K&E (Chi) v. NY V5 - Litigation Forum

[Anonymous User]

The idea that you can’t lateral from K&E Chi to the “top” NY-hq’ed firms, many of which have weaker lit practices than K&E NYC (Band 1 in comm lit), let alone K&E Chi, is absurd. Everyone in biglaw in the country knows that K&E Chi is a top, top office. There are plenty of valid reasons for choosing between these firms but that’s a non-issue

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

I genuinely don’t feel safe in Chicago outside of the area immediately surrounding my office in the Loop, during the day. I personally wouldn’t choose to live here, but then again, NYC is ridiculously expensive so pick your poison I guess.

I live in Chicago and this doesn't make much sense to me. Not doubting your feelings but neighborhoods you'd likely live in, and the suburbs you'd end up in eventually, are all safe. It's not like NYC doesn't have areas to avoid.

Chicago is objectively more dangerous in terms of crime. Not that the OP is likely to be a victim of violent crime in either city.

[Anonymous User]

I genuinely don’t feel safe in Chicago outside of the area immediately surrounding my office in the Loop, during the day. I personally wouldn’t choose to live here, but then again, NYC is ridiculously expensive so pick your poison I guess.

I live in Chicago and this doesn't make much sense to me. Not doubting your feelings but neighborhoods you'd likely live in, and the suburbs you'd end up in eventually, are all safe. It's not like NYC doesn't have areas to avoid.

Chicago is objectively more dangerous in terms of crime. Not that the OP is likely to be a victim of violent crime in either city.

It's objectively more dangerous if you compare citywide stats. But I'm not sure that holds if you look just at specific neighborhoods, or if you compare North Jersey suburbs to Chicago suburbs. And Chicago's affordability is underrated. I've lived in both cities and my neighborhood in Chicago (where I can afford a house with a yard) is much quieter and safer than where I lived in Brooklyn.

[LBJ's Hair]

The idea that you can’t lateral from K&E Chi to the “top” NY-hq’ed firms, many of which have weaker lit practices than K&E NYC (Band 1 in comm lit), let alone K&E Chi, is absurd. Everyone in biglaw in the country knows that K&E Chi is a top, top office. There are plenty of valid reasons for choosing between these firms but that’s a non-issue

most people outside of Kirkland are not even aware of, let alone care about, whatever imagined pecking order exists among between offices

a K&E litigator in CHI should be able to interview at other V10 NY firms because K&E is a peer, not b/c we NY attorneys think of "Kirkland Chicago" as the Munger of the Midwest or whatever

[Anonymous User]

I genuinely don’t feel safe in Chicago outside of the area immediately surrounding my office in the Loop, during the day. I personally wouldn’t choose to live here, but then again, NYC is ridiculously expensive so pick your poison I guess.

I live in Chicago and this doesn't make much sense to me. Not doubting your feelings but neighborhoods you'd likely live in, and the suburbs you'd end up in eventually, are all safe. It's not like NYC doesn't have areas to avoid.

Chicago is objectively more dangerous in terms of crime. Not that the OP is likely to be a victim of violent crime in either city.

It's objectively more dangerous if you compare citywide stats. But I'm not sure that holds if you look just at specific neighborhoods, or if you compare North Jersey suburbs to Chicago suburbs. And Chicago's affordability is underrated. I've lived in both cities and my neighborhood in Chicago (where I can afford a house with a yard) is much quieter and safer than where I lived in Brooklyn.

The Loop, River North, Gold Coast, and Streeterville (all the neighborhoods immediately surrounding KE's Chicago office) have all gotten more sketch over the past two years. The Loop especially. The old argument of "eh, Chicago's crime stats aren't great but that's mostly in OTHER places where OTHER people live" used to be true but has become less true the past twenty-four months -- crime is way up in the downtown area and this has been prominently covered in various media outlets and crime stat trackers.

Does it feel unsafe in any of those areas during the day? No. But even in the middle of the day the energy is just not the same as it was pre-COVID. And at night there have been some wild events; the Loop empties out at night in a way it didn't before COVID and the other neighborhoods can get super sketchy up to violent crime (shootings in the middle of the night in places where there never used to be gun violence). I wouldn't downplay the safety aspect of this decision. And if I were going to KE Chicago I'd seriously consider selecting an apartment outside those areas--I'd look strongly at West Loop or West Town.

(I don't think this is a "forever" issue but I do think it's potentially a "new few years" issue. Don't want to get into politics but we're going to need to see some "leadership changes" before things turn around.)

This is all to say this isn't a straightforward decision. KE CHI has a storied and nationally renowned litigation department involved in some of the largest cases in the country (and your experience there will be 100% portable to anywhere else). You'll make more money there than at a rival V10/V5 because of the bonus multiplier. The CoL is better. But the crime is worse in Chicago than in NYC in a way that's apparent even in the formerly "safe" areas. And Chicago, while it's a great city, isn't in the same tier as NYC (which is a truly global city more along the lines of London, Tokyo).

[Anonymous User]

There are probably a thousand more legitimate reasons to choose between KE Chicago and a NY V5 than the crime rate in the Loop or Streeterville. I can't believe how much attention this is getting in this thread.

Choose based on your preferred pizza style and that would make more sense.

[Anonymous User]

There are probably a thousand more legitimate reasons to choose between KE Chicago and a NY V5 than the crime rate in the Loop or Streeterville. I can't believe how much attention this is getting in this thread.

Choose based on your preferred pizza style and that would make more sense.

I don’t think that’s true. This should primarily be a lifestyle choice since, as many others have pointed out, there isn’t going to be a huge difference in experience / prestige.

Crime is undeniably at the core of how many people experience quality of life in urban areas. It isn’t trivial. There has been significant movement of professionals and industry in the last 36mo in response to the pervasive and very real crime problem in Chicago, as well as other cities like SF. Look at the movement stats—many professionals are literally uprooting themselves and their families because of this issue. I don’t think it’s a crazy consideration.

Counterpoint though: NYC has gotten pretty bad lately though too, especially in midtown. Know of at least three close friends who were assaulted or mugged near bank / firm offices in the last year, and the subway is like rolling the dice with your life. For the cost of living savings, I think Chicago is still worth it as a quality of life option depending on ones tolerance for crime, which is a completely valid and very individual thing.

[Anonymous User]

There are probably a thousand more legitimate reasons to choose between KE Chicago and a NY V5 than the crime rate in the Loop or Streeterville. I can't believe how much attention this is getting in this thread.

Choose based on your preferred pizza style and that would make more sense.

I don’t think that’s true. This should primarily be a lifestyle choice since, as many others have pointed out, there isn’t going to be a huge difference in experience / prestige.

Crime is undeniably at the core of how many people experience quality of life in urban areas. It isn’t trivial. There has been significant movement of professionals and industry in the last 36mo in response to the pervasive and very real crime problem in Chicago, as well as other cities like SF. Look at the movement stats—many professionals are literally uprooting themselves and their families because of this issue. I don’t think it’s a crazy consideration.

Counterpoint though: NYC has gotten pretty bad lately though too, especially in midtown. Know of at least three close friends who were assaulted or mugged near bank / firm offices in the last year, and the subway is like rolling the dice with your life. For the cost of living savings, I think Chicago is still worth it as a quality of life option depending on ones tolerance for crime, which is a completely valid and very individual thing.

It's a completely trivial consideration for Chicago vs. NYC.

The subway is not like rolling the dice with your life. If a person believes that, then NY or Chicago or similar markets are probably not for them. Find a firm with a Northern Virginia or Orange County office and live in the burbs.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

The elevated trains in Chicago are spooky as hell, with few professionals, lots of sketchy folks and very limited police presence. If you’re walking in from nearby, driving, or taking the Metra, should be fine IMO.

Given that OP is location agnostic, I still think he should take the money and work in Chi. Literally a bigger paycheck in addition to much lower COL. and I don’t think we need to sugarcoat the very real crime and safety problems in Chicago in order to to reach that conclusion

[Anonymous User]

The elevated trains in Chicago are spooky as hell, with few professionals, lots of sketchy folks and very limited police presence. If you’re walking in from nearby, driving, or taking the Metra, should be fine IMO.

Given that OP is location agnostic, I still think he should take the money and work in Chi. Literally a bigger paycheck in addition to much lower COL. and I don’t think we need to sugarcoat the very real crime and safety problems in Chicago in order to to reach that conclusion

Haven't seen anything "spooky as hell" on the El, even in the evening, although I don't take the Red line often. Find a spot on Brown/Purple and you're fine. Or on a bus line.

Since KE is the Chicago option: after 7pm you can get your ride home reimbursed if you live in the city. But there have been plenty of professionals both in the morning and in the evening before 7, even these past couple months "after" covid.

[LBJ's Hair]

Counterpoint though: NYC has gotten pretty bad lately though too, especially in midtown. Know of at least three close friends who were assaulted or mugged near bank / firm offices in the last year, and the subway is like rolling the dice with your life. For the cost of living savings, I think Chicago is still worth it as a quality of life option depending on ones tolerance for crime, which is a completely valid and very individual thing.

things have been worse since pandemic but bolded is absurd.

[Anonymous User]

The idea that you can’t lateral from K&E Chi to the “top” NY-hq’ed firms, many of which have weaker lit practices than K&E NYC (Band 1 in comm lit), let alone K&E Chi, is absurd. Everyone in biglaw in the country knows that K&E Chi is a top, top office. There are plenty of valid reasons for choosing between these firms but that’s a non-issue

most people outside of Kirkland are not even aware of, let alone care about, whatever imagined pecking order exists among between offices

a K&E litigator in CHI should be able to interview at other V10 NY firms because K&E is a peer, not b/c we NY attorneys think of "Kirkland Chicago" as the Munger of the Midwest or whatever

Who doesn’t know that Kirkland is Chicago-headquartered and (with Sidley) the top Chicago firm? Kirkland isn’t the Munger of the Midwest, if any firm is it’s Bartlit, but nobody suggested that

[Anonymous User]

The elevated trains in Chicago are spooky as hell, with few professionals, lots of sketchy folks and very limited police presence. If you’re walking in from nearby, driving, or taking the Metra, should be fine IMO.

Given that OP is location agnostic, I still think he should take the money and work in Chi. Literally a bigger paycheck in addition to much lower COL. and I don’t think we need to sugarcoat the very real crime and safety problems in Chicago in order to to reach that conclusion

It is hard to overstate how laughable it is to say that the L, one of the busiest mass transit systems in the country, is used by “few professionals.” Most professional-class Chicagoans do not own cars and rely exclusively or mainly on the L for transit.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

The elevated trains in Chicago are spooky as hell, with few professionals, lots of sketchy folks and very limited police presence. If you’re walking in from nearby, driving, or taking the Metra, should be fine IMO.

Given that OP is location agnostic, I still think he should take the money and work in Chi. Literally a bigger paycheck in addition to much lower COL. and I don’t think we need to sugarcoat the very real crime and safety problems in Chicago in order to to reach that conclusion

It is hard to overstate how laughable it is to say that the L, one of the busiest mass transit systems in the country, is used by “few professionals.” Most professional-class Chicagoans do not own cars and rely exclusively or mainly on the L for transit.

Actually, 70% of Chicago households have a car. So I’d think most professionals would have cars. The L makes the NYC subway look like a black tie soirée

[Anonymous User]

The elevated trains in Chicago are spooky as hell, with few professionals, lots of sketchy folks and very limited police presence. If you’re walking in from nearby, driving, or taking the Metra, should be fine IMO.

Given that OP is location agnostic, I still think he should take the money and work in Chi. Literally a bigger paycheck in addition to much lower COL. and I don’t think we need to sugarcoat the very real crime and safety problems in Chicago in order to to reach that conclusion

It is hard to overstate how laughable it is to say that the L, one of the busiest mass transit systems in the country, is used by “few professionals.” Most professional-class Chicagoans do not own cars and rely exclusively or mainly on the L for transit.

Actually, 70% of Chicago households have a car. So I’d think most professionals would have cars. The L makes the NYC subway look like a black tie soirée

I'm sorry but this is pure bullshit. I have taken the L in to and fro in Chi to Kirkland and now to another firm deeper into the loop and this is plainly wrong. In the morning both brown and purple lines are completely full of commuters in professional attire. In the evening from 5-8, Purple, Brown, and Red lines are full of bankers/lawyers/tech/whatever people commuting home. The red line is by far the worst, and that's mostly because of the Cubs fans packing the train heading north. The L system is also very, very clean compared to NYC subways.

Now to actually contribute, I guess, the Red line is the worst of the lines - it runs the full length of the city and has the highest concentration of "weirdos" on it. It's also usually very packed. The Green line is fine, smells like weed though. Purple/Brown/Blue are consistently pleasant.

[Anonymous User]

The elevated trains in Chicago are spooky as hell, with few professionals, lots of sketchy folks and very limited police presence. If you’re walking in from nearby, driving, or taking the Metra, should be fine IMO.

Given that OP is location agnostic, I still think he should take the money and work in Chi. Literally a bigger paycheck in addition to much lower COL. and I don’t think we need to sugarcoat the very real crime and safety problems in Chicago in order to to reach that conclusion

It is hard to overstate how laughable it is to say that the L, one of the busiest mass transit systems in the country, is used by “few professionals.” Most professional-class Chicagoans do not own cars and rely exclusively or mainly on the L for transit.

Actually, 70% of Chicago households have a car. So I’d think most professionals would have cars. The L makes the NYC subway look like a black tie soirée

The most PMC parts of Chicago are particularly unfriendly to cars because they’re so dense, whereas the poorer areas tend to be less walkable and more auto-based, so your assumption is wrong.

But more generally, this is genuinely baffling, as the other poster said. I split time between NYC and Chicago for personal reasons, use both the L and the Subway regularly, and can’t tell a real difference in the makeup of commuters. Chicago is cleaner, NYC has more buskers, I guess.

[Anonymous User]

Chicago in general is cleaner because the garbage is in the alleys, not piled up on the sidewalk. Also we don't have those ridiculous sheds. The areas worth living in are less walkable, this is true. But they also have more parking. I drive to work fwiw.

[Anonymous User]

Really curious what you people are doing that I haven't been, because the downtown Chicago neighborhoods aren't remotely dangerous. I frequently walk around Fulton Market, West Loop, the Loop, Streeterville, and River North in the AMs and have lived in that set of neighborhoods for a decade. I have never once felt unsafe. Pretty much the biggest life pro tip in Chicago is to not join a gang, and you're fine. Pretty sure 90% of the downtown violence is gang members rolling up on each other. Also, the homeless are generally quite nice and completely harmless people.

I'm getting some major suburban/Indiana/FOX News energy from the "let's not kid ourselves about Chicago crime" comments. The reality of Chicago crime is that it's mostly in the West- and South-side neighborhoods. When it comes out of those neighborhoods, it's typically traveling gang crime. Yes, there has been a spike recently in crimes that very likely are not gang related, but it's just not something you're statistically likely to ever suffer from.

Red/Brown/Purple are all completely fine lines that I ride on daily/weekly. IMO, the worst line is the Green line followed by the Blue line. Don't really ride on Orange or Pink to have an opinion.

Regardless, Chicago should be the easiest choice in the world here. You could easily save $20k/yr. more in post-tax dollars.

[Anonymous User]

Really curious what you people are doing that I haven't been, because the downtown Chicago neighborhoods aren't remotely dangerous. I frequently walk around Fulton Market, West Loop, the Loop, Streeterville, and River North in the AMs and have lived in that set of neighborhoods for a decade. I have never once felt unsafe. Pretty much the biggest life pro tip in Chicago is to not join a gang, and you're fine. Pretty sure 90% of the downtown violence is gang members rolling up on each other. Also, the homeless are generally quite nice and completely harmless people.

I'm getting some major suburban/Indiana/FOX News energy from the "let's not kid ourselves about Chicago crime" comments. The reality of Chicago crime is that it's mostly in the West- and South-side neighborhoods. When it comes out of those neighborhoods, it's typically traveling gang crime. Yes, there has been a spike recently in crimes that very likely are not gang related, but it's just not something you're statistically likely to ever suffer from.

I’m the person who started this conversation (sorry everyone, not /s lol). I moved from another major city where I never once felt unsafe in the most popular areas of the downtown.

Chicago is different. You’re just blissfully ignorant if you don’t notice the shootings in River North (there was a broad daylight drive by posted on twitter a few weeks ago, as well as a mass shooting near the Chicago red line stop) and the Loop (16yr old was killed in Millenium Park in May, prompting a curfew there). You’re not wrong that most of this violence has at least some correlation to gang affiliation, but it doesn’t take away from the fact that this city is more dangerous than many others.

It’s the same reason Citadel is relocating. And the same reason why the police department won’t have any officers in 15 years (application reductions to the PD are staggering). I’m not saying it’s a literal war zone like Fox does, but if you leave the most wealthy blocks in the city, you need to be vigilant.

Edit to add: Also, I understand the defensiveness from a lot of Chicagoans. Fox/the media definitely exaggerates the violence here. I also like the city, just feel like I live in the wrong area.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

The elevated trains in Chicago are spooky as hell, with few professionals, lots of sketchy folks and very limited police presence. If you’re walking in from nearby, driving, or taking the Metra, should be fine IMO.

Given that OP is location agnostic, I still think he should take the money and work in Chi. Literally a bigger paycheck in addition to much lower COL. and I don’t think we need to sugarcoat the very real crime and safety problems in Chicago in order to to reach that conclusion

It is hard to overstate how laughable it is to say that the L, one of the busiest mass transit systems in the country, is used by “few professionals.” Most professional-class Chicagoans do not own cars and rely exclusively or mainly on the L for transit.

Actually, 70% of Chicago households have a car. So I’d think most professionals would have cars. The L makes the NYC subway look like a black tie soirée

I'm sorry but this is pure bullshit. I have taken the L in to and fro in Chi to Kirkland and now to another firm deeper into the loop and this is plainly wrong. In the morning both brown and purple lines are completely full of commuters in professional attire. In the evening from 5-8, Purple, Brown, and Red lines are full of bankers/lawyers/tech/whatever people commuting home. The red line is by far the worst, and that's mostly because of the Cubs fans packing the train heading north. The L system is also very, very clean compared to NYC subways.

Now to actually contribute, I guess, the Red line is the worst of the lines - it runs the full length of the city and has the highest concentration of "weirdos" on it. It's also usually very packed. The Green line is fine, smells like weed though. Purple/Brown/Blue are consistently pleasant.

I still think OP should work at K&E, but — you are promoting a false reality about Chicago.

First off, Professional attire =/= a professional. Biglaw takes in 500 new hires max per year in that entire market, and banking is less half that number — most of the banks are smaller and taking 0-3 interns. Unless you think making one PowerPoint per month on the price of ketchup or Oreos is professional job, that train is not full of professionals

But I can already see that the Chicago homers have rolled in to describe a vibrant environment brimming with alleyways, Cubs fans, and affluent professionals who totally definitely ride the L train everyday.

[Anonymous User]

Really curious what you people are doing that I haven't been, because the downtown Chicago neighborhoods aren't remotely dangerous. I frequently walk around Fulton Market, West Loop, the Loop, Streeterville, and River North in the AMs and have lived in that set of neighborhoods for a decade. I have never once felt unsafe. Pretty much the biggest life pro tip in Chicago is to not join a gang, and you're fine. Pretty sure 90% of the downtown violence is gang members rolling up on each other. Also, the homeless are generally quite nice and completely harmless people.

I'm getting some major suburban/Indiana/FOX News energy from the "let's not kid ourselves about Chicago crime" comments. The reality of Chicago crime is that it's mostly in the West- and South-side neighborhoods. When it comes out of those neighborhoods, it's typically traveling gang crime. Yes, there has been a spike recently in crimes that very likely are not gang related, but it's just not something you're statistically likely to ever suffer from.

I’m the person who started this conversation (sorry everyone, not /s lol). I moved from another major city where I never once felt unsafe in the most popular areas of the downtown.

Chicago is different. You’re just blissfully ignorant if you don’t notice the shootings in River North (there was a broad daylight drive by posted on twitter a few weeks ago, as well as a mass shooting near the Chicago red line stop) and the Loop (16yr old was killed in Millenium Park in May, prompting a curfew there). You’re not wrong that most of this violence has at least some correlation to gang affiliation, but it doesn’t take away from the fact that this city is more dangerous than many others.

It’s the same reason Citadel is relocating. And the same reason why the police department won’t have any officers in 15 years (application reductions to the PD are staggering). I’m not saying it’s a literal war zone like Fox does, but if you leave the most wealthy blocks in the city, you need to be vigilant.

Edit to add: Also, I understand the defensiveness from a lot of Chicagoans. Fox/the media definitely exaggerates the violence here. I also like the city, just feel like I live in the wrong area.

This is an accurate take. No it's not the war zone Fox News would like you to believe it is. Yes, violent crime is definitely up in places where it wasn't occuring three years ago. The people who are blissfully arguing "everything is totally fine I ride the Red Line every day w/ my pro headphones and LV bag no problems also P.S. I'm a transplant from Madison!" are lining up to be the next statistic. People are getting shot in the Gold Coast in the afternoon while people dine. Someone was just stabbed on the Blue Line near Dearborn at 5pm and almost bled to death. Yes, these events are still relatively rare. But they weren't happening like this pre-COVID and to deny them is dangerous head-in-the-sand thinking.

If you're city savvy, you're going to be fine. I think Lightfoot is going to get kicked to the curb and this trend is going to reverse, although it's going to take a few years. But my radar is definitely up when I'm walking around in a way that it wasn't in 2019; you should not be blase about this.

[trebekismyhero]

As someone who lives in Chicago, but spends a lot of time in NYC, I think both sides are probably exaggerating things a bit. River North and the loop definitely are sketchier than they were prior to the pandemic. With that said, NYC is also a little sketchier. I definitely feel a little different on the L than I did pre-pandemic, but the idea that professionals aren't taking it anymore is absurd. It is still fairly safe during the day, particularly the brown and purple and the northern part of Blue is fine (I don't really take any other lines). I agree and hope it turns around once Lightfoot is gone. But it is not worth picking one over the other. As another poster said, if crime is that big of a concern, neither are probably right for you. If you do feel sketchy about the L, you'll be making enough at K&E to get a car or take ubers.

[Mullens]

LOL at believing Ken Griffin’s spin regarding the move to Florida. He’s moving because his money can’t buy influence in Chicago/Illinois politics anymore (getting outspent by Pritzker and wasting $50M on a third place GOP governor candidate). The violence angle is just a GOP talking point (he’s the largest current DeSantis donor).

[MrTooToo]

LOL at believing Ken Griffin’s spin regarding the move to Florida. He’s moving because his money can’t buy influence in Chicago/Illinois politics anymore (getting outspent by Pritzker and wasting $50M on a third place GOP governor candidate). The violence angle is just a GOP talking point (he’s the largest current DeSantis donor).

This is a cool hot take that ignores the fact that a bunch of highly compensated employees are sick of working in an HQ in an area where there are wildings every weekend and that feels desolate during the week. Have you spent any time in the southern portion of the Loop lately? If I were make $4.5m as a managing partner at Citadel (either the market maker or the HF) I, too, would say "I've had enough of this shit" and I'm sure Ken's been hearing that from his employees for the past two years after dealing with the state of Chicago post-2019. Moving from a dead downtown district in a cold winter Midwest city to Miami seems like a no brainer and I'm sure they'll all be crying on their sport boats every weekend about missing Chicago's "cultural mileu" under the Lightfoot administration. Griffin's been trying to influence IL politics for years. He has had some successes (like defeating the progressive tax) and some failures (like keeping Rauner in office). It's been like that for decades and attributing his move to some recent political vicissitude versus the much more obvious primary cause doesn't make sense.

[Anonymous User]

I have totally derailed your thread with my comment about Chicago, OP. I apologize.

I would say you should visit both cities/offices and see which you prefer. From a work standpoint, I don’t think you can go wrong either way, and yes, lateraling is of course an option.

As you can see, people on both sides have strong feelings about the city. You’ll just have to make your own.