(Thread derailed Mods please delete.) Apply to DEI 2L scholarships as a practicing Jew? Forum

[Anonymous User]

OP don't do this. In fact, do everything you can to minimize your yeshiva background until you have an offer. Then join the affinity group if you want. Hatzlacha.

As someone who has been in biglaw for over a decade and always wear a kippa, I agree with this.

I also have very mixed feelings about the GDC initiative, however well intentioned. The DEI industrial complex is largely indifferent to discrimination against Jews at best, and propagates anti-Semitism at worst, as it views Jews as "oppressors" with "white privilege" (notwithstanding that our grandparents were sent to the gas chambers for not being sufficiently "white").

More details on this here: https://www.heritage.org/education/repo ... sion-staff and here: https://www.forbes.com/sites/irabedzow/ ... 5e23d6b746.

[Anonymous User]

Are Jews even a minority in big law? At my NY firm it feels like you’re a minority if you’re not Jewish.

Yeah really. In my last practice group (finance-related, in NYC) only two people WEREN’T Jewish. And a solid chunk of the Jewish folks were observant. FYI Jewish people are about 2-4% of the US population, so they are definitely overrepresented at my firm (that includes observant and secular, both are technically overrepresented compared to the percentage of the overall population). Idk if DEI scholarships were really meant for overrepresented groups. Maybe it would be OK at like a midwestern firm.

Of course I’m sympathetic to the difficulties of being an observant Jew in biglaw, but I’m just not sure that a DEI scholarship is the way to go here, since they seem to be targeted to groups that are underrepresented in biglaw?

OP here I actually tend to agree with this viewpoint. Although to your anecdotal point there are practice areas (not tax or finance) where observant Jews may not be as well represented.
So my original thought was if someone grew up Hasidic with zero education they probably are under-represented in the law. An affluent ethnic/racial minority may not be. Reflecting more I do think that these are debates that have been had elsewhere and I am sympathetic to both sides and don't feel passionate enough to rehash them.

[Anonymous User]

OP don't do this. In fact, do everything you can to minimize your yeshiva background until you have an offer. Then join the affinity group if you want. Hatzlacha.

As someone who has been in biglaw for over a decade and always wear a kippa, I agree with this.

I also have very mixed feelings about the GDC initiative, however well intentioned. The DEI industrial complex is largely indifferent to discrimination against Jews at best, and propagates anti-Semitism at worst, as it views Jews as "oppressors" with "white privilege" (notwithstanding that our grandparents were sent to the gas chambers for not being sufficiently "white").

More details on this here: https://www.heritage.org/education/repo ... sion-staff and here: https://www.forbes.com/sites/irabedzow/ ... 5e23d6b746.

Interesting. Although there are largely two different experiences for "kipa wearers" modox and hareidi, the latter need to work a better system for the students to be prepared as young lawyers, even if they attend top schools. There are some without any or perhaps minimal experience and abysmal interview skills. Although not sure if it's their fault as much as the Haredi system.

[Anonymous User]

I applied for diversity fellowships as an Asian-American male from a working class immigrant background, and my interviewers made outright racist and nasty remarks toward me.

You may genuinely be diverse but don't kid yourself.

Were these the DEI committee interviewers?

[Anonymous User]

Are Jews even a minority in big law? At my NY firm it feels like you’re a minority if you’re not Jewish.

Yeah really. In my last practice group (finance-related, in NYC) only two people WEREN’T Jewish. And a solid chunk of the Jewish folks were observant. FYI Jewish people are about 2-4% of the US population, so they are definitely overrepresented at my firm (that includes observant and secular, both are technically overrepresented compared to the percentage of the overall population). Idk if DEI scholarships were really meant for overrepresented groups. Maybe it would be OK at like a midwestern firm.

Of course I’m sympathetic to the difficulties of being an observant Jew in biglaw, but I’m just not sure that a DEI scholarship is the way to go here, since they seem to be targeted to groups that are underrepresented in biglaw?

OP here I actually tend to agree with this viewpoint. Although to your anecdotal point there are practice areas (not tax or finance) where observant Jews may not be as well represented.
So my original thought was if someone grew up Hasidic with zero education they probably are under-represented in the law. An affluent ethnic/racial minority may not be. Reflecting more I do think that these are debates that have been had elsewhere and I am sympathetic to both sides and don't feel passionate enough to rehash them.

Objectively speaking, someone who grew up chassidic and was educated in Yiddish-speaking yeshivas has much less in common with a typical law grad than someone whose skin happens to be darker but went to a good public school and a top university/law school. Unlike most secular Jews, who immigrated to the U.S. in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the chassidim largely arrived as refugees after WWII. Even now, many chassidic men in particular will go through elementary and high school with almost no secular education and very few will be able to read or write in English, and only a tiny percentage who remain in the community will go to college. Entering the professional world will feel like being dropped on a different planet in which the culture, manner of speech, customs, and mores are completely alien. This will be so even though likely were born and raised in Brooklyn or Monsey, New York. I would think a person with such a background would contribute to "diversity," but I suspect that whoever is running this program would disagree.

[Anonymous User]

OP don't do this. In fact, do everything you can to minimize your yeshiva background until you have an offer. Then join the affinity group if you want. Hatzlacha.

Curious why you still say this. OP was referring to the new GDC initiative, which may be showing that winds are blowing in another direction. Instead of hiding as I (and probably you) did, OP can bring their whole self or something cliché like that.
IMO it probably depends on how Chassidic OP is although I would lean not to apply

Because there's implicit bias (sometimes explicit) against the visibly religious. I know this because I didn't hide it. If you did hide it and did well, that's not exactly disproving my point.

[Anonymous User]

Are Jews even a minority in big law? At my NY firm it feels like you’re a minority if you’re not Jewish.

Yeah really. In my last practice group (finance-related, in NYC) only two people WEREN’T Jewish. And a solid chunk of the Jewish folks were observant. FYI Jewish people are about 2-4% of the US population, so they are definitely overrepresented at my firm (that includes observant and secular, both are technically overrepresented compared to the percentage of the overall population). Idk if DEI scholarships were really meant for overrepresented groups. Maybe it would be OK at like a midwestern firm.

Of course I’m sympathetic to the difficulties of being an observant Jew in biglaw, but I’m just not sure that a DEI scholarship is the way to go here, since they seem to be targeted to groups that are underrepresented in biglaw?

OP here I actually tend to agree with this viewpoint. Although to your anecdotal point there are practice areas (not tax or finance) where observant Jews may not be as well represented.
So my original thought was if someone grew up Hasidic with zero education they probably are under-represented in the law. An affluent ethnic/racial minority may not be. Reflecting more I do think that these are debates that have been had elsewhere and I am sympathetic to both sides and don't feel passionate enough to rehash them.

Objectively speaking, someone who grew up chassidic and was educated in Yiddish-speaking yeshivas has much less in common with a typical law grad than someone whose skin happens to be darker but went to a good public school and a top university/law school. Unlike most secular Jews, who immigrated to the U.S. in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the chassidim largely arrived as refugees after WWII. Even now, many chassidic men in particular will go through elementary and high school with almost no secular education and very few will be able to read or write in English, and only a tiny percentage who remain in the community will go to college. Entering the professional world will feel like being dropped on a different planet in which the culture, manner of speech, customs, and mores are completely alien. This will be so even though likely were born and raised in Brooklyn or Monsey, New York. I would think a person with such a background would contribute to "diversity," but I suspect that whoever is running this program would disagree.

Question whether someone who grew up Amish would qualify for DEI—they are rough comps here.

Candidly, while everyone’s experience is different, in v10-20 firms religion seems to be respected to a pretty strong degree. People absolutely put OOOs for Eid Fitr and Rosh Hashanah and I’ve never seen a reaction to it other than partners getting frustrated with midlevels for not realizing that the other side may observe high holidays when managing timelines. Tbh Easter seems the least “observable” religious holiday, people will absolutely demand you work over it.

[Anonymous User]

Observance itself is respected, and individuals are generally judged as individuals. Once you get in the door. That doesn't mean that we don't face challenges to get in the door. It's not a plus for an applicant. There's also a big cultural difference between a lakewood guy and a YU grad that can't really be put into the DEI categories or properly explained but if you know you know.

Bottom line OP, tap into the SALT network and find someone to help you with the process. This isn't the place to ask these questions. I'm happy to chat if you want.

[Anonymous User]

Are Jews even a minority in big law? At my NY firm it feels like you’re a minority if you’re not Jewish.

Yeah really. In my last practice group (finance-related, in NYC) only two people WEREN’T Jewish. And a solid chunk of the Jewish folks were observant. FYI Jewish people are about 2-4% of the US population, so they are definitely overrepresented at my firm (that includes observant and secular, both are technically overrepresented compared to the percentage of the overall population). Idk if DEI scholarships were really meant for overrepresented groups. Maybe it would be OK at like a midwestern firm.

Of course I’m sympathetic to the difficulties of being an observant Jew in biglaw, but I’m just not sure that a DEI scholarship is the way to go here, since they seem to be targeted to groups that are underrepresented in biglaw?

OP here I actually tend to agree with this viewpoint. Although to your anecdotal point there are practice areas (not tax or finance) where observant Jews may not be as well represented.
So my original thought was if someone grew up Hasidic with zero education they probably are under-represented in the law. An affluent ethnic/racial minority may not be. Reflecting more I do think that these are debates that have been had elsewhere and I am sympathetic to both sides and don't feel passionate enough to rehash them.

Objectively speaking, someone who grew up chassidic and was educated in Yiddish-speaking yeshivas has much less in common with a typical law grad than someone whose skin happens to be darker but went to a good public school and a top university/law school. Unlike most secular Jews, who immigrated to the U.S. in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the chassidim largely arrived as refugees after WWII. Even now, many chassidic men in particular will go through elementary and high school with almost no secular education and very few will be able to read or write in English, and only a tiny percentage who remain in the community will go to college. Entering the professional world will feel like being dropped on a different planet in which the culture, manner of speech, customs, and mores are completely alien. This will be so even though likely were born and raised in Brooklyn or Monsey, New York. I would think a person with such a background would contribute to "diversity," but I suspect that whoever is running this program would disagree.

Question whether someone who grew up Amish would qualify for DEI—they are rough comps here.

Candidly, while everyone’s experience is different, in v10-20 firms religion seems to be respected to a pretty strong degree. People absolutely put OOOs for Eid Fitr and Rosh Hashanah and I’ve never seen a reaction to it other than partners getting frustrated with midlevels for not realizing that the other side may observe high holidays when managing timelines. Tbh Easter seems the least “observable” religious holiday, people will absolutely demand you work over it.

I mean, I think they should. Amish is certainly more different in a ton of ways and rare than any of the traditionally diverse characteristics. But it won’t help law firms proudly display tats about how many minorities they have, so I’m 99% sure it won’t really help with DEI.

[Anonymous User]

Are Jews even a minority in big law? At my NY firm it feels like you’re a minority if you’re not Jewish.

FYI Jewish people are about 2-4% of the US population, so they are definitely overrepresented at my firm (that includes observant and secular, both are technically overrepresented compared to the percentage of the overall population).

This framing shows why DEI (in its current form) is bunk. Why should we care about representation relative to population percentage? Anyone with two eyes knows that Jewish households, on the margin, value education and academic performance more than the average.

Is the argument that in a world stripped of discrimination all groups would perform equivalently? That requires “over represented” Jews to somehow be the beneficiaries of discrimination.

Or rather, what is culture if not a commonly held set of preferences and practices that impacts outcomes?

[Anonymous User]

Yes. This is the “antiracist” argument and the basis of the “equity” in DEI. It’s sounds like you prefer equality and not equity.

It’s also the same sort of point people make when they point out men are over represented as partners.

[Anonymous User]

Are Jews even a minority in big law? At my NY firm it feels like you’re a minority if you’re not Jewish.

FYI Jewish people are about 2-4% of the US population, so they are definitely overrepresented at my firm (that includes observant and secular, both are technically overrepresented compared to the percentage of the overall population).

This framing shows why DEI (in its current form) is bunk. Why should we care about representation relative to population percentage? Anyone with two eyes knows that Jewish households, on the margin, value education and academic performance more than the average.

Is the argument that in a world stripped of discrimination all groups would perform equivalently? That requires “over represented” Jews to somehow be the beneficiaries of discrimination.

Or rather, what is culture if not a commonly held set of preferences and practices that impacts outcomes?

As the poster above noted, this is... obviously the case and also basically heretical to openly admit in progressive circles these days. In the last 10 years, more Indian Americans have won the Scripps National Spelling Bee than any other ethnic group (including whites). Is this a result of racism? Does diversity and inclusion justify the suppression of Indians in spelling bees? Obviously not. That would be absurd. And yet this is the logical conclusion of mainstream interpretations of DEI.

[Anonymous User]

Are Jews even a minority in big law? At my NY firm it feels like you’re a minority if you’re not Jewish.

FYI Jewish people are about 2-4% of the US population, so they are definitely overrepresented at my firm (that includes observant and secular, both are technically overrepresented compared to the percentage of the overall population).

This framing shows why DEI (in its current form) is bunk. Why should we care about representation relative to population percentage? Anyone with two eyes knows that Jewish households, on the margin, value education and academic performance more than the average.

Is the argument that in a world stripped of discrimination all groups would perform equivalently? That requires “over represented” Jews to somehow be the beneficiaries of discrimination.

Or rather, what is culture if not a commonly held set of preferences and practices that impacts outcomes?

As the poster above noted, this is... obviously the case and also basically heretical to openly admit in progressive circles these days. In the last 10 years, more Indian Americans have won the Scripps National Spelling Bee than any other ethnic group (including whites). Is this a result of racism? Does diversity and inclusion justify the suppression of Indians in spelling bees? Obviously not. That would be absurd. And yet this is the logical conclusion of mainstream interpretations of DEI.

I regret to inform you that there are efforts at schools to try and suppress Indian representatives in spelling bees now.

[LittleRedCorvette]

Are Jews even a minority in big law? At my NY firm it feels like you’re a minority if you’re not Jewish.

FYI Jewish people are about 2-4% of the US population, so they are definitely overrepresented at my firm (that includes observant and secular, both are technically overrepresented compared to the percentage of the overall population).

This framing shows why DEI (in its current form) is bunk. Why should we care about representation relative to population percentage? Anyone with two eyes knows that Jewish households, on the margin, value education and academic performance more than the average.

Is the argument that in a world stripped of discrimination all groups would perform equivalently? That requires “over represented” Jews to somehow be the beneficiaries of discrimination.

Or rather, what is culture if not a commonly held set of preferences and practices that impacts outcomes?

As the poster above noted, this is... obviously the case and also basically heretical to openly admit in progressive circles these days. In the last 10 years, more Indian Americans have won the Scripps National Spelling Bee than any other ethnic group (including whites). Is this a result of racism? Does diversity and inclusion justify the suppression of Indians in spelling bees? Obviously not. That would be absurd. And yet this is the logical conclusion of mainstream interpretations of DEI.

I regret to inform you that there are efforts at schools to try and suppress Indian representatives in spelling bees now.

Is that real? Who do "they" want to win instead?

[Anonymous User]

Are Jews even a minority in big law? At my NY firm it feels like you’re a minority if you’re not Jewish.

FYI Jewish people are about 2-4% of the US population, so they are definitely overrepresented at my firm (that includes observant and secular, both are technically overrepresented compared to the percentage of the overall population).

This framing shows why DEI (in its current form) is bunk. Why should we care about representation relative to population percentage? Anyone with two eyes knows that Jewish households, on the margin, value education and academic performance more than the average.

Is the argument that in a world stripped of discrimination all groups would perform equivalently? That requires “over represented” Jews to somehow be the beneficiaries of discrimination.

Or rather, what is culture if not a commonly held set of preferences and practices that impacts outcomes?

[deleted, sorry OP]