Most “chill” biglaw locations? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Any insights on LA?

LA biglaw partner. It varies hugely by firm but there are at least a few super intense sweatshops. Downtown firms are generally a bit more relaxed culturally (in terms of face time, dress code, etc.) than the Century City firms, though not necessarily more relaxed in terms of hours expectations. There are a ton of fringe biglaw/high-end midlaw firms where you can bill 1900 hours year in and year out for 70-90% of biglaw compensation, to the extent that appeals to you.

[crazywafflez]

I'm in the boonies, hardly what could be called a secondary market, but our biglaw equivalents are chill.

From my xp: NOLA, Memphis, Bham, Jackson and LR are all very chill. (read, Baker, Butler, Adams and Reese and bigger regional firms). - BL here requires 1900 but I know a number of folks who are sitting at like 1750 range and won't get the boot.

On the bigger cities I've heard/ done some work with: Charlotte, Austin, San Antonio, heard Orlando isn't terrible considering its size (I have no direct xp though).

Cities I've heard bad things about/seen: Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, PHX, Jacksonville (I was surprised by this one and only worked with one guy out of an office here), Miami, Nashville nowadays.

Idk much outside the South/Southwest. Heard STL is tough and KC is more relaxed.

[Anonymous User]

Any insights on LA?

LA biglaw partner. It varies hugely by firm but there are at least a few super intense sweatshops. Downtown firms are generally a bit more relaxed culturally (in terms of face time, dress code, etc.) than the Century City firms, though not necessarily more relaxed in terms of hours expectations. There are a ton of fringe biglaw/high-end midlaw firms where you can bill 1900 hours year in and year out for 70-90% of biglaw compensation, to the extent that appeals to you.

Thanks. I am guessing K&E is one such super intense sweatshop? Any idea what the acceptable billables are for K&E corp in LA/CC? Starting this fall as a first year.

[Anonymous User]

Any insights on LA?

LA biglaw partner. It varies hugely by firm but there are at least a few super intense sweatshops. Downtown firms are generally a bit more relaxed culturally (in terms of face time, dress code, etc.) than the Century City firms, though not necessarily more relaxed in terms of hours expectations. There are a ton of fringe biglaw/high-end midlaw firms where you can bill 1900 hours year in and year out for 70-90% of biglaw compensation, to the extent that appeals to you.

Interesting! Why do you think that is? And do you think it holds true for firms with offices in both CC and downtown (the downtown office is more relaxed)?

[Anonymous User]

Also go to one of those schools and have had discussions about this with the school advisors. Generalizing a ton, but DC is usually described as the worst work/life balance, followed closely by NYC. West Coast is described as being more "chill" but my understanding is that's misleading. Those firms might not require as much face time, but many of the top firms still require a similar amount of hours...though I haven't heard of any firms in CA that implicitly expect 2200 hours or more, whereas that sounds more normal in some NYC shops. All this to say it's not enough to filer by location, you also need to look into the specific firms and learn which are known to be the sweatshops in the area (and associates are, in my experience, happy to share)

I've always thought NYC was considered more intense than DC by quite a bit - at least outside of the top boutiques in DC. Is that incorrect?

Again, generalizing a ton, but my understanding and the general info we receive (my school sends quite a few students to DC) is that DC and NYC are at least equal in terms of intensity, and if anything DC is slightly more intense. This doesn't include the DC boutiques known to be sweatshops

Have never heard this. Anyone who's worked in both or have some firsthand info care to chime in?

I work in DC and have worked with people in NYC. I can say NYC is categorically more intense than DC. To quantify an intangible I’d guess about 15-20% more intense.

[Anonymous User]

I can speak to Houston. Kirkland, Latham, and STB are all sweatshops and I’m not sure their associates work any less than their NYC counterparts, although the people may be nicer. V&E tries to sell themselves as less of a sweatshop but their MACM group is absolutely brutal - I have friends who have gotten “urgent” weekend assignments completely out of the blue - like, for a deal they weren’t staffed on and for a senior they’ve never worked with before and screamed at if they took an hour to respond because they were doing something.

I worked at one of the more “Texas” biglaw firms - think Baker Botts, Bracewell, HAK, Jackson Walker - and the hours were much better than what friends in NYC experienced and the culture was much better as well. The work was a little more predictable (because seniors were better managers) and the people were nice and apologetic if you had to work late or on a weekend (and went out of their way to try to avoid it when possible). Weekend work wasn’t really the expectation outside of signings/closings. The downside is these firms are much more old school and have a very “Texas good ol boys” vibe, which is a major reason I left.

I’ve heard good things about Akin Gump and King and Spalding in Houston but don’t have personal experience (or close friends with personal experience). I have heard bad things about the culture at Sidley but can’t speak to the hours.

[Anonymous User]

The answer is the west coast, Bay Area in particular. Part of that is driven by the strength of the in-house market there. I watch attorneys on west coast teams just leave if the work gets too much; they don't care because they can walk into a FAANG or FAANG-adjacent job in a week. This makes cross-country deals fun when you have a NY work culture bumping up against a Palo Alto work culture *plus* the time difference ....

for those reading, Kirkland / Latham / Quinn are the Bay Area firms that have been consistently described to me as sweatshops.

[Anonymous User]

Nashville nowadays

Curious how the Nashville firms stack up re: QOL. Is it inverse to the quality of work (i.e. Bradley/Baker > Bass/Waller) or is it more complicated?

[Anonymous User]

London will be a better experience and less of a career hit (plus a better financial decision with COLA) than many of the cities here

[Anonymous User]

I can speak to Houston. Kirkland, Latham, and STB are all sweatshops and I’m not sure their associates work any less than their NYC counterparts, although the people may be nicer. V&E tries to sell themselves as less of a sweatshop but their MACM group is absolutely brutal - I have friends who have gotten “urgent” weekend assignments completely out of the blue - like, for a deal they weren’t staffed on and for a senior they’ve never worked with before and screamed at if they took an hour to respond because they were doing something.

I worked at one of the more “Texas” biglaw firms - think Baker Botts, Bracewell, HAK, Jackson Walker - and the hours were much better than what friends in NYC experienced and the culture was much better as well. The work was a little more predictable (because seniors were better managers) and the people were nice and apologetic if you had to work late or on a weekend (and went out of their way to try to avoid it when possible). Weekend work wasn’t really the expectation outside of signings/closings. The downside is these firms are much more old school and have a very “Texas good ol boys” vibe, which is a major reason I left.

I’ve heard good things about Akin Gump and King and Spalding in Houston but don’t have personal experience (or close friends with personal experience). I have heard bad things about the culture at Sidley but can’t speak to the hours.

Concur re: LW, KE, STB Houston. V&E may be as bad or worse. Don't know about the other "Texas" firms but none seem to be doing "well" in the market.

[Anonymous User]

London will be a better experience and less of a career hit (plus a better financial decision with COLA) than many of the cities here

The taxes are super high. I had to decide between Houston and London. After tax income was almost the same with 80k cola.

[Anonymous User]

I can speak to Houston. Kirkland, Latham, and STB are all sweatshops and I’m not sure their associates work any less than their NYC counterparts, although the people may be nicer. V&E tries to sell themselves as less of a sweatshop but their MACM group is absolutely brutal - I have friends who have gotten “urgent” weekend assignments completely out of the blue - like, for a deal they weren’t staffed on and for a senior they’ve never worked with before and screamed at if they took an hour to respond because they were doing something.

I worked at one of the more “Texas” biglaw firms - think Baker Botts, Bracewell, HAK, Jackson Walker - and the hours were much better than what friends in NYC experienced and the culture was much better as well. The work was a little more predictable (because seniors were better managers) and the people were nice and apologetic if you had to work late or on a weekend (and went out of their way to try to avoid it when possible). Weekend work wasn’t really the expectation outside of signings/closings. The downside is these firms are much more old school and have a very “Texas good ol boys” vibe, which is a major reason I left.

I’ve heard good things about Akin Gump and King and Spalding in Houston but don’t have personal experience (or close friends with personal experience). I have heard bad things about the culture at Sidley but can’t speak to the hours.

Concur re: LW, KE, STB Houston. V&E may be as bad or worse. Don't know about the other "Texas" firms but none seem to be doing "well" in the market.

I’m at KE Houston (and have friends at basically every other major firm here) and I agree as well. I still think we work less than KE NYC though, and I’m assuming it’s the same for LW/STB Houston vs. LW/STB NYC.

KE/LW/STB/VE are all more intense than the “Texas” firms but are nothing special compared an average NYC firm, when I compare notes with classmates and colleagues in NYC.

Also, we have virtually no face time expectations in Houston and the overall vibe is pretty chill compared to what I’ve seen in the NYC and SF offices, for example. Probably not as chill as BB or Akin or whatever, but there is a real sense of anxious energy and workaholism that I get from my counterparts in coastal offices that is definitely lacking here. Also pre-Covid the New Yorkers often said they were expected to be in the office frequently whereas here in Houston nobody gave a shit even pre-Covid as long as the work got done.

[crazywafflez]

Nashville nowadays

Curious how the Nashville firms stack up re: QOL. Is it inverse to the quality of work (i.e. Bradley/Baker > Bass/Waller) or is it more complicated?

Waller is chiller, heard Bass is intense, Baker is middle of the road. Obviously it depends on your team. Idk enough about Bradley.

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone speak to Florida cities?

[The Lsat Airbender]

Nashville nowadays

Curious how the Nashville firms stack up re: QOL. Is it inverse to the quality of work (i.e. Bradley/Baker > Bass/Waller) or is it more complicated?

Nashville's paradigmatic problem is that the lawyers want to make Atlanta money and the clients want to pay Knoxville rates. Most of its issues flow from there (higher hours for such a small market, heavy focus on a handful of blue-chip clients). It's still obviously going to be chiller than NYC in the main but it's no longer a chill place where you can work 9-5 and live like a king on your $110k salary.

[Anonymous User]

Nashville nowadays

Curious how the Nashville firms stack up re: QOL. Is it inverse to the quality of work (i.e. Bradley/Baker > Bass/Waller) or is it more complicated?

I think Bass is in a bit of a class of its own in Nashville because it very much operates (or tries to operate) like a New York law firm (based on its niche corporate practice) and has tremendous turnover compared to the other firms. A lot of the turnover is because associates are working 2200+ and want to get paid market money and bonuses (and don't care much about partnership), so Bass loses a fair amount of people to larger markets (which is probably unexpected to people who aren't familiar with BBS).

Bradley, Baker, and Waller are all basically 2000 hours with reasonable chance at partnership, and I don't think there is any measurable difference in the "quality of work". As a whole, as someone above pointed out, Nashville does not have the level of expectations or pay of Atlanta (and to a lesser degree, Charlotte), but it is definitely in a different class than Memphis, Birmingham, New Orleans, etc.

[crazywafflez]

Nashville nowadays

Curious how the Nashville firms stack up re: QOL. Is it inverse to the quality of work (i.e. Bradley/Baker > Bass/Waller) or is it more complicated?

I think Bass is in a bit of a class of its own in Nashville because it very much operates (or tries to operate) like a New York law firm (based on its niche corporate practice) and has tremendous turnover compared to the other firms. A lot of the turnover is because associates are working 2200+ and want to get paid market money and bonuses (and don't care much about partnership), so Bass loses a fair amount of people to larger markets (which is probably unexpected to people who aren't familiar with BBS).

Bradley, Baker, and Waller are all basically 2000 hours with reasonable chance at partnership, and I don't think there is any measurable difference in the "quality of work". As a whole, as someone above pointed out, Nashville does not have the level of expectations or pay of Atlanta (and to a lesser degree, Charlotte), but it is definitely in a different class than Memphis, Birmingham, New Orleans, etc.

TCR, from my understanding.

[Anonymous User]

Also go to one of those schools and have had discussions about this with the school advisors. Generalizing a ton, but DC is usually described as the worst work/life balance, followed closely by NYC. West Coast is described as being more "chill" but my understanding is that's misleading. Those firms might not require as much face time, but many of the top firms still require a similar amount of hours...though I haven't heard of any firms in CA that implicitly expect 2200 hours or more, whereas that sounds more normal in some NYC shops. All this to say it's not enough to filer by location, you also need to look into the specific firms and learn which are known to be the sweatshops in the area (and associates are, in my experience, happy to share)

I've always thought NYC was considered more intense than DC by quite a bit - at least outside of the top boutiques in DC. Is that incorrect?

Again, generalizing a ton, but my understanding and the general info we receive (my school sends quite a few students to DC) is that DC and NYC are at least equal in terms of intensity, and if anything DC is slightly more intense. This doesn't include the DC boutiques known to be sweatshops

Have never heard this. Anyone who's worked in both or have some firsthand info care to chime in?

Have worked in both. DC hours on average are considerably lower than NY, and people noticeably respect evenings/weekends more.

[lawhawk1836]

I can speak to Houston. Kirkland, Latham, and STB are all sweatshops and I’m not sure their associates work any less than their NYC counterparts, although the people may be nicer. V&E tries to sell themselves as less of a sweatshop but their MACM group is absolutely brutal - I have friends who have gotten “urgent” weekend assignments completely out of the blue - like, for a deal they weren’t staffed on and for a senior they’ve never worked with before and screamed at if they took an hour to respond because they were doing something.

I worked at one of the more “Texas” biglaw firms - think Baker Botts, Bracewell, HAK, Jackson Walker - and the hours were much better than what friends in NYC experienced and the culture was much better as well. The work was a little more predictable (because seniors were better managers) and the people were nice and apologetic if you had to work late or on a weekend (and went out of their way to try to avoid it when possible). Weekend work wasn’t really the expectation outside of signings/closings. The downside is these firms are much more old school and have a very “Texas good ol boys” vibe, which is a major reason I left.

I’ve heard good things about Akin Gump and King and Spalding in Houston but don’t have personal experience (or close friends with personal experience). I have heard bad things about the culture at Sidley but can’t speak to the hours.

V&E mid-level here. People don't scream here. If they ever did, they end up getting pushed out to national shops.

[Anonymous User]

Also go to one of those schools and have had discussions about this with the school advisors. Generalizing a ton, but DC is usually described as the worst work/life balance, followed closely by NYC. West Coast is described as being more "chill" but my understanding is that's misleading. Those firms might not require as much face time, but many of the top firms still require a similar amount of hours...though I haven't heard of any firms in CA that implicitly expect 2200 hours or more, whereas that sounds more normal in some NYC shops. All this to say it's not enough to filer by location, you also need to look into the specific firms and learn which are known to be the sweatshops in the area (and associates are, in my experience, happy to share)

I've always thought NYC was considered more intense than DC by quite a bit - at least outside of the top boutiques in DC. Is that incorrect?

Again, generalizing a ton, but my understanding and the general info we receive (my school sends quite a few students to DC) is that DC and NYC are at least equal in terms of intensity, and if anything DC is slightly more intense. This doesn't include the DC boutiques known to be sweatshops

Have never heard this. Anyone who's worked in both or have some firsthand info care to chime in?

Have worked in both. DC hours on average are considerably lower than NY, and people noticeably respect evenings/weekends more.

This goes to the whole "DC offices / firms are in a time warp" meme where they still think it's 1985 and they're in a genteel profession not a profit-maximizing kill-what-you-eat Hobbesian law firm model. And I don't fault them for it; I guess keep fighting that good fight as long as you can; maybe DC will forever exist in a bubble because of its unique connection with the federal government and all that attends to it.

[Anonymous User]

No such thing as YSCH unless Chicago remains in the top 3 for 10 more years. Clearly a school a cut below in terms of student or faculty quality.

[Anonymous User]

No such thing as YSCH unless Chicago remains in the top 3 for 10 more years. Clearly a school a cut below in terms of student or faculty quality.

Brazenly implying degree mill H is on the same level as Y/S.

[Anonymous User]

No such thing as YSCH unless Chicago remains in the top 3 for 10 more years. Clearly a school a cut below in terms of student or faculty quality.

Boomer take—you’re clearly not up to speed with legal academia. Chicago’s faculty is #2 in the country in the citation rankings, and it’s also #1 by a mile in the “faculty under 60” variant of the rankings, so it will likely take over #1 from YLS (which has a very old faculty) at some point.

Also, SLS and Chicago have virtually identical classes by LSAT and GPA.

[Anonymous User]

I can speak to Houston. Kirkland, Latham, and STB are all sweatshops and I’m not sure their associates work any less than their NYC counterparts, although the people may be nicer. V&E tries to sell themselves as less of a sweatshop but their MACM group is absolutely brutal - I have friends who have gotten “urgent” weekend assignments completely out of the blue - like, for a deal they weren’t staffed on and for a senior they’ve never worked with before and screamed at if they took an hour to respond because they were doing something.

I worked at one of the more “Texas” biglaw firms - think Baker Botts, Bracewell, HAK, Jackson Walker - and the hours were much better than what friends in NYC experienced and the culture was much better as well. The work was a little more predictable (because seniors were better managers) and the people were nice and apologetic if you had to work late or on a weekend (and went out of their way to try to avoid it when possible). Weekend work wasn’t really the expectation outside of signings/closings. The downside is these firms are much more old school and have a very “Texas good ol boys” vibe, which is a major reason I left.

I’ve heard good things about Akin Gump and King and Spalding in Houston but don’t have personal experience (or close friends with personal experience). I have heard bad things about the culture at Sidley but can’t speak to the hours.

VE anecdote is scary. Yuck

[Anonymous User]

No such thing as YSCH unless Chicago remains in the top 3 for 10 more years. Clearly a school a cut below in terms of student or faculty quality.

Boomer take—you’re clearly not up to speed with legal academia. Chicago’s faculty is #2 in the country in the citation rankings, and it’s also #1 by a mile in the “faculty under 60” variant of the rankings, so it will likely take over #1 from YLS (which has a very old faculty) at some point.

Also, SLS and Chicago have virtually identical classes by LSAT and GPA.

Take this to the main room please. Nobody cares about Chicago.