NY Firms No-Offering Forum

[Anonymous User]

At KE Chicago - haven’t heard of any cold offers and we have a historically large class here. Haven’t heard anything about NY cold offering 20 people either, for what it’s worth.

[Barry grandpapy]

Look I'm all for ragging on Kirkland as much as the next person, but I think we need some clarity on how the poster knows that there are 20+ cold offers, because that would be a historic amount.

If not true, poster should be de-anoned, since anon is meant to protect posters sharing actual true information.

If true, then nobody with another offer should take K&E NY anymore. Just go to any other reputable firm that 100% offers

Agreed, probably also banned. I'm not heading to Kirkland but putting out wrong no offer data should be banable. Law students do actually read this forum.

[Anonymous User]

Multiple cold offers, at least over 20 at Kirkland NY. Due to multiple instances of perceived disrespect to partners and associates(at least one instance of a summer using profane language to describe a partner to another associate) and lack of responsivity (outright ignoring emails, not turning in work assignments).

Maybe I’m out of touch, but speaking as an associate that is almost always on the side of other associates, the alleged behavior is pretty egregious if true and I don’t think cold offers would be unreasonable.

If “perceived disrespect” to an associate or non-rainmaker partner could get kids cold offered at a typical firm, we’d hardly have any summers getting offers

Yeah, I'm probably out of touch, but I think there's a distinction between perceived disrespect arising from something relatively harmless like a one-time drunk faux pas comment at a dinner or happy hour event and something more intentional like ignoring emails and outright not turning in assignments (assuming no attempts at a heads up or extending deadlines). Holding the former against someone is pretty cruel if obviously just a mistake in the moment. The latter would make me pretty frustrated.

+1, but the OP notes "multiple instances" of disrespect. I'm 100% on board with forgiving one drunken mistake (I had one as a summer and made an ass of myself), but if a pattern emerges that's a different thing (and a potential liability). I know someone who got no offered after repeatedly misbehaving while drunk at summer events. While no single event was enough to justify the no offer, the pattern certainly was. Is profane language on the same level? I could give a shit about cuss words. But if there's a pattern that suggests the summer is subversive, untrustworthy, or otherwise unable to work with teams/clients in a civil way, I could see the argument for a cold offer.

While 20 is indeed surprising, it's plausible to me because one bad apple can spoil the bunch. Take, as an example, the post on here a few weeks ago by one summer who clearly cared about the job, but was thinking of mailing it in to appease fellow summers who thought actually trying was making them look bad.

[Anonymous User]

I really doubt the Kirkland thing. No way a profitable firm is doing something like that.

[Anonymous User]

Multiple cold offers, at least over 20 at Kirkland NY. Due to multiple instances of perceived disrespect to partners and associates(at least one instance of a summer using profane language to describe a partner to another associate) and lack of responsivity (outright ignoring emails, not turning in work assignments).

20 no offers???? This sounds reckless and completely made up. I'm a summer in the Chicago office and I've not heard of this being a thing in the NY office despite that we are in the loop on what's happening there.

[Anonymous User]

Hey there this is the original OP who posted about Kirkland NY. I can confirm with a mod if necessary, but my information comes directly from a SA at Kirkland NY.

[Anonymous User]

Hey there this is the original OP who posted about Kirkland NY. I can confirm with a mod if necessary, but my information comes directly from a SA at Kirkland NY.

How would a SA know that twenty people were cold offered?

[Anonymous User]

Hey there this is the original OP who posted about Kirkland NY. I can confirm with a mod if necessary, but my information comes directly from a SA at Kirkland NY.

Entirely possible my firm may be the outlier, but as a SA at a NY biglaw firm not Kirkland I really don't know how I would know if others got cold offers besides myself.

Can you give us any indication how said SA knows this? The only thing I can think of is if maybe like 20 Kirkland summers did something bad together and not individually and then amongst each other discussed their no offers and word got out.

[Anonymous User]

Hey there this is the original OP who posted about Kirkland NY. I can confirm with a mod if necessary, but my information comes directly from a SA at Kirkland NY.

How would a SA know that twenty people were cold offered?

OP again. I don't know how exactly they know and although the claim is pretty wild, this person would have no reason to lie about this and neither do I. But besides that, even if nobody told him that explicitly (which i highly doubt considering the nature of the claim i.e. the specific things mentioned) it'd also be pretty easy to figure out. Word spreads fast and people talk.

[Anonymous User]

Hey there this is the original OP who posted about Kirkland NY. I can confirm with a mod if necessary, but my information comes directly from a SA at Kirkland NY.

How would a SA know that twenty people were cold offered?

OP again. I don't know how exactly they know and although the claim is pretty wild, this person would have no reason to lie about this and neither do I. But besides that, even if nobody told him that explicitly (which i highly doubt considering the nature of the claim i.e. the specific things mentioned) it'd also be pretty easy to figure out. Word spreads fast and people talk.

It would be easy to figure out that 20 people were cold* offered? How?

You heard this from a summer and are taking it as fact or a matter of intention. People lie about shit all the time. For fun or out of anxiety. Or they exaggerate. Even if your friend is not the type to lie, he may very well have heard it from another SA. Not super reliable.

Also we find out about offers next week. It's possible individuals are notified early if they're cold* offered. But this idea that a firm would cold* offer 20 people is wild. They know that these forums exist and that a cold offer would be treated similar to a no offer by prospective summers.

[Anonymous User]

Edit: ^I meant cold offered not no offered.

[ignorantfoot96]

Hey there this is the original OP who posted about Kirkland NY. I can confirm with a mod if necessary, but my information comes directly from a SA at Kirkland NY.

How would a SA know that twenty people were cold offered?

OP again. I don't know how exactly they know and although the claim is pretty wild, this person would have no reason to lie about this and neither do I. But besides that, even if nobody told him that explicitly (which i highly doubt considering the nature of the claim i.e. the specific things mentioned) it'd also be pretty easy to figure out. Word spreads fast and people talk.

It would be easy to figure out that 20 people were cold* offered? How?

You heard this from a summer and are taking it as fact or a matter of intention. People lie about shit all the time. For fun or out of anxiety. Or they exaggerate. Even if your friend is not the type to lie, he may very well have heard it from another SA. Not super reliable.

Also we find out about offers next week. It's possible individuals are notified early if they're cold* offered. But this idea that a firm would cold* offer 20 people is wild. They know that these forums exist and that a cold offer would be treated similar to a no offer by prospective summers.

Perhaps slightly off topic, but what would this "cold offer" conversation sound like? does a partner/hiring committee literally tell the SA "hey you don't have a future here, but here is an offer?"

[Anonymous User]

Hey there this is the original OP who posted about Kirkland NY. I can confirm with a mod if necessary, but my information comes directly from a SA at Kirkland NY.

How would a SA know that twenty people were cold offered?

OP again. I don't know how exactly they know and although the claim is pretty wild, this person would have no reason to lie about this and neither do I. But besides that, even if nobody told him that explicitly (which i highly doubt considering the nature of the claim i.e. the specific things mentioned) it'd also be pretty easy to figure out. Word spreads fast and people talk.

It would be easy to figure out that 20 people were cold* offered? How?

You heard this from a summer and are taking it as fact or a matter of intention. People lie about shit all the time. For fun or out of anxiety. Or they exaggerate. Even if your friend is not the type to lie, he may very well have heard it from another SA. Not super reliable.

Also we find out about offers next week. It's possible individuals are notified early if they're cold* offered. But this idea that a firm would cold* offer 20 people is wild. They know that these forums exist and that a cold offer would be treated similar to a no offer by prospective summers.

Okay then don't take it as a fact. I don't work for Kirkland nor do I particularly care about what they do or don't do. It seems crazier to me that someone who is going to work for a firm would just make up or exaggerate something like this. And, in my opinion, even if this is an elaborate game of telephone I strongly subscribe to the belief that "Where there's smoke,there's fire." Regardless, I believe them. Happy to be disproven conclusively that i'm wrong by someone at Kirkland NY.

[Anonymous User]

Assuming that anon is honest (and I have no reason to doubt them) I still think it's likely that the KE summer who told them this got it wrong. Maybe they gave offers along with a "but please shape up"? Which can be taken as a cold offer but is sort of a gray area? Seems very doubtful that cold offering in such numbers (and associated reputation damage) is more worth it to KE than swallowing the salaries of a bunch of useless juniors until they can grind them out.

There's usually a lot of KE ppl here, anyone on the hiring committee who can speak up? Any summers who got less than warm offers?

[Anonymous User]

Look I'm all for ragging on Kirkland as much as the next person, but I think we need some clarity on how the poster knows that there are 20+ cold offers, because that would be a historic amount.

If not true, poster should be de-anoned, since anon is meant to protect posters sharing actual true information.

If true, then nobody with another offer should take K&E NY anymore. Just go to any other reputable firm that 100% offers

Having been a summer at KE and subsequently involved with the summer program, this would be a huge deal internally. KE was a 100% offer firm during the financial crisis (it offered some deferred starts maybe?). KE also takes pride in being one of the few firms to still be a party summer with huge budgets and events. The firm very much prides itself on being a 100% real offer firm unless an SA behaves very poorly. 20 cold offers would mark a historic departure from the norm and would be big news. During my summer there was a single cold offer and it was a very much discussed HUGE deal that everyone knew about.

(KE associate for a few years, no longer with the firm)

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

Hey there this is the original OP who posted about Kirkland NY. I can confirm with a mod if necessary, but my information comes directly from a SA at Kirkland NY.

How would a SA know that twenty people were cold offered?

OP again. I don't know how exactly they know and although the claim is pretty wild, this person would have no reason to lie about this and neither do I. But besides that, even if nobody told him that explicitly (which i highly doubt considering the nature of the claim i.e. the specific things mentioned) it'd also be pretty easy to figure out. Word spreads fast and people talk.

It would be easy to figure out that 20 people were cold* offered? How?

You heard this from a summer and are taking it as fact or a matter of intention. People lie about shit all the time. For fun or out of anxiety. Or they exaggerate. Even if your friend is not the type to lie, he may very well have heard it from another SA. Not super reliable.

Also we find out about offers next week. It's possible individuals are notified early if they're cold* offered. But this idea that a firm would cold* offer 20 people is wild. They know that these forums exist and that a cold offer would be treated similar to a no offer by prospective summers.

Okay then don't take it as a fact. I don't work for Kirkland nor do I particularly care about what they do or don't do. It seems crazier to me that someone who is going to work for a firm would just make up or exaggerate something like this. And, in my opinion, even if this is an elaborate game of telephone I strongly subscribe to the belief that "Where there's smoke,there's fire." Regardless, I believe them. Happy to be disproven conclusively that i'm wrong by someone at Kirkland NY.

Side but related note. You said you'd be happy to verify with a MOD. What exactly would you verify with them if you don't work at Kirkland? That you have a friend that does?

"Okay then don't take it as fact." You had to know that posting something like this on TLS would invite questions about the source of this information. It sounds like you really haven't asked your friend how they've come to learn of 20 cold offers. Don't take it personally that someone pointed out how flimsy this is. Doesn't mean they're attacking your intentions.

[Anonymous User]

Hey there this is the original OP who posted about Kirkland NY. I can confirm with a mod if necessary, but my information comes directly from a SA at Kirkland NY.

How would a SA know that twenty people were cold offered?

OP again. I don't know how exactly they know and although the claim is pretty wild, this person would have no reason to lie about this and neither do I. But besides that, even if nobody told him that explicitly (which i highly doubt considering the nature of the claim i.e. the specific things mentioned) it'd also be pretty easy to figure out. Word spreads fast and people talk.

It would be easy to figure out that 20 people were cold* offered? How?

You heard this from a summer and are taking it as fact or a matter of intention. People lie about shit all the time. For fun or out of anxiety. Or they exaggerate. Even if your friend is not the type to lie, he may very well have heard it from another SA. Not super reliable.

Also we find out about offers next week. It's possible individuals are notified early if they're cold* offered. But this idea that a firm would cold* offer 20 people is wild. They know that these forums exist and that a cold offer would be treated similar to a no offer by prospective summers.

Okay then don't take it as a fact. I don't work for Kirkland nor do I particularly care about what they do or don't do. It seems crazier to me that someone who is going to work for a firm would just make up or exaggerate something like this. And, in my opinion, even if this is an elaborate game of telephone I strongly subscribe to the belief that "Where there's smoke,there's fire." Regardless, I believe them. Happy to be disproven conclusively that i'm wrong by someone at Kirkland NY.

Side but related note. You said you'd be happy to verify with a MOD. What exactly would you verify with them if you don't work at Kirkland? That you have a friend that does?

"Okay then don't take it as fact." You had to know that posting something like this on TLS would invite questions about the source of this information. It sounds like you really haven't asked your friend how they've come to learn of 20 cold offers. Don't take it personally that someone pointed out how flimsy this is. Doesn't mean they're attacking your intentions.

For sure, I'm not taking anything personally, sorry if it comes across that way. I do have a problem with people insinuating that i should be un-anon'd or insinuating that i'm lying. I'm only posting in accordance with the purpose of this thread. I believe what my friend said it and that friend has no reason to lie. What I said is based on "evidence" that I got as opposed to what anyone else chooses to believe or say, unless that person can conclusively disprove that what my friend said is false.

In terms of how "flimsy", this info is- I mean, someone who works for the company told me this. Like i said, I'm happy to be disproven. In terms of verification, what I mean is that I can verify what was said was said, and the info is coming from someone who would/could have knowledge of that matter, in terms of a SA at Kirkland and that they are asserting it as true.

[Anonymous User]

Did hear from some friends that people at KE were cold offered, but how many I don’t know. Also heard that one SA at either Morgan Lewis or Mayor Brown (can’t remember which one) was told to do 3L oci

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Hey there this is the original OP who posted about Kirkland NY. I can confirm with a mod if necessary, but my information comes directly from a SA at Kirkland NY.

How would a SA know that twenty people were cold offered?

OP again. I don't know how exactly they know and although the claim is pretty wild, this person would have no reason to lie about this and neither do I. But besides that, even if nobody told him that explicitly (which i highly doubt considering the nature of the claim i.e. the specific things mentioned) it'd also be pretty easy to figure out. Word spreads fast and people talk.

It would be easy to figure out that 20 people were cold* offered? How?

You heard this from a summer and are taking it as fact or a matter of intention. People lie about shit all the time. For fun or out of anxiety. Or they exaggerate. Even if your friend is not the type to lie, he may very well have heard it from another SA. Not super reliable.

Also we find out about offers next week. It's possible individuals are notified early if they're cold* offered. But this idea that a firm would cold* offer 20 people is wild. They know that these forums exist and that a cold offer would be treated similar to a no offer by prospective summers.

Okay then don't take it as a fact. I don't work for Kirkland nor do I particularly care about what they do or don't do. It seems crazier to me that someone who is going to work for a firm would just make up or exaggerate something like this. And, in my opinion, even if this is an elaborate game of telephone I strongly subscribe to the belief that "Where there's smoke,there's fire." Regardless, I believe them. Happy to be disproven conclusively that i'm wrong by someone at Kirkland NY.

Side but related note. You said you'd be happy to verify with a MOD. What exactly would you verify with them if you don't work at Kirkland? That you have a friend that does?

"Okay then don't take it as fact." You had to know that posting something like this on TLS would invite questions about the source of this information. It sounds like you really haven't asked your friend how they've come to learn of 20 cold offers. Don't take it personally that someone pointed out how flimsy this is. Doesn't mean they're attacking your intentions.

For sure, I'm not taking anything personally, sorry if it comes across that way. I do have a problem with people insinuating that i should be un-anon'd or insinuating that i'm lying. I'm only posting in accordance with the purpose of this thread. I believe what my friend said it and that friend has no reason to lie. What I said is based on "evidence" that I got as opposed to what anyone else chooses to believe or say, unless that person can conclusively disprove that what my friend said is false.

In terms of how "flimsy", this info is- I mean, someone who works for the company told me this. Like i said, I'm happy to be disproven. In terms of verification, what I mean is that I can verify what was said was said, and the info is coming from someone who would/could have knowledge of that matter, in terms of a SA at Kirkland and that they are asserting it as true.

I only said you should un-anon'd if it turns out that you were trolling the board by fabricating the story wholecloth.

[Anonymous User]

Did hear from some friends that people at KE were cold offered, but how many I don’t know. Also heard that one SA at either Morgan Lewis or Mayor Brown (can’t remember which one) was told to do 3L oci

Damn shit is getting nasty out there...

[Anonymous User]

Hey there this is the original OP who posted about Kirkland NY. I can confirm with a mod if necessary, but my information comes directly from a SA at Kirkland NY.

How would a SA know that twenty people were cold offered?

OP again. I don't know how exactly they know and although the claim is pretty wild, this person would have no reason to lie about this and neither do I. But besides that, even if nobody told him that explicitly (which i highly doubt considering the nature of the claim i.e. the specific things mentioned) it'd also be pretty easy to figure out. Word spreads fast and people talk.

It would be easy to figure out that 20 people were cold* offered? How?

You heard this from a summer and are taking it as fact or a matter of intention. People lie about shit all the time. For fun or out of anxiety. Or they exaggerate. Even if your friend is not the type to lie, he may very well have heard it from another SA. Not super reliable.

Also we find out about offers next week. It's possible individuals are notified early if they're cold* offered. But this idea that a firm would cold* offer 20 people is wild. They know that these forums exist and that a cold offer would be treated similar to a no offer by prospective summers.

Okay then don't take it as a fact. I don't work for Kirkland nor do I particularly care about what they do or don't do. It seems crazier to me that someone who is going to work for a firm would just make up or exaggerate something like this. And, in my opinion, even if this is an elaborate game of telephone I strongly subscribe to the belief that "Where there's smoke,there's fire." Regardless, I believe them. Happy to be disproven conclusively that i'm wrong by someone at Kirkland NY.

Side but related note. You said you'd be happy to verify with a MOD. What exactly would you verify with them if you don't work at Kirkland? That you have a friend that does?

"Okay then don't take it as fact." You had to know that posting something like this on TLS would invite questions about the source of this information. It sounds like you really haven't asked your friend how they've come to learn of 20 cold offers. Don't take it personally that someone pointed out how flimsy this is. Doesn't mean they're attacking your intentions.

For sure, I'm not taking anything personally, sorry if it comes across that way. I do have a problem with people insinuating that i should be un-anon'd or insinuating that i'm lying. I'm only posting in accordance with the purpose of this thread. I believe what my friend said it and that friend has no reason to lie. What I said is based on "evidence" that I got as opposed to what anyone else chooses to believe or say, unless that person can conclusively disprove that what my friend said is false.

In terms of how "flimsy", this info is- I mean, someone who works for the company told me this. Like i said, I'm happy to be disproven. In terms of verification, what I mean is that I can verify what was said was said, and the info is coming from someone who would/could have knowledge of that matter, in terms of a SA at Kirkland and that they are asserting it as true.

Understandable re the individual that asked you to be un-anon'd. There is no way to verify whether you're lying or not anyway, so that suggestion is ridiculous. I think most people on here don't feel that you're lying, just that the information is not well vetted. Kirkland SAs work at the firm technically yet barely. I really think the fact that your friend has no reason to lie is irrelevant because the question was and remains: how do they know?

I may have missed it but I don't think you've answered that question.

[Anonymous User]

If I've heard rumors about SA's at other firms cheating on their SO's with other summers I feel like I'd have heard about 20 Kirkland cold/no offers.

[Anonymous User]

I think one of the things I find surprising is the idea that 20+ law students who grinded their way to (presumably) a top law school and got Kirkland SAs in one office would behave egregiously enough as described to get cold-offered. (I took the disrespect comment as more serious than the typical “dumb drunk comment at an event” thing, though who knows.) Maybe it’s plausible with a big enough SA class and the party atmosphere comment, but I’d have thought too many SAs were too neurotic to end up in that kind of a situation. If I’m not wrong (which I absolutely could be) and that many people are being encouraged not to take their offers, it would suggest trying to course-correct after overhiring.

Or honestly I wonder if there was some kind of weird misunderstanding about language and whoever gave out these offers said something that the SAs collectively decided meant the offers were cold, when that’s not what was intended. That’s probably implausible as well, but people do worry a lot about cold offers and how to recognize them (as someone earlier in this thread asked about).

[Anonymous User]

How would a SA know that twenty people were cold offered?

OP again. I don't know how exactly they know and although the claim is pretty wild, this person would have no reason to lie about this and neither do I. But besides that, even if nobody told him that explicitly (which i highly doubt considering the nature of the claim i.e. the specific things mentioned) it'd also be pretty easy to figure out. Word spreads fast and people talk.

It would be easy to figure out that 20 people were cold* offered? How?

You heard this from a summer and are taking it as fact or a matter of intention. People lie about shit all the time. For fun or out of anxiety. Or they exaggerate. Even if your friend is not the type to lie, he may very well have heard it from another SA. Not super reliable.

Also we find out about offers next week. It's possible individuals are notified early if they're cold* offered. But this idea that a firm would cold* offer 20 people is wild. They know that these forums exist and that a cold offer would be treated similar to a no offer by prospective summers.

Okay then don't take it as a fact. I don't work for Kirkland nor do I particularly care about what they do or don't do. It seems crazier to me that someone who is going to work for a firm would just make up or exaggerate something like this. And, in my opinion, even if this is an elaborate game of telephone I strongly subscribe to the belief that "Where there's smoke,there's fire." Regardless, I believe them. Happy to be disproven conclusively that i'm wrong by someone at Kirkland NY.

Side but related note. You said you'd be happy to verify with a MOD. What exactly would you verify with them if you don't work at Kirkland? That you have a friend that does?

"Okay then don't take it as fact." You had to know that posting something like this on TLS would invite questions about the source of this information. It sounds like you really haven't asked your friend how they've come to learn of 20 cold offers. Don't take it personally that someone pointed out how flimsy this is. Doesn't mean they're attacking your intentions.

For sure, I'm not taking anything personally, sorry if it comes across that way. I do have a problem with people insinuating that i should be un-anon'd or insinuating that i'm lying. I'm only posting in accordance with the purpose of this thread. I believe what my friend said it and that friend has no reason to lie. What I said is based on "evidence" that I got as opposed to what anyone else chooses to believe or say, unless that person can conclusively disprove that what my friend said is false.

In terms of how "flimsy", this info is- I mean, someone who works for the company told me this. Like i said, I'm happy to be disproven. In terms of verification, what I mean is that I can verify what was said was said, and the info is coming from someone who would/could have knowledge of that matter, in terms of a SA at Kirkland and that they are asserting it as true.

the question was and remains: how do they know?

I may have missed it but I don't think you've answered that question.

(Not OP btw) Certainly there needs to be more corroboration, but is it hard to consider the possibility that the NY SAs are in group chats and word quickly spread that several of them were given the same cold offer talk during their reviews?