Solidly below median at T14. Am I screwed? Forum

[Anonymous User]

This isn't productive for OP, but I thought biglaw was essentially "guaranteed" from the t14?

[Anonymous User]

This isn't productive for OP, but I thought biglaw was essentially "guaranteed" from the t14?

It is, but pre-recession + over enrollment worries.

Also, Davis Polk =/= Blank Rome lol.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

This isn't productive for OP, but I thought biglaw was essentially "guaranteed" from the t14?

I would not call it guaranteed. people strike out every year, even at top schools. It’d be a bit odd to me for someone to strike out at Y/S, but depending on how unreasonably they targeted their job search, and how badly they interviewed, it’s possible.

[Anonymous User]

It’s not even guaranteed for the top 1/3 of the class. If you are too aggressive in bidding and you can’t explain why you want to do biglaw or a particular firm, you’ll be screwed. It doesn’t matter the school.

[Anonymous User]

This isn't productive for OP, but I thought biglaw was essentially "guaranteed" from the t14?

If you look at the stats for most T14's, you can glean that yes, essentially everyone who wants BigLaw gets BigLaw by the time they graduate. If your school is posting 70-80% BL + FC numbers, that means *almost* everyone who wants BL gets that or a clerkship.

There are people who strike out and get nothing, but my sense is that people over-emphasize the horror stories without realizing how hundreds of students go through the process at their school every year. Of course, the other reason why people freak out is that many students get wedded to the idea of "prestigious" BL, which is definitely not guaranteed and students who pursue it in spite of bad grades might have a bad time, even from T14.

Also, sometimes striking out means you have extra stress, mass mail, 3L OCI, etc. Essentially, plenty of the students who strike out still get BL but it might be a lower ranked firm than they expected and after significantly more stress.

[Barry grandpapy]

It’s not even guaranteed for the top 1/3 of the class. If you are too aggressive in bidding and you can’t explain why you want to do biglaw or a particular firm, you’ll be screwed. It doesn’t matter the school.

I get that nothing is really guaranteed but this is a dumb and overly negative take. If you can carry on a normal conversation for 20 minutes and are top third at a t14 you will get an offer.

Top third at these schools basically means maxing out on OCI interviews. I think at my school that was 20 guaranteed interviews, even if you went all in on grade sensitive firms and tough markets.

Yeah biglaw interviews probably should require an explanation of 'why biglaw' - but that's surprisingly not required lol. Every year people with great grades at these schools routinely talk about getting offers after talking about anything from D&D, actual skills, past vacations, the fucking weather, or whatever the hell they watched on Netflix for the majority of their interviews.

Duh, don't go all in on the most elitist firms or niche markets. But come on - with top 1/3 class you're getting an offer unless you put something like "turtles" as your sole interest or go all in on niche firms/insular markets. But at that point nobody feels bad you.

Also, solidly below median doesn't remotely mean you're screwed OP.

[Anonymous User]

I would not have believed it either until I saw it with my own eyes. Two students I knew well, both socially adjusted and easily top 1/3rd, struck out in one cycle. People I know well enough to know their exact GPA is a small sample size, so I can imagine there were plenty more out there. OCI strike outs are very common. People still get a summer job, but you are looking at 5% to 50% OCI strike outs across the T14. The T6 is around 20% strike out and it goes down hill from there.

But this doesn’t have to be a negative story for OP. That top students still strike out is a positive because it means there is more to OCI success than grades.

[Anonymous User]

I would not have believed it either until I saw it with my own eyes. Two students I knew well, both socially adjusted and easily top 1/3rd, struck out in one cycle. People I know well enough to know their exact GPA is a small sample size, so I can imagine there were plenty more out there. OCI strike outs are very common. People still get a summer job, but you are looking at 5% to 50% OCI strike outs across the T14. The T6 is around 20% strike out and it goes down hill from there.

But this doesn’t have to be a negative story for OP. That top students still strike out is a positive because it means there is more to OCI success than grades.

There is absolutely not a 20% strike out rate in the T6.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

I would not have believed it either until I saw it with my own eyes. Two students I knew well, both socially adjusted and easily top 1/3rd, struck out in one cycle. People I know well enough to know their exact GPA is a small sample size, so I can imagine there were plenty more out there. OCI strike outs are very common. People still get a summer job, but you are looking at 5% to 50% OCI strike outs across the T14. The T6 is around 20% strike out and it goes down hill from there.

But this doesn’t have to be a negative story for OP. That top students still strike out is a positive because it means there is more to OCI success than grades.

There is absolutely not a 20% strike out rate in the T6.

If we’re talking OCI strikeout, yeah 20% could happen at a T6. Didn’t happen in 2021 recruiting season, but has happened before and will happen again. I’d add that a T6 strikeout has a good chance of still getting a job in biglaw in a normal economy — they should mass mail and get in touch with career services and any profs who like them.

[Barry grandpapy]

I would not have believed it either until I saw it with my own eyes. Two students I knew well, both socially adjusted and easily top 1/3rd, struck out in one cycle. People I know well enough to know their exact GPA is a small sample size, so I can imagine there were plenty more out there. OCI strike outs are very common. People still get a summer job, but you are looking at 5% to 50% OCI strike outs across the T14. The T6 is around 20% strike out and it goes down hill from there.

But this doesn’t have to be a negative story for OP.

I think you're just freaking out any readers going through OCI with objectively bad and made up data, unless someone from '23 can attest to a meteoric plummet in schoolwide OCI offers across the t14.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

I would not have believed it either until I saw it with my own eyes. Two students I knew well, both socially adjusted and easily top 1/3rd, struck out in one cycle. People I know well enough to know their exact GPA is a small sample size, so I can imagine there were plenty more out there. OCI strike outs are very common. People still get a summer job, but you are looking at 5% to 50% OCI strike outs across the T14. The T6 is around 20% strike out and it goes down hill from there.

But this doesn’t have to be a negative story for OP.

I think you're just freaking out any readers going through OCI with objectively bad and made up data, unless someone from '23 can attest to a meteoric plummet in schoolwide OCI offers across the t14.

I think the issue is that the % who get biglaw through OCI is only a subset of placement stats eventually reported on ABA disclosures

[Anonymous User]

I would not have believed it either until I saw it with my own eyes. Two students I knew well, both socially adjusted and easily top 1/3rd, struck out in one cycle. People I know well enough to know their exact GPA is a small sample size, so I can imagine there were plenty more out there. OCI strike outs are very common. People still get a summer job, but you are looking at 5% to 50% OCI strike outs across the T14. The T6 is around 20% strike out and it goes down hill from there.

But this doesn’t have to be a negative story for OP.

I think you're just freaking out any readers going through OCI with objectively bad and made up data, unless someone from '23 can attest to a meteoric plummet in schoolwide OCI offers across the t14.

I think the issue is that the % who get biglaw through OCI is only a subset of placement stats eventually reported on ABA disclosures

This is true but basically every T14 has 70-80% going BL + FC. Quick math will tell you that means that *almost* everyone who wants BL gets it. Is it possible that 1/3 of T14 students are striking out at OCI and getting jobs through mass mailers, 3L OCI, connections, etc.? Sure, but the conventional wisdom is that's a much harder way to get a job. So it seems relatively unlikely nearly a third of T14 students are getting jobs that way, and nearly all students who strike out at OCI get a job through the *more* competitive channel.

[Anonymous User]

I would not have believed it either until I saw it with my own eyes. Two students I knew well, both socially adjusted and easily top 1/3rd, struck out in one cycle. People I know well enough to know their exact GPA is a small sample size, so I can imagine there were plenty more out there. OCI strike outs are very common. People still get a summer job, but you are looking at 5% to 50% OCI strike outs across the T14. The T6 is around 20% strike out and it goes down hill from there.

But this doesn’t have to be a negative story for OP.

I think you're just freaking out any readers going through OCI with objectively bad and made up data, unless someone from '23 can attest to a meteoric plummet in schoolwide OCI offers across the t14.

I think the issue is that the % who get biglaw through OCI is only a subset of placement stats eventually reported on ABA disclosures

Career services at MVPB told me that the typical OCI success rate is 75% FWIW.

[Barry grandpapy]

I would not have believed it either until I saw it with my own eyes. Two students I knew well, both socially adjusted and easily top 1/3rd, struck out in one cycle. People I know well enough to know their exact GPA is a small sample size, so I can imagine there were plenty more out there. OCI strike outs are very common. People still get a summer job, but you are looking at 5% to 50% OCI strike outs across the T14. The T6 is around 20% strike out and it goes down hill from there.

But this doesn’t have to be a negative story for OP.

I think you're just freaking out any readers going through OCI with objectively bad and made up data, unless someone from '23 can attest to a meteoric plummet in schoolwide OCI offers across the t14.

I think the issue is that the % who get biglaw through OCI is only a subset of placement stats eventually reported on ABA disclosures

I understand, but nobody knows that percentage. There's no fool proof way to back test graduate employment outcomes that accurately accounts for fed clerkship placement, boutique placement, and self-selected PI placement.

But, the anon's "50% strike out" upper guestimate for t14 strike out odds is objective bull shit that only freaks out clueless 2Ls reading this crap and probably going through OCI right now.

(Scooped by the above anon, ty for an actual data anecdote)

[Anonymous User]

Doesn't need to be a debate about feelings. NALP / google searches for "NALP employment data + X law school" will bring up hard self-reported data about number of folks who got jobs via OCI. There is less danger in "freaking out" before OCI than there is in being complacent or becoming despondent after striking out because you think you were the only one who struck out and OCI was your only chance.

And yes, the data isn't fool proof, but it's better a better data point than you'll find anywhere else.

[Anonymous User]

I would not have believed it either until I saw it with my own eyes. Two students I knew well, both socially adjusted and easily top 1/3rd, struck out in one cycle. People I know well enough to know their exact GPA is a small sample size, so I can imagine there were plenty more out there. OCI strike outs are very common. People still get a summer job, but you are looking at 5% to 50% OCI strike outs across the T14. The T6 is around 20% strike out and it goes down hill from there.

But this doesn’t have to be a negative story for OP. That top students still strike out is a positive because it means there is more to OCI success than grades.

EIW success rate at NYU was ~92% for Class of 2022 (so the covid Jan. recruits). The summer hiring was even better for the following class (at least for transactional folks). EIW rates also don't account for the small but still significant number of people who skipped OCI because they had accepted pre-OCI or returning 1L offers already.

[Anonymous User]

This isn't productive for OP, but I thought biglaw was essentially "guaranteed" from the t14?

During the Great Recession the biglaw rate for Georgetown, Michigan, and Berkeley, the weakest of the T14, was between 45 and 55 percent. I.e., 45-55 percent of the class did not get biglaw. Even taking into account public interest kool-aid drinkers, that's a hell of a lot of people who got screwed over.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Doesn't need to be a debate about feelings. NALP / google searches for "NALP employment data + X law school" will bring up hard self-reported data about number of folks who got jobs via OCI. There is less danger in "freaking out" before OCI than there is in being complacent or becoming despondent after striking out because you think you were the only one who struck out and OCI was your only chance.

And yes, the data isn't fool proof, but it's better a better data point than you'll find anywhere else.

The data is a ceiling on OCI success, since every T14 has people who strike out every year, most of whom find a job they want through other means.

EIW success rate at NYU was ~92% for Class of 2022 (so the covid Jan. recruits). The summer hiring was even better for the following class (at least for transactional folks). EIW rates also don't account for the small but still significant number of people who skipped OCI because they had accepted pre-OCI or returning 1L offers already.

Do you also invest in AOL, Pets.com and Netscape based on analyst reports from 1999, and flip houses based on your mom's neighbor's incredible success story from 2006?

[UndyingArtichoke]

MVPB here. If I were in your shoes I'd focus on NYC plus markets where you have strong ties (eg where you're from). For NYC, SRZ, Willkie, Fried Frank, Kramer Levin, W&C, Cadwalader, Shearman etc should be top of your list, with secondary offices of non-NYC firms being backups (Cooley, MoFo, Clifford Chance, Mayer Brown, Dechert, Morgan Lewis, Covington, Hogan, A&P, Akin, K&S etc). Go for a few reach firms with excellent corporate practices too (Weil and Milbank in particular comes to mind).

Second this for the NYC markets. Milbank is a T14 whore but I haven't heard of them taking below median students outside of T6. Weil takes below median from my lower T14. Baker McKenzie, Chapman and Cutler, K&L Gates. Few more that come to mind.

Milbank takes way below median from my T(14-6)