Reasons for picking Jones Day - NY? Forum

[Anonymous User]

The daughter of the Tiger Mom who is an HLS 3L right now is going to Jones Day NY I think. I'm guessing that this does have something to do with a future conservative political career.

Why would you say this? I've not heard the Tiger Mom as being politically conservative.

Isn't she very connected to Kavanaugh?

[Anonymous User]

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[Access]

The daughter of the Tiger Mom who is an HLS 3L right now is going to Jones Day NY I think. I'm guessing that this does have something to do with a future conservative political career.

Nah it's bc of the 400k SCOTUS clerk bonus.

This is daughter #2. The non-SCOTUS daughter.

We don't know that yet do we? She hasn't graduated yet. And even if she doesn't clerk, seems likely that someone that connected would benefit from blackbox.

What's random is that daughter #1 is apparently now a JAG of all things? That seems designed for a political career. IIRC they are "liberal but the left is crazy now" types, plenty of room to pivot to a Republican campaign without adjusting much. Tiger Mom's protégée is running for senate now in Ohio.

[Anonymous User]

Not to hijack this thread, but does the overall consensus around here sound like - notwithstanding potential pay issues - Jones Day NY is a good and relatively "happy" place to work for? I often have a hard time getting opinions on this because so much of Jones Day discussion gets mired in the pay issue or in the potential politics of the firm. I'm genuinely curious about just QOL/employee satisfaction.

There's a lot to like. Gorgeous office; great location; collegial culture; reasonable (enough) work-life balance. You'll very likely make less money as an associate, but if you do reliable work you'll eventually make partner. It's a bad place to make a quick buck, but not a bad place to make a career.

[Anonymous User]

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[cornerstone]

We don't know that yet do we? She hasn't graduated yet. And even if she doesn't clerk, seems likely that someone that connected would benefit from blackbox.

What's random is that daughter #1 is apparently now a JAG of all things? That seems designed for a political career. IIRC they are "liberal but the left is crazy now" types, plenty of room to pivot to a Republican campaign without adjusting much. Tiger Mom's protégée is running for senate now in Ohio.

Speculating that an actual identifiable person is going to get paid extra by a well known law firm due solely to family connections instead of merit without any supporting evidence or personal knowledge sounds like a pretty shameful anon abuse to me. Mods?

[Anonymous User]

The daughter of the Tiger Mom who is an HLS 3L right now is going to Jones Day NY I think. I'm guessing that this does have something to do with a future conservative political career.

Maybe she wants to live in New York and do appellate work and jones day is gr at for appellate. Fuck, maybe she just likes Brookfield place

[Anonymous User]

Would it make more sense to start out at a NY V10 for a few years and then try to make partner at Jones Day-NY by lateraling? Or would it make more sense to start out at Jones Day-NY. I am interested in the alleged good QOL

[Anonymous User]

Would it make more sense to start out at a NY V10 for a few years and then try to make partner at Jones Day-NY by lateraling? Or would it make more sense to start out at Jones Day-NY. I am interested in the alleged good QOL

QOL is not good for people trying to make partner. People talk about JD QOL because you can generally get away with billing ~1700 and get paid a black box comp that usually comes out to something like market base + 50% bonus. But, those people aren’t making partner.

[Anonymous User]

Would it make more sense to start out at a NY V10 for a few years and then try to make partner at Jones Day-NY by lateraling? Or would it make more sense to start out at Jones Day-NY. I am interested in the alleged good QOL

I don't think working at a V10 would put you ahead of the rest of the JD-NYC class, if that's what you're asking. Perhaps it would expand your network, but don't do it because you think working on "V10 deals/cases" will make you some kind of a "superstar" as soon as you arrive at JD.

If you're asking whether a V10 is a better place to start, then maybe, purely because exit opportunities may be a bit better (though that's probably highly practice and location dependent). My $0.02 is that if you know where you want to end up (e.g., JD partnership), just start as close to that as possible (JD associate). If you think there's a chance you want something different, NYC V10 typically leaves open more doors, with some exceptions of course.

[2013]

Would it make more sense to start out at a NY V10 for a few years and then try to make partner at Jones Day-NY by lateraling? Or would it make more sense to start out at Jones Day-NY. I am interested in the alleged good QOL

QOL is not good for people trying to make partner. People talk about JD QOL because you can generally get away with billing ~1700 and get paid a black box comp that usually comes out to something like market base + 50% bonus. But, those people aren’t making partner.

Is this true? I’ve heard people at JD with lower hours get no raise.

[Anonymous User]

I was in the NY office for a number of years. My experience was that the hours were not bad (2000-2200), people were generally nice but mostly conservative (Fed Soc etc) and I left because the work was not what I wanted. The office is amazing and my pay at the end was below market but not by a lot. Partnership prospects are better than most big firms so JD is a good option if you want to be a partner, fine with a more conservative culture and they are doing the kind of work you want to do.

[Anonymous User]

We don't know that yet do we? She hasn't graduated yet. And even if she doesn't clerk, seems likely that someone that connected would benefit from blackbox.

What's random is that daughter #1 is apparently now a JAG of all things? That seems designed for a political career. IIRC they are "liberal but the left is crazy now" types, plenty of room to pivot to a Republican campaign without adjusting much. Tiger Mom's protégée is running for senate now in Ohio.

Speculating that an actual identifiable person is going to get paid extra by a well known law firm due solely to family connections instead of merit without any supporting evidence or personal knowledge sounds like a pretty shameful anon abuse to me. Mods?

I mean, doesn't that basically just describe how the world works? The getting paid more if you have connections, etc. I have no idea if it's true in this or any particular case, but the premise seems completely plausible and routine.

[Anonymous User]

We don't know that yet do we? She hasn't graduated yet. And even if she doesn't clerk, seems likely that someone that connected would benefit from blackbox.

What's random is that daughter #1 is apparently now a JAG of all things? That seems designed for a political career. IIRC they are "liberal but the left is crazy now" types, plenty of room to pivot to a Republican campaign without adjusting much. Tiger Mom's protégée is running for senate now in Ohio.

Speculating that an actual identifiable person is going to get paid extra by a well known law firm due solely to family connections instead of merit without any supporting evidence or personal knowledge sounds like a pretty shameful anon abuse to me. Mods?

I mean, doesn't that basically just describe how the world works? The getting paid more if you have connections, etc. I have no idea if it's true in this or any particular case, but the premise seems completely plausible and routine.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but regardless of whether you think this is how the world works, I think it's pretty cowardly to anonymously make that sort of an accusation about a particular person and firm. Not challenging the premise because I don't know either way how JD makes their comp decisions. Just commenting on the nature of the post.

[Anonymous User]

This is not specific to NYC, but I do have a few thoughts based from what I've heard from some DC JD associates.

First, though it would shock the conscience of some here, there are some who are not pure profit maximizers. In that sense, they may be willing forgo some pay for something else - be it culture (Fed Soc or otherwise), a particular practice group, or anything else listed below. I've heard at least one JD associate say we're all overcompensated and fixating on a few thousand dollars or massive bonuses in the height of the pandemic is petty, undeserved, and unbecoming. Maybe it's a justification for receiving less comp.

Second, as corollary, I think either JD didn't underpay as much in the past, or their underpayments for more senior associates have become more public of late. A few people I know there weren't particularly upset with their comp until the more recent salary/bonus wars. They also had serious midlevel retention issues (many felt duped by black box) before the pandemic made that a thing everywhere, likely due to unpublished compression.

Third, apart from a few relatively selective NYC firms, most other firms have hard hours requirements somewhere between 1900-2000. For someone who can't land one of those firms, JD poses an alternative where you could theoretically scoot by with lower hours for years and still make some good money (even if slightly less than you would make elsewhere).

Fourth, JD does beat market for some hardworking associates. My guess is that more people think ex ante that they'll fall into this category, especially given my next point.

Fifth, JD often times hires a good deal of scrappy non-T14 attorneys at the top of their class. I think JD recruits them harder than the other NYC firms, which are more focused on T14 and think the non-T14 students should be grateful for their offer.

Sixth, for mathematically illiterate law students, the idea of getting paid a higher salary without a bonus sounds attractive, especially if they don't realize they end up undercompensated in the end.

Seventh, for law students who know nothing of the world, the idea of NLG (no practice group commitment for 1 year) probably sounds pretty attractive. We can quibble about whether it's a good thing or not (just like CSM's system), but it's bound to catch the eye of at least a few law students.

Eight, this may be less true now as the Lathams and K&E's of the world continue to grow, but JD's massive footprint combined with the "one firm" policy is probably another selling point. They have work in literally every practice area imaginable in almost any city in the world. Compensation aside, I'd prefer JD to other shops like DLA, NRF, K&L, GT, etc. Maybe even MLB if I'm being honest. J&D is far better ranked than these firms, which is probably another selling point (again, quibble whether that matters).

Ninth, partnership prospects, etc. as others have noted.

Through NLG, do Jones Day associates have meaningful choice in which practice group they'd like? I heard some firms pretend they have a rotational option for first years, but a lot of people get slotted into corporate groups even if the associate wants litigation

Bumping this question from earlier wrt NLG & practice group placement - if anyone could elaborate, please do!

[Anonymous User]

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but regardless of whether you think this is how the world works, I think it's pretty cowardly to anonymously make that sort of an accusation about a particular person and firm. Not challenging the premise because I don't know either way how JD makes their comp decisions. Just commenting on the nature of the post.

He says as he anonymously posts

[Anonymous User]

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but regardless of whether you think this is how the world works, I think it's pretty cowardly to anonymously make that sort of an accusation about a particular person and firm. Not challenging the premise because I don't know either way how JD makes their comp decisions. Just commenting on the nature of the post.

He says as he anonymously posts

She/he says anonymously about the anon post. But whatever feel good about yourself for making a non-responsive point that you think /threads.

Anyway, the above anon isn't making any accusations about particular people. Argue if you want, but that's a different thing.

[Anonymous User]

Would it make more sense to start out at a NY V10 for a few years and then try to make partner at Jones Day-NY by lateraling? Or would it make more sense to start out at Jones Day-NY. I am interested in the alleged good QOL

QOL is not good for people trying to make partner. People talk about JD QOL because you can generally get away with billing ~1700 and get paid a black box comp that usually comes out to something like market base + 50% bonus. But, those people aren’t making partner.

Is this true? I’ve heard people at JD with lower hours get no raise.

As long as the work is satisfactory, people with low hours usually get raises, but they won't keep up with market. 50% bonus sounds about right.

It's true that you can't make partner billing 1700 in most practice groups. You can, however, make partner while billing low 2000s. That would be difficult at most V20s (the tradeoff being a lower financial payoff).

[Anonymous User]

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but regardless of whether you think this is how the world works, I think it's pretty cowardly to anonymously make that sort of an accusation about a particular person and firm. Not challenging the premise because I don't know either way how JD makes their comp decisions. Just commenting on the nature of the post.

He says as he anonymously posts

She/he says anonymously about the anon post. But whatever feel good about yourself for making a non-responsive point that you think /threads.

Anyway, the above anon isn't making any accusations about particular people. Argue if you want, but that's a different thing.

she's not gonna date u bruv, no need to defend someone anonymously who is never gonna know you

also lol @ the idea of it being "cowardly" to make an AcCuSaTiOn about a firm. jones day summers are wild

[Anonymous User]

I'm the anon who made The Comment, and I beg you all to touch grass and chill out. It's not the end of the world if I get outed but sure if you wanna call me a coward, who cares? Of course I'm a coward. We all are. What's the shame in that? I do find it funny that ppl bravely called me a coward from behind anon, like at least be consistent. (TBF original fainting couch used a username.)

[Anonymous User]

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but regardless of whether you think this is how the world works, I think it's pretty cowardly to anonymously make that sort of an accusation about a particular person and firm. Not challenging the premise because I don't know either way how JD makes their comp decisions. Just commenting on the nature of the post.

He says as he anonymously posts

She/he says anonymously about the anon post. But whatever feel good about yourself for making a non-responsive point that you think /threads.

Anyway, the above anon isn't making any accusations about particular people. Argue if you want, but that's a different thing.

she's not gonna date u bruv, no need to defend someone anonymously who is never gonna know you

also lol @ the idea of it being "cowardly" to make an AcCuSaTiOn about a firm. jones day summers are wild

Also lol @ your need to make ad hominin attacks and employ weird capitalizations and misspellings to distract from the fact that the accusation wasn't just about a particular firm. But whatever helps you sleep alone at night bro (two an play at the hypocrisy game).

[cornerstone]

I'm the anon who made The Comment, and I beg you all to touch grass and chill out. It's not the end of the world if I get outed but sure if you wanna call me a coward, who cares? Of course I'm a coward. We all are. What's the shame in that? I do find it funny that ppl bravely called me a coward from behind anon, like at least be consistent. (TBF original fainting couch used a username.)

I appreciate your candid response. People always get upset whenever anon abuse is brought up (it inevitably falls into a battle of who was a hypocrite first), so no surprises here.

I do stand by my point, though. I use anon all the time and probably in ways that violate TLS's policies. But that's when I'm speaking generally about my experiences, opinion, etc. Mostly harmless stuff that, though it might offend some, isn't directed at any particular person and can't do much harm to anybody's reputation. Nobody cares what Cornerstone thinks about the latest salary news. But I think if you're going to drag in an actual person (who isn't even on this thread, mind you) and accuse them of getting some sweet kickbacks without any evidence, then you should be open about it. FWIW I think that's different from speaking anonymously about bad personal experiences with partners, firms, etc.

Anyway, up to you (or the mods) whether saying those things anonymously truly sits right with you.

[Anonymous User]

I'm the anon who made The Comment, and I beg you all to touch grass and chill out. It's not the end of the world if I get outed but sure if you wanna call me a coward, who cares? Of course I'm a coward. We all are. What's the shame in that? I do find it funny that ppl bravely called me a coward from behind anon, like at least be consistent. (TBF original fainting couch used a username.)

I appreciate your candid response. People always get upset whenever anon abuse is brought up (it inevitably falls into a battle of who was a hypocrite first), so no surprises here.

I do stand by my point, though. I use anon all the time and probably in ways that violate TLS's policies. But that's when I'm speaking generally about my experiences, opinion, etc. Mostly harmless stuff that, though it might offend some, isn't directed at any particular person and can't do much harm to anybody's reputation. Nobody cares what Cornerstone thinks about the latest salary news. But I think if you're going to drag in an actual person (who isn't even on this thread, mind you) and accuse them of getting some sweet kickbacks without any evidence, then you should be open about it. FWIW I think that's different from speaking anonymously about bad personal experiences with partners, firms, etc.

Anyway, up to you (or the mods) whether saying those things anonymously truly sits right with you.

Appreciate your good faith response (well, except for the whole calling for me to be outed, that was a bit unfriendly).

I never said anything about kickbacks. How do you imagine that would even work? "hi we will pay you more and in exchange...." what exactly? She will help them get clients? That's not a kickback that's just eat what you kill. Usually associates can't tap into that bc of lockstep, but it makes sense that JD would reward that earlier. There's nothing nefarious about it.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

I'm the anon who made The Comment, and I beg you all to touch grass and chill out. It's not the end of the world if I get outed but sure if you wanna call me a coward, who cares? Of course I'm a coward. We all are. What's the shame in that? I do find it funny that ppl bravely called me a coward from behind anon, like at least be consistent. (TBF original fainting couch used a username.)

I appreciate your candid response. People always get upset whenever anon abuse is brought up (it inevitably falls into a battle of who was a hypocrite first), so no surprises here.

I do stand by my point, though. I use anon all the time and probably in ways that violate TLS's policies. But that's when I'm speaking generally about my experiences, opinion, etc. Mostly harmless stuff that, though it might offend some, isn't directed at any particular person and can't do much harm to anybody's reputation. Nobody cares what Cornerstone thinks about the latest salary news. But I think if you're going to drag in an actual person (who isn't even on this thread, mind you) and accuse them of getting some sweet kickbacks without any evidence, then you should be open about it. FWIW I think that's different from speaking anonymously about bad personal experiences with partners, firms, etc.

Anyway, up to you (or the mods) whether saying those things anonymously truly sits right with you.

Appreciate your good faith response (well, except for the whole calling for me to be outed, that was a bit unfriendly).

I never said anything about kickbacks. How do you imagine that would even work? "hi we will pay you more and in exchange...." what exactly? She will help them get clients? That's not a kickback that's just eat what you kill. Usually associates can't tap into that bc of lockstep, but it makes sense that JD would reward that earlier. There's nothing nefarious about it.

Personally I didn't follow the weird animosity toward Amy Chua's daughter. What exactly did she do that's worthy of discussion here? Have liberal parents who aren't fully orthodox liberals, who also had a couple of glasses of wine at a party with 21+ year old grad students once?

[Anonymous User]

I'm the anon who made The Comment, and I beg you all to touch grass and chill out. It's not the end of the world if I get outed but sure if you wanna call me a coward, who cares? Of course I'm a coward. We all are. What's the shame in that? I do find it funny that ppl bravely called me a coward from behind anon, like at least be consistent. (TBF original fainting couch used a username.)

I appreciate your candid response. People always get upset whenever anon abuse is brought up (it inevitably falls into a battle of who was a hypocrite first), so no surprises here.

I do stand by my point, though. I use anon all the time and probably in ways that violate TLS's policies. But that's when I'm speaking generally about my experiences, opinion, etc. Mostly harmless stuff that, though it might offend some, isn't directed at any particular person and can't do much harm to anybody's reputation. Nobody cares what Cornerstone thinks about the latest salary news. But I think if you're going to drag in an actual person (who isn't even on this thread, mind you) and accuse them of getting some sweet kickbacks without any evidence, then you should be open about it. FWIW I think that's different from speaking anonymously about bad personal experiences with partners, firms, etc.

Anyway, up to you (or the mods) whether saying those things anonymously truly sits right with you.

Appreciate your good faith response (well, except for the whole calling for me to be outed, that was a bit unfriendly).

I never said anything about kickbacks. How do you imagine that would even work? "hi we will pay you more and in exchange...." what exactly? She will help them get clients? That's not a kickback that's just eat what you kill. Usually associates can't tap into that bc of lockstep, but it makes sense that JD would reward that earlier. There's nothing nefarious about it.

Personally I didn't follow the weird animosity toward Amy Chua's daughter. What exactly did she do that's worthy of discussion here? Have liberal parents who aren't fully orthodox liberals, who also had a couple of glasses of wine at a party with 21+ year old grad students once?

Why is this a response to me lol. Have nothing against her (parents are creeps tho). Someone brought her up because it was relevant to the thread.