Least "fratty"/forced social NY firms? Forum

[jotarokujo]

If you’re less willing to do that, it is possible to skip some of these steps. I managed to get one of those “unicorn” jobs where I feel like everything I do is pretty interesting and high value. I work in DC lit, doing a mix of appellate and regulatory / investigations at one of the more selective firms. I did clerk for feeder judges, and was like top 15%. But it is attainable—go out and kill your next year and from Y/S, you’ll be in a much better position to get better work and be treated as more of a person than at a volume NY shop.

PS — based on what you’re saying here, I think the experience will be worse for you in transactional from an “interesting work” perspective. And consulting or banking are far more social and based on connections and soft skills; there’s less differentiation in hard work product and so success is more dictated by the soft stuff.

seconding this, time to gun

[Anonymous User]

you loath the idea of getting coffee to talk to or get to know a colleague, but how else is anyone senior to you or with staffing responsibilities going to know that you feel miserable and have interests outside of what you've gotten to do to date?

I want to be clear that I don't loathe the idea of getting coffee with a colleague--I loathe the idea of interrupting someone else to grab coffee/lunch with them (it's funny, I remember my first internship back in HS was at a tax think tank and I would be very aggressive in asking for work/to get to known people around the office, and one time I got screamed at for daring to come and ask for work when the VP was "obviously busy" even though he didn't seem it). Like I don't mind getting coffee with people I mind the onus being put on me to gauge if the other associates are busy and asking them instead of the other way around. I've never been a big one to grab lunch/dinner with people anyway, even my friends, so like its very odd to me.

Your posts seem full of contradictions to me. I have never been a consultant, but have known a lot even I know that consultants are way more extroverted at work than almost any lawyer. And in this post -- you like getting coffee/hanging out with people but only if they ask you first? If you don't like to interrupt, can't you ask the person in the morning if he wants to grab coffee in the afternoon and to let you know when he's free? Are you a KJD? I ask because it sounds like you aren't clear on what you like and don't like and want and don't want and in my experience, that tends to be more true among KJDs. I would spend some time seriously thinking through what you are looking for and then (as much as you don't like it), ask to talk to people to get a sense of how that matches up with what they are doing.

[Anonymous User]

you loath the idea of getting coffee to talk to or get to know a colleague, but how else is anyone senior to you or with staffing responsibilities going to know that you feel miserable and have interests outside of what you've gotten to do to date?

I want to be clear that I don't loathe the idea of getting coffee with a colleague--I loathe the idea of interrupting someone else to grab coffee/lunch with them (it's funny, I remember my first internship back in HS was at a tax think tank and I would be very aggressive in asking for work/to get to known people around the office, and one time I got screamed at for daring to come and ask for work when the VP was "obviously busy" even though he didn't seem it). Like I don't mind getting coffee with people I mind the onus being put on me to gauge if the other associates are busy and asking them instead of the other way around. I've never been a big one to grab lunch/dinner with people anyway, even my friends, so like its very odd to me.

Your posts seem full of contradictions to me. I have never been a consultant, but have known a lot even I know that consultants are way more extroverted at work than almost any lawyer. And in this post -- you like getting coffee/hanging out with people but only if they ask you first? If you don't like to interrupt, can't you ask the person in the morning if he wants to grab coffee in the afternoon and to let you know when he's free? Are you a KJD? I ask because it sounds like you aren't clear on what you like and don't like and want and don't want and in my experience, that tends to be more true among KJDs. I would spend some time seriously thinking through what you are looking for and then (as much as you don't like it), ask to talk to people to get a sense of how that matches up with what they are doing.

Nope, worked as a banker (specifically in cap markets), then for a couple years in a very social role pre-law school (think technical sales/teaching, something in the "get up in front of a group and explain complex problems" universe). I liked that role more than banking but I left it for law school because I thought "hey, I want more complex issues than exactly how this software can be used to improve your factory's efficiency by XXX% and how our AI can improve your supply chain." In retrospect, the parts of that job I liked were the parts where I was getting up and talking through issues either with clients or back with my team.

The thing is I am somewhat extroverted but there's something about how this environment (and maybe its just this firm?) works that's particularly off-putting. Like they stress getting to know everyone but don't put in clear ways to do that? And like unless you're working with the same people constantly there's not an organic way to go about it? IDK this is unlike any other professional environment I've been in. Like why isn't the focus on learning through working and adding whatever modicum of value we can?

[Anonymous User]

My thoughts:

1) Summers are Westlaw monkeys. Period. That some of your colleagues are doing other things is probably just random luck of the draw. You happened to be assigned to more Westlaw monkey assignments, but that's supposed to be how it goes for Summers. Like, associates/partners have to come up with these bullshit assignments, and legal research is by far the easiest thing to come up with.

2) Junior associates do some legal research, but it's probably not going to be as much as you're doing as a summer. Because clients hate paying for that shit. The expectation is that you already know the law, and that's usually how it is when you're drafting up briefs. Also, usually the end work product is just giving the cases, not a full-blown memo with legal analysis. How it usually goes is that the person writing the brief wants to make some point that may be novel and you the junior find some cases that they can cite to.

3) The summer is all about wining/dining summers, but once you actually join the firm, nobody's going to care about grabbing lunch/coffee or doing internal social networking. You'll get assigned to cases, and if you do good work, they'll assign you more work.

I would be willing to bet your firm is pretty much like this as well and you're just being paranoid.

[Anonymous User]

My thoughts:

1) Summers are Westlaw monkeys. Period. That some of your colleagues are doing other things is probably just random luck of the draw. You happened to be assigned to more Westlaw monkey assignments, but that's supposed to be how it goes for Summers. Like, associates/partners have to come up with these bullshit assignments, and legal research is by far the easiest thing to come up with.

2) Junior associates do some legal research, but it's probably not going to be as much as you're doing as a summer. Because clients hate paying for that shit. The expectation is that you already know the law, and that's usually how it is when you're drafting up briefs. Also, usually the end work product is just giving the cases, not a full-blown memo with legal analysis. How it usually goes is that the person writing the brief wants to make some point that may be novel and you the junior find some cases that they can cite to.

3) The summer is all about wining/dining summers, but once you actually join the firm, nobody's going to care about grabbing lunch/coffee or doing internal social networking. You'll get assigned to cases, and if you do good work, they'll assign you more work.

I would be willing to bet your firm is pretty much like this as well and you're just being paranoid.

Is that your experience? That seems crazy to me -- I research all but the most basic of propositions to find a case that best fits the facts/nuances of the case at hand.

[Anonymous User]

My thoughts:

1) Summers are Westlaw monkeys. Period. That some of your colleagues are doing other things is probably just random luck of the draw. You happened to be assigned to more Westlaw monkey assignments, but that's supposed to be how it goes for Summers. Like, associates/partners have to come up with these bullshit assignments, and legal research is by far the easiest thing to come up with.

2) Junior associates do some legal research, but it's probably not going to be as much as you're doing as a summer. Because clients hate paying for that shit. The expectation is that you already know the law, and that's usually how it is when you're drafting up briefs. Also, usually the end work product is just giving the cases, not a full-blown memo with legal analysis. How it usually goes is that the person writing the brief wants to make some point that may be novel and you the junior find some cases that they can cite to.

3) The summer is all about wining/dining summers, but once you actually join the firm, nobody's going to care about grabbing lunch/coffee or doing internal social networking. You'll get assigned to cases, and if you do good work, they'll assign you more work.

I would be willing to bet your firm is pretty much like this as well and you're just being paranoid.

Is that your experience? That seems crazy to me -- I research all but the most basic of propositions to find a case that best fits the facts/nuances of the case at hand.

Agreed. Maybe this is the case in specific areas of the law (maybe telecom antitrust?), but in GCL more broadly, it's about finding the necessary authorities efficiently (without missing any key statutes or cases). Could also see this being true in industry-specific state court focused practices.

[BigLawPartner]

My thoughts:

1) Summers are Westlaw monkeys. Period. That some of your colleagues are doing other things is probably just random luck of the draw. You happened to be assigned to more Westlaw monkey assignments, but that's supposed to be how it goes for Summers. Like, associates/partners have to come up with these bullshit assignments, and legal research is by far the easiest thing to come up with.

2) Junior associates do some legal research, but it's probably not going to be as much as you're doing as a summer. Because clients hate paying for that shit. The expectation is that you already know the law, and that's usually how it is when you're drafting up briefs. Also, usually the end work product is just giving the cases, not a full-blown memo with legal analysis. How it usually goes is that the person writing the brief wants to make some point that may be novel and you the junior find some cases that they can cite to.

3) The summer is all about wining/dining summers, but once you actually join the firm, nobody's going to care about grabbing lunch/coffee or doing internal social networking. You'll get assigned to cases, and if you do good work, they'll assign you more work.

I would be willing to bet your firm is pretty much like this as well and you're just being paranoid.

Is that your experience? That seems crazy to me -- I research all but the most basic of propositions to find a case that best fits the facts/nuances of the case at hand.

Agree. That's one of the crazier statements I've seen made on this forum, and that's saying something. Completely divorced from my experience.

[Anonymous User]

OP back. Yeah at least at the firm I'm at for the summer, it seems very much like the associates are doing in-depth research as well. Exception is probably the internal investigations team, who have been the best to work with (but even they have done a good bit of research due to the USAO sniffing around one of our clients)

[blair.waldorf]

I’m surprised no one else has pointed out that the original post is pretty entitled. Being a summer associate and a junior associate at a law firm involves doing a lot of boring grunt work. If you stick it out, you’ll graduate to more interesting work.

And socializing with your colleagues is part of corporate America, for better or for worse.

[Anonymous User]

I’m surprised no one else has pointed out that the original post is pretty entitled. Being a summer associate and a junior associate at a law firm involves doing a lot of boring grunt work. If you stick it out, you’ll graduate to more interesting work.

And socializing with your colleagues is part of corporate America, for better or for worse.

I was unclear in the OP, and that's my fault; to clarify:

a) I don't dislike research, but I don't really like it either. I'm mostly just annoyed that it seems like the other summers are getting more (apparently) interesting work while I'm stuck in the mud of the FRCP.

b) I'm not opposed to socializing, I'm opposed to being pushed to socialize and interrupt people doing productive work when I have semi-productive work I can be doing. I'm actually at my best in truly social roles (sales, teaching, etc) which may be contributing to my annoyance with lit. . .

c) but I don't like pure execution work and definitely found my corporate assignments to be some of the most mind numbing. There was one tax assignment that I liked even though it had me digging through piles of PLRs, but the most interesting work by far has been the internal investigations I've touched on in large part because we weren't as concerned with the legal intricacies so much. This is really making me think that I'm just not built for biglaw and I'd be happier in management consulting or some other role where I can think more strategically and be more fact-based.

I don't think I'm entitled, just that I'm in the wrong industry. Or at the very least a bad culture fit firm even though I like the people I've met as individuals.

[Anonymous User]

I’m surprised no one else has pointed out that the original post is pretty entitled. Being a summer associate and a junior associate at a law firm involves doing a lot of boring grunt work. If you stick it out, you’ll graduate to more interesting work.

And socializing with your colleagues is part of corporate America, for better or for worse.

I was unclear in the OP, and that's my fault; to clarify:

a) I don't dislike research, but I don't really like it either. I'm mostly just annoyed that it seems like the other summers are getting more (apparently) interesting work while I'm stuck in the mud of the FRCP.

b) I'm not opposed to socializing, I'm opposed to being pushed to socialize and interrupt people doing productive work when I have semi-productive work I can be doing. I'm actually at my best in truly social roles (sales, teaching, etc) which may be contributing to my annoyance with lit. . .

c) but I don't like pure execution work and definitely found my corporate assignments to be some of the most mind numbing. There was one tax assignment that I liked even though it had me digging through piles of PLRs, but the most interesting work by far has been the internal investigations I've touched on in large part because we weren't as concerned with the legal intricacies so much. This is really making me think that I'm just not built for biglaw and I'd be happier in management consulting or some other role where I can think more strategically and be more fact-based.

I don't think I'm entitled, just that I'm in the wrong industry. Or at the very least a bad culture fit firm even though I like the people I've met as individuals.

OK but this isn't your first industry right? What makes you think that the grass is greener? This is what a job is. The common denominator here is you.

[nixy]

I still don’t get why “being pushed to socialize” means being pushed to interrupt people? Those are not the same thing.

WRT other summers getting more interesting legal work, you had referenced them going to “see motions work.” I’m not certain what you mean by that, but sounds like you are actually getting more substantive assignments than they are, suggesting a greater confidence in your abilities. I realize that’s not much consolation if you don’t like those assignments, but I wanted to point out there is a potentially good reason why you’ve been so pigeonholed.

Of course, you may still be right that biglaw isn’t really for you (it’s not for a lot of people, not in the long run), but I do feel like some of your concerns are a little confusing.

[Anonymous User]

I’m surprised no one else has pointed out that the original post is pretty entitled. Being a summer associate and a junior associate at a law firm involves doing a lot of boring grunt work. If you stick it out, you’ll graduate to more interesting work.

And socializing with your colleagues is part of corporate America, for better or for worse.

I was unclear in the OP, and that's my fault; to clarify:

a) I don't dislike research, but I don't really like it either. I'm mostly just annoyed that it seems like the other summers are getting more (apparently) interesting work while I'm stuck in the mud of the FRCP.

b) I'm not opposed to socializing, I'm opposed to being pushed to socialize and interrupt people doing productive work when I have semi-productive work I can be doing. I'm actually at my best in truly social roles (sales, teaching, etc) which may be contributing to my annoyance with lit. . .

c) but I don't like pure execution work and definitely found my corporate assignments to be some of the most mind numbing. There was one tax assignment that I liked even though it had me digging through piles of PLRs, but the most interesting work by far has been the internal investigations I've touched on in large part because we weren't as concerned with the legal intricacies so much. This is really making me think that I'm just not built for biglaw and I'd be happier in management consulting or some other role where I can think more strategically and be more fact-based.

I don't think I'm entitled, just that I'm in the wrong industry. Or at the very least a bad culture fit firm even though I like the people I've met as individuals.

I have no experience with sales, but I'm sure you're aware that the skills involved in teaching and socializing are extremely different. I'm a successful teacher in a place where the standards are pretty high, but I'm also horrible at socializing and borderline autistic.

As others have said above, it's really hard to see how management consulting could be a job with less socializing. I'm intimately familiar with both industries, and law is a place where you can be far less social.

For what it's worth, one thing I've noticed post-pandemic is that people are more willing to be interrupted than before because there's been less socialization. Seriously, just go get coffee with people. It's good for you.