive to get to Harvard against a lot of odds is also someone likely qualified to succeed almost regardless of where they go to school.

I don't mean to suggest the world is some kind of pure meritocracy or anything - all else equal, getting the name/brand of an elite school is better than not - just don't want people to assume pedigree is entirely destiny.

[Anonymous User]

The SCOTUS example doesn't exactly prove anything because the pool of people eligible to build up the resume you need is so tiny and is heavily weighed by those schools. You need to get an elite clerkship, likely SCOTUS, have a generally super impressive career, and become a judge in your 40s. HLS and YLS both feed what, 100 clerks a year? A lower T14 will be lucky to have 20. And it's even more stark for SCOTUS clerks.

[Anonymous User]

Does clerking help reduce the stigma from a low ranked school, if you’re trying to get traditional BigLaw?

Your best chance is always going to be via OCI / 2L recruiting. That's when firms do their hiring. If you miss that, a clerkship can be an alternative on ramp. The clerkship will be harder to get, incidentally.

And there is no stigma to overcome. Yes, firms do recruit less from lower schools. And yes, all else equal, it does help throughout your career to be from a better school. But your first job will define your career much more than anything else.

[Anonymous User]

So, less theoretically, if you are below median at HYS, how many years out is it realistic to lateral up? I guess it depends on the market here, but is 1 year out of the question?