Getting Juniors to be responsive Forum

[Anonymous User]

Another request for seniors: if you don't know, pls say "I don't know", or "ask [partner]". Don't leave me on read.

[Anonymous User]

I keep seeing posts here, on fishbowl, etc., regarding partners or seniors or midlevels "yelling" at juniors. How often does this actually constitute literal yelling? I've been an associate since last fall and have not seen a single person get yelled at. I and others have certainly been criticized, often rightfully so (although often mistakes are the result of poor training), but have never seen or heard of anyone yelling. I've even had inexcusable fuck-ups, e.g., inadvertently sleeping in after working late. Still no yelling.

[Anonymous User]

I keep seeing posts here, on fishbowl, etc., regarding partners or seniors or midlevels "yelling" at juniors. How often does this actually constitute literal yelling? I've been an associate since last fall and have not seen a single person get yelled at. I and others have certainly been criticized, often rightfully so (although often mistakes are the result of poor training), but have never seen or heard of anyone yelling. I've even had inexcusable fuck-ups, e.g., inadvertently sleeping in after working late. Still no yelling.

Same--I'm a fourth year and have been at two firms (lit)--I've never seen any yelling. The only yelling I've heard of was a senior partner yelling at a junior partner (one occasion).

[jotarokujo]

Hi I noticed xxxx. Please just keep me up to date so I don’t have to CC and escalate.

Until you make partner, answering emails isn’t optional.

yeah roping in partners/threatening too is what makes a toxic environment

[Joachim2017]

I keep seeing posts here, on fishbowl, etc., regarding partners or seniors or midlevels "yelling" at juniors. How often does this actually constitute literal yelling? I've been an associate since last fall and have not seen a single person get yelled at. I and others have certainly been criticized, often rightfully so (although often mistakes are the result of poor training), but have never seen or heard of anyone yelling. I've even had inexcusable fuck-ups, e.g., inadvertently sleeping in after working late. Still no yelling.

Same--I'm a fourth year and have been at two firms (lit)--I've never seen any yelling. The only yelling I've heard of was a senior partner yelling at a junior partner (one occasion).

At most firms, in my experience, what's more common now is a certain tone, rather than volume. It can go from annoyance to exasperation to a pretty nasty edge we could probably call disdain or disgust combined with anger and frustration. It's also more apt to happen to seniors who the partner thinks should know better and holds to higher standards. Juniors don't really know anything so yelling at them doesn't have the same layer of dashed expectations. So yeah, the "yelling" itself has become more refined.

[Anonymous User]

I keep seeing posts here, on fishbowl, etc., regarding partners or seniors or midlevels "yelling" at juniors. How often does this actually constitute literal yelling? I've been an associate since last fall and have not seen a single person get yelled at. I and others have certainly been criticized, often rightfully so (although often mistakes are the result of poor training), but have never seen or heard of anyone yelling. I've even had inexcusable fuck-ups, e.g., inadvertently sleeping in after working late. Still no yelling.

Same--I'm a fourth year and have been at two firms (lit)--I've never seen any yelling. The only yelling I've heard of was a senior partner yelling at a junior partner (one occasion).

At most firms, in my experience, what's more common now is a certain tone, rather than volume. It can go from annoyance to exasperation to a pretty nasty edge we could probably call disdain or disgust combined with anger and frustration. It's also more apt to happen to seniors who the partner thinks should know better and holds to higher standards. Juniors don't really know anything so yelling at them doesn't have the same layer of dashed expectations. So yeah, the "yelling" itself has become more refined.

Which I guess speaks to the point I was getting at -- so what? I'm by no means a boot-licking junior but if I mess up and annoy or anger someone more senior to me instead of them keeping silent and spreading gossip I would much rather them tell me that they're annoyed and angry and then I can apologize and try my best to make sure it doesn't happen again. Unless it's basically a public shaming exercise where you're thrown under the bus in front of colleagues, or literal screaming, I really don't see why someone wouldn't understand why a senior who is probably more overworked than you would not be smiling and patting you on the head when they tell you that you messed up your job. Like are you a baby?

[Anonymous User]

I keep seeing posts here, on fishbowl, etc., regarding partners or seniors or midlevels "yelling" at juniors. How often does this actually constitute literal yelling? I've been an associate since last fall and have not seen a single person get yelled at. I and others have certainly been criticized, often rightfully so (although often mistakes are the result of poor training), but have never seen or heard of anyone yelling. I've even had inexcusable fuck-ups, e.g., inadvertently sleeping in after working late. Still no yelling.

Same--I'm a fourth year and have been at two firms (lit)--I've never seen any yelling. The only yelling I've heard of was a senior partner yelling at a junior partner (one occasion).

At most firms, in my experience, what's more common now is a certain tone, rather than volume. It can go from annoyance to exasperation to a pretty nasty edge we could probably call disdain or disgust combined with anger and frustration. It's also more apt to happen to seniors who the partner thinks should know better and holds to higher standards. Juniors don't really know anything so yelling at them doesn't have the same layer of dashed expectations. So yeah, the "yelling" itself has become more refined.

Which I guess speaks to the point I was getting at -- so what? I'm by no means a boot-licking junior but if I mess up and annoy or anger someone more senior to me instead of them keeping silent and spreading gossip I would much rather them tell me that they're annoyed and angry and then I can apologize and try my best to make sure it doesn't happen again. Unless it's basically a public shaming exercise where you're thrown under the bus in front of colleagues, or literal screaming, I really don't see why someone wouldn't understand why a senior who is probably more overworked than you would not be smiling and patting you on the head when they tell you that you messed up your job. Like are you a baby?

As a junior who recently had issues with a mid-level - I was not yelled at, also I was very responsive to emails, but apparently was not meeting deadlines (that were not communicated to me...until the hour before it was due). In my case, the mid-level gave me very minimal instructions and said that was all I needed to know - ok, great because it seemed easy and I could handle this despite my large workload. I was told to start with doc X as a base, started with doc X, but when I turned in my draft (based on the minimal instructions) was told that I never should have started with doc X/had no common sense - so re-do it ASAP - ok, ok - fine. Now, at this point, I was given a fuller idea of how big of a project this was (basically was never told the whole big picture when I started) and I don't have time for it, but I can't say no because the mid-level will flip out and snitch to a partner (this happened to another junior who had a breakdown working for this mid-level and stopped working for them). I re-work the draft (multiple times) for said mid-level, and at no point did the mid-level make substantive changes or clean-ups (like typos)...they are calling me sloppy and lazy over not knowing their personal preference (btw, no one else has ever complained about my work). So, as my last Hail Mary, because I don't want to be spoken down to anymore via email (think 2-3 paragraph emails that are condescending), I looped in the partner I work for and just I was doing it so they knew it would be high priority (aka I don't want them thinking I'm pushing off their work for no reason). Sure I burned a bridge with the mid-level who has a bad rep for treating ppl like garbage, but I never expected the call I received from said mid-level. It went down like this: 1) was told I never should loop in a partner because they don't want to be bothered with this info and this mid-level was directly told to handle the task...ok, not my fault you didn't do it; 2) was told my career was basically over, ok cool; and 3) I should have been happy about not having a partner looped in because my work was so sloppy, ok - you never gave me clear instructions and even when I asked questions I received different answers each time.

TLDR; Juniors generally respond fast to people that don't treat them like garbage, and I haven't heard of someone getting yelled at, but definitely have heard of people (and based on my experience know of people) being spoken down to or dealing with passive aggressive attitudes.

[Anonymous User]

had inexcusable fuck-ups, e.g., inadvertently sleeping in after working late

Trying to understand the level of Stockholm syndrome that considers sleeping in after working late (which I assume means 2am) to be an inexcusable fuck up.

[Anonymous User]

I keep seeing posts here, on fishbowl, etc., regarding partners or seniors or midlevels "yelling" at juniors. How often does this actually constitute literal yelling? I've been an associate since last fall and have not seen a single person get yelled at. I and others have certainly been criticized, often rightfully so (although often mistakes are the result of poor training), but have never seen or heard of anyone yelling. I've even had inexcusable fuck-ups, e.g., inadvertently sleeping in after working late. Still no yelling.

Same--I'm a fourth year and have been at two firms (lit)--I've never seen any yelling. The only yelling I've heard of was a senior partner yelling at a junior partner (one occasion).

At most firms, in my experience, what's more common now is a certain tone, rather than volume. It can go from annoyance to exasperation to a pretty nasty edge we could probably call disdain or disgust combined with anger and frustration. It's also more apt to happen to seniors who the partner thinks should know better and holds to higher standards. Juniors don't really know anything so yelling at them doesn't have the same layer of dashed expectations. So yeah, the "yelling" itself has become more refined.

Which I guess speaks to the point I was getting at -- so what? I'm by no means a boot-licking junior but if I mess up and annoy or anger someone more senior to me instead of them keeping silent and spreading gossip I would much rather them tell me that they're annoyed and angry and then I can apologize and try my best to make sure it doesn't happen again. Unless it's basically a public shaming exercise where you're thrown under the bus in front of colleagues, or literal screaming, I really don't see why someone wouldn't understand why a senior who is probably more overworked than you would not be smiling and patting you on the head when they tell you that you messed up your job. Like are you a baby?

Interesting. As a senior, I have the opposite experience. Absolutely terrible work product from juniors, including horrific errors on key terms, like putting an interest rate at 15% rather than 4% just due to sheer incompetence. I always make a point of sending a redline showing my changes in the version sent out to client against the draft the junior prepared, instructing them to carefully review it and reach out with any questions on why I made changes. And yet...crickets...no follow-up questions, no apologies for absolutely mind boggling errors, no explanations, no excuses, just total apathy and silence. They don't make juniors like they used to...pretty clear many are just along for the ride and looking to do the bare minimum, and only care about antagonizing important partners, if even that.

[Anonymous User]

I keep seeing posts here, on fishbowl, etc., regarding partners or seniors or midlevels "yelling" at juniors. How often does this actually constitute literal yelling? I've been an associate since last fall and have not seen a single person get yelled at. I and others have certainly been criticized, often rightfully so (although often mistakes are the result of poor training), but have never seen or heard of anyone yelling. I've even had inexcusable fuck-ups, e.g., inadvertently sleeping in after working late. Still no yelling.

Same--I'm a fourth year and have been at two firms (lit)--I've never seen any yelling. The only yelling I've heard of was a senior partner yelling at a junior partner (one occasion).

At most firms, in my experience, what's more common now is a certain tone, rather than volume. It can go from annoyance to exasperation to a pretty nasty edge we could probably call disdain or disgust combined with anger and frustration. It's also more apt to happen to seniors who the partner thinks should know better and holds to higher standards. Juniors don't really know anything so yelling at them doesn't have the same layer of dashed expectations. So yeah, the "yelling" itself has become more refined.

Which I guess speaks to the point I was getting at -- so what? I'm by no means a boot-licking junior but if I mess up and annoy or anger someone more senior to me instead of them keeping silent and spreading gossip I would much rather them tell me that they're annoyed and angry and then I can apologize and try my best to make sure it doesn't happen again. Unless it's basically a public shaming exercise where you're thrown under the bus in front of colleagues, or literal screaming, I really don't see why someone wouldn't understand why a senior who is probably more overworked than you would not be smiling and patting you on the head when they tell you that you messed up your job. Like are you a baby?

Interesting. As a senior, I have the opposite experience. Absolutely terrible work product from juniors, including horrific errors on key terms, like putting an interest rate at 15% rather than 4% just due to sheer incompetence. I always make a point of sending a redline showing my changes in the version sent out to client against the draft the junior prepared, instructing them to carefully review it and reach out with any questions on why I made changes. And yet...crickets...no follow-up questions, no apologies for absolutely mind boggling errors, no explanations, no excuses, just total apathy and silence. They don't make juniors like they used to...pretty clear many are just along for the ride and looking to do the bare minimum, and only care about antagonizing important partners, if even that.

"here's a redline, review it and apologize for the error of your ways" is a really bad way to give feedback. Just say "hey FYI, in the future note that the interest rate on this should be consistent with the term sheet" or whatever. Don't expect us to be mind readers.

[Anonymous User]

I keep seeing posts here, on fishbowl, etc., regarding partners or seniors or midlevels "yelling" at juniors. How often does this actually constitute literal yelling? I've been an associate since last fall and have not seen a single person get yelled at. I and others have certainly been criticized, often rightfully so (although often mistakes are the result of poor training), but have never seen or heard of anyone yelling. I've even had inexcusable fuck-ups, e.g., inadvertently sleeping in after working late. Still no yelling.

Same--I'm a fourth year and have been at two firms (lit)--I've never seen any yelling. The only yelling I've heard of was a senior partner yelling at a junior partner (one occasion).

At most firms, in my experience, what's more common now is a certain tone, rather than volume. It can go from annoyance to exasperation to a pretty nasty edge we could probably call disdain or disgust combined with anger and frustration. It's also more apt to happen to seniors who the partner thinks should know better and holds to higher standards. Juniors don't really know anything so yelling at them doesn't have the same layer of dashed expectations. So yeah, the "yelling" itself has become more refined.

Which I guess speaks to the point I was getting at -- so what? I'm by no means a boot-licking junior but if I mess up and annoy or anger someone more senior to me instead of them keeping silent and spreading gossip I would much rather them tell me that they're annoyed and angry and then I can apologize and try my best to make sure it doesn't happen again. Unless it's basically a public shaming exercise where you're thrown under the bus in front of colleagues, or literal screaming, I really don't see why someone wouldn't understand why a senior who is probably more overworked than you would not be smiling and patting you on the head when they tell you that you messed up your job. Like are you a baby?

Interesting. As a senior, I have the opposite experience. Absolutely terrible work product from juniors, including horrific errors on key terms, like putting an interest rate at 15% rather than 4% just due to sheer incompetence. I always make a point of sending a redline showing my changes in the version sent out to client against the draft the junior prepared, instructing them to carefully review it and reach out with any questions on why I made changes. And yet...crickets...no follow-up questions, no apologies for absolutely mind boggling errors, no explanations, no excuses, just total apathy and silence. They don't make juniors like they used to...pretty clear many are just along for the ride and looking to do the bare minimum, and only care about antagonizing important partners, if even that.

"here's a redline, review it and apologize for the error of your ways" is a really bad way to give feedback. Just say "hey FYI, in the future note that the interest rate on this should be consistent with the term sheet" or whatever. Don't expect us to be mind readers.

If you are sent a redline with numerous changes, many of which are to reverse painfully obvious errors, you should feel pretty terrible about yourself, apologize profusely, and step up your game. This isn't 3rd grade, no one is going to sit here holding your hand and spoonfeeding you basic information.

[BrowsingTLS]

"here's a redline, review it and apologize for the error of your ways" is a really bad way to give feedback. Just say "hey FYI, in the future note that the interest rate on this should be consistent with the term sheet" or whatever. Don't expect us to be mind readers.

If you are sent a redline with numerous changes, many of which are to reverse painfully obvious errors, you should feel pretty terrible about yourself, apologize profusely, and step up your game. This isn't 3rd grade, no one is going to sit here holding your hand and spoonfeeding you basic information.

What. an. asshole.

Not the person you're replying to, as I'm in litigation. But if the equivalent happened to me (senior sends redline which makes my errors apparent) I would not read your mind that I need to feel terrible and apologize. And I definitely wouldn't apologize. You're a dick with the attitude that anyone should feel terrible about themselves and obliged to apologize, just because they felt short of your or anyone else's standards.

On the other hand, I have had a senior tell me explicitly "you shouldn't have done X." And in that instance I apologized and said it won't happen again, then got it right the next time. Guess which senior is going to be more effective at eliminating errors? The here's a redline and I hope you feel bad or the one who explicitly states there's an issue and advises against making the mistake, without hoping that the other feels bad.

[Anonymous User]

"here's a redline, review it and apologize for the error of your ways" is a really bad way to give feedback. Just say "hey FYI, in the future note that the interest rate on this should be consistent with the term sheet" or whatever. Don't expect us to be mind readers.

If you are sent a redline with numerous changes, many of which are to reverse painfully obvious errors, you should feel pretty terrible about yourself, apologize profusely, and step up your game. This isn't 3rd grade, no one is going to sit here holding your hand and spoonfeeding you basic information.

What. an. asshole.

Not the person you're replying to, as I'm in litigation. But if the equivalent happened to me (senior sends redline which makes my errors apparent) I would not read your mind that I need to feel terrible and apologize. And I definitely wouldn't apologize. You're a dick with the attitude that anyone should feel terrible about themselves and obliged to apologize, just because they felt short of your or anyone else's standards.

On the other hand, I have had a senior tell me explicitly "you shouldn't have done X." And in that instance I apologized and said it won't happen again, then got it right the next time. Guess which senior is going to be more effective at eliminating errors? The here's a redline and I hope you feel bad or the one who explicitly states there's an issue and advises against making the mistake, without hoping that the other feels bad.

If you don't have the minimal competence or desire to improve to bother to review a redline, notice your mistakes, and apologize for egregious ones, then maybe this isn't the right job for you. You can go sell cars and not need to worry about precision or being detail oriented.

I can tell you that when I was a junior in biglaw I never made the horrific errors I see juniors today making on a daily basis. And if somehow I did, I would literally be expecting the managing partner of the firm to be marching into my office with a box.

[Anonymous User]

"here's a redline, review it and apologize for the error of your ways" is a really bad way to give feedback. Just say "hey FYI, in the future note that the interest rate on this should be consistent with the term sheet" or whatever. Don't expect us to be mind readers.

If you are sent a redline with numerous changes, many of which are to reverse painfully obvious errors, you should feel pretty terrible about yourself, apologize profusely, and step up your game. This isn't 3rd grade, no one is going to sit here holding your hand and spoonfeeding you basic information.

What. an. asshole.

Not the person you're replying to, as I'm in litigation. But if the equivalent happened to me (senior sends redline which makes my errors apparent) I would not read your mind that I need to feel terrible and apologize. And I definitely wouldn't apologize. You're a dick with the attitude that anyone should feel terrible about themselves and obliged to apologize, just because they felt short of your or anyone else's standards.

On the other hand, I have had a senior tell me explicitly "you shouldn't have done X." And in that instance I apologized and said it won't happen again, then got it right the next time. Guess which senior is going to be more effective at eliminating errors? The here's a redline and I hope you feel bad or the one who explicitly states there's an issue and advises against making the mistake, without hoping that the other feels bad.

The funniest thing about this interaction (I'm anon "don't expect us to be mind readers") is that asshole senior over here is positively SEETHING and muttering to themselves "yeah I showed those kids, what an epic redline". Meanwhile the junior probably never even read it, will eventually catch on and stop making as many mistakes and be promoted all the same

[Anonymous User]

"here's a redline, review it and apologize for the error of your ways" is a really bad way to give feedback. Just say "hey FYI, in the future note that the interest rate on this should be consistent with the term sheet" or whatever. Don't expect us to be mind readers.

If you are sent a redline with numerous changes, many of which are to reverse painfully obvious errors, you should feel pretty terrible about yourself, apologize profusely, and step up your game. This isn't 3rd grade, no one is going to sit here holding your hand and spoonfeeding you basic information.

What. an. asshole.

Not the person you're replying to, as I'm in litigation. But if the equivalent happened to me (senior sends redline which makes my errors apparent) I would not read your mind that I need to feel terrible and apologize. And I definitely wouldn't apologize. You're a dick with the attitude that anyone should feel terrible about themselves and obliged to apologize, just because they felt short of your or anyone else's standards.

On the other hand, I have had a senior tell me explicitly "you shouldn't have done X." And in that instance I apologized and said it won't happen again, then got it right the next time. Guess which senior is going to be more effective at eliminating errors? The here's a redline and I hope you feel bad or the one who explicitly states there's an issue and advises against making the mistake, without hoping that the other feels bad.

The funniest thing about this interaction (I'm anon "don't expect us to be mind readers") is that asshole senior over here is positively SEETHING and muttering to themselves "yeah I showed those kids, what an epic redline". Meanwhile the junior probably never even read it, will eventually catch on and stop making as many mistakes and be promoted all the same

Actually, in my experience, they junior will probably be gone - either pushed out or burned out. You really don't get many second chances as a junior once your reputation is shot. Too easy to just push you out and replace you with the next cohort.

[Anonymous User]

If you don't have the minimal competence or desire to improve to bother to review a redline, notice your mistakes, and apologize for egregious ones, then maybe this isn't the right job for you. You can go sell cars and not need to worry about precision or being detail oriented.

I can tell you that when I was a junior in biglaw I never made the horrific errors I see juniors today making on a daily basis. And if somehow I did, I would literally be expecting the managing partner of the firm to be marching into my office with a box.

Look, I'm really sorry for you that your time as a junior was this traumatizing. But the answer is not to become a petty tyrant as soon as you have a scrap of power.

If you're motivated by wanting to get better work from juniors, multiple people are telling you here that this is not the most money efficient way to do so.

[Anonymous User]

If you don't have the minimal competence or desire to improve to bother to review a redline, notice your mistakes, and apologize for egregious ones, then maybe this isn't the right job for you. You can go sell cars and not need to worry about precision or being detail oriented.

I can tell you that when I was a junior in biglaw I never made the horrific errors I see juniors today making on a daily basis. And if somehow I did, I would literally be expecting the managing partner of the firm to be marching into my office with a box.

Look, I'm really sorry for you that your time as a junior was this traumatizing. But the answer is not to become a petty tyrant as soon as you have a scrap of power.

If you're motivated by wanting to get better work from juniors, multiple people are telling you here that this is not the most money efficient way to do so.

You are talking about an industry with like 80% attrition for juniors by year 4. I'm not overly concerned about trying to "help" juniors. I am throwing a life preserver to a drowning man, if he wants to he can save himself, otherwise he is welcome to go under, and I will move on to the next one. Biglaw is merciless and most people aren't cut out for it and are beyond any hope of ever being good enough.

[Anonymous User]

"here's a redline, review it and apologize for the error of your ways" is a really bad way to give feedback. Just say "hey FYI, in the future note that the interest rate on this should be consistent with the term sheet" or whatever. Don't expect us to be mind readers.

If you are sent a redline with numerous changes, many of which are to reverse painfully obvious errors, you should feel pretty terrible about yourself, apologize profusely, and step up your game. This isn't 3rd grade, no one is going to sit here holding your hand and spoonfeeding you basic information.

What. an. asshole.

Not the person you're replying to, as I'm in litigation. But if the equivalent happened to me (senior sends redline which makes my errors apparent) I would not read your mind that I need to feel terrible and apologize. And I definitely wouldn't apologize. You're a dick with the attitude that anyone should feel terrible about themselves and obliged to apologize, just because they felt short of your or anyone else's standards.

On the other hand, I have had a senior tell me explicitly "you shouldn't have done X." And in that instance I apologized and said it won't happen again, then got it right the next time. Guess which senior is going to be more effective at eliminating errors? The here's a redline and I hope you feel bad or the one who explicitly states there's an issue and advises against making the mistake, without hoping that the other feels bad.

The funniest thing about this interaction (I'm anon "don't expect us to be mind readers") is that asshole senior over here is positively SEETHING and muttering to themselves "yeah I showed those kids, what an epic redline". Meanwhile the junior probably never even read it, will eventually catch on and stop making as many mistakes and be promoted all the same

Actually, in my experience, they junior will probably be gone - either pushed out or burned out. You really don't get many second chances as a junior once your reputation is shot. Too easy to just push you out and replace you with the next cohort.

I have a hard time taking you seriously, so I don't think that the errors you're talking about ruin a junior's reputation. Everyone knows juniors don't know anything, that's why our work gets reviewed. I've been told by multiple people more normal than you that they made worse mistakes than I do and not to take feedback personally, just to keep learning. The juniors who aren't going to make it are the nonresponsive ones.

[Anonymous User]

If you don't have the minimal competence or desire to improve to bother to review a redline, notice your mistakes, and apologize for egregious ones, then maybe this isn't the right job for you. You can go sell cars and not need to worry about precision or being detail oriented.

I can tell you that when I was a junior in biglaw I never made the horrific errors I see juniors today making on a daily basis. And if somehow I did, I would literally be expecting the managing partner of the firm to be marching into my office with a box.

Look, I'm really sorry for you that your time as a junior was this traumatizing. But the answer is not to become a petty tyrant as soon as you have a scrap of power.

If you're motivated by wanting to get better work from juniors, multiple people are telling you here that this is not the most money efficient way to do so.

You are talking about an industry with like 80% attrition for juniors by year 4. I'm not overly concerned about trying to "help" juniors. I am throwing a life preserver to a drowning man, if he wants to he can save himself, otherwise he is welcome to go under, and I will move on to the next one. Biglaw is merciless and most people aren't cut out for it and are beyond any hope of ever being good enough.

And they say many lawyers are bad leaders! Where on earth do folks who say that get such notions?

Working for this person would be miserable. As someone who had a career before big law, I have little patience for this immaturity. Luckily I work with partners and associates (both younger and older than me) who are thoughtful and dedicated to their work and the development of their junior colleagues. I happily do what I can for them when late night or weekend work calls because I know they’ll be there for me. I would likely be “busy” or have a doctor appointment if this senior called me for a task.

[Anonymous User]

delete

[Joachim2017]

If you don't have the minimal competence or desire to improve to bother to review a redline, notice your mistakes, and apologize for egregious ones, then maybe this isn't the right job for you. You can go sell cars and not need to worry about precision or being detail oriented.

I can tell you that when I was a junior in biglaw I never made the horrific errors I see juniors today making on a daily basis. And if somehow I did, I would literally be expecting the managing partner of the firm to be marching into my office with a box.

Look, I'm really sorry for you that your time as a junior was this traumatizing. But the answer is not to become a petty tyrant as soon as you have a scrap of power.

If you're motivated by wanting to get better work from juniors, multiple people are telling you here that this is not the most money efficient way to do so.

You are talking about an industry with like 80% attrition for juniors by year 4. I'm not overly concerned about trying to "help" juniors. I am throwing a life preserver to a drowning man, if he wants to he can save himself, otherwise he is welcome to go under, and I will move on to the next one. Biglaw is merciless and most people aren't cut out for it and are beyond any hope of ever being good enough.

Life preserver? Merciless? From one senior associate to (presumably) another, you need to get a grip, my friend, you seem delusional.

[Anonymous User]

I keep seeing posts here, on fishbowl, etc., regarding partners or seniors or midlevels "yelling" at juniors. How often does this actually constitute literal yelling? I've been an associate since last fall and have not seen a single person get yelled at. I and others have certainly been criticized, often rightfully so (although often mistakes are the result of poor training), but have never seen or heard of anyone yelling. I've even had inexcusable fuck-ups, e.g., inadvertently sleeping in after working late. Still no yelling.

Same--I'm a fourth year and have been at two firms (lit)--I've never seen any yelling. The only yelling I've heard of was a senior partner yelling at a junior partner (one occasion).

At most firms, in my experience, what's more common now is a certain tone, rather than volume. It can go from annoyance to exasperation to a pretty nasty edge we could probably call disdain or disgust combined with anger and frustration. It's also more apt to happen to seniors who the partner thinks should know better and holds to higher standards. Juniors don't really know anything so yelling at them doesn't have the same layer of dashed expectations. So yeah, the "yelling" itself has become more refined.

Which I guess speaks to the point I was getting at -- so what? I'm by no means a boot-licking junior but if I mess up and annoy or anger someone more senior to me instead of them keeping silent and spreading gossip I would much rather them tell me that they're annoyed and angry and then I can apologize and try my best to make sure it doesn't happen again. Unless it's basically a public shaming exercise where you're thrown under the bus in front of colleagues, or literal screaming, I really don't see why someone wouldn't understand why a senior who is probably more overworked than you would not be smiling and patting you on the head when they tell you that you messed up your job. Like are you a baby?

Interesting. As a senior, I have the opposite experience. Absolutely terrible work product from juniors, including horrific errors on key terms, like putting an interest rate at 15% rather than 4% just due to sheer incompetence. I always make a point of sending a redline showing my changes in the version sent out to client against the draft the junior prepared, instructing them to carefully review it and reach out with any questions on why I made changes. And yet...crickets...no follow-up questions, no apologies for absolutely mind boggling errors, no explanations, no excuses, just total apathy and silence. They don't make juniors like they used to...pretty clear many are just along for the ride and looking to do the bare minimum, and only care about antagonizing important partners, if even that.

"here's a redline, review it and apologize for the error of your ways" is a really bad way to give feedback. Just say "hey FYI, in the future note that the interest rate on this should be consistent with the term sheet" or whatever. Don't expect us to be mind readers.

I really don’t think it takes a mind reader to understand that substantive terms in an agreement should mirror the substantive terms in the term sheet.

[Anonymous User]

If you don't have the minimal competence or desire to improve to bother to review a redline, notice your mistakes, and apologize for egregious ones, then maybe this isn't the right job for you. You can go sell cars and not need to worry about precision or being detail oriented.

I can tell you that when I was a junior in biglaw I never made the horrific errors I see juniors today making on a daily basis. And if somehow I did, I would literally be expecting the managing partner of the firm to be marching into my office with a box.

Look, I'm really sorry for you that your time as a junior was this traumatizing. But the answer is not to become a petty tyrant as soon as you have a scrap of power.

If you're motivated by wanting to get better work from juniors, multiple people are telling you here that this is not the most money efficient way to do so.

You are talking about an industry with like 80% attrition for juniors by year 4. I'm not overly concerned about trying to "help" juniors. I am throwing a life preserver to a drowning man, if he wants to he can save himself, otherwise he is welcome to go under, and I will move on to the next one. Biglaw is merciless and most people aren't cut out for it and are beyond any hope of ever being good enough.

Life preserver? Merciless? From one senior associate to (presumably) another, you need to get a grip, my friend, you seem delusional.

Not sure you realize how terrible junior work product is these days? Completely different economic terms? Check. Failing to change party names? Check. Substantive changes that make things worse for our client and better for the other side? Check. Complete failure to follow basic instructions? Check. Total apathy and indifference when serious errors pointed out? Check.

Very clear that so many juniors are just along for the ride, looking to repay some loans while doing the bare minimum, and couldn't give two bits about the work, the clients, the firm or anything else to do with the job. Gotta wonder if maybe you picked the wrong field.

[Prudent_Jurist]

I keep seeing posts here, on fishbowl, etc., regarding partners or seniors or midlevels "yelling" at juniors. How often does this actually constitute literal yelling? I've been an associate since last fall and have not seen a single person get yelled at. I and others have certainly been criticized, often rightfully so (although often mistakes are the result of poor training), but have never seen or heard of anyone yelling. I've even had inexcusable fuck-ups, e.g., inadvertently sleeping in after working late. Still no yelling.

Same--I'm a fourth year and have been at two firms (lit)--I've never seen any yelling. The only yelling I've heard of was a senior partner yelling at a junior partner (one occasion).

At most firms, in my experience, what's more common now is a certain tone, rather than volume. It can go from annoyance to exasperation to a pretty nasty edge we could probably call disdain or disgust combined with anger and frustration. It's also more apt to happen to seniors who the partner thinks should know better and holds to higher standards. Juniors don't really know anything so yelling at them doesn't have the same layer of dashed expectations. So yeah, the "yelling" itself has become more refined.

Which I guess speaks to the point I was getting at -- so what? I'm by no means a boot-licking junior but if I mess up and annoy or anger someone more senior to me instead of them keeping silent and spreading gossip I would much rather them tell me that they're annoyed and angry and then I can apologize and try my best to make sure it doesn't happen again. Unless it's basically a public shaming exercise where you're thrown under the bus in front of colleagues, or literal screaming, I really don't see why someone wouldn't understand why a senior who is probably more overworked than you would not be smiling and patting you on the head when they tell you that you messed up your job. Like are you a baby?

Interesting. As a senior, I have the opposite experience. Absolutely terrible work product from juniors, including horrific errors on key terms, like putting an interest rate at 15% rather than 4% just due to sheer incompetence. I always make a point of sending a redline showing my changes in the version sent out to client against the draft the junior prepared, instructing them to carefully review it and reach out with any questions on why I made changes. And yet...crickets...no follow-up questions, no apologies for absolutely mind boggling errors, no explanations, no excuses, just total apathy and silence. They don't make juniors like they used to...pretty clear many are just along for the ride and looking to do the bare minimum, and only care about antagonizing important partners, if even that.

"here's a redline, review it and apologize for the error of your ways" is a really bad way to give feedback. Just say "hey FYI, in the future note that the interest rate on this should be consistent with the term sheet" or whatever. Don't expect us to be mind readers.

I really don’t think it takes a mind reader to understand that substantive terms in an agreement should mirror the substantive terms in the term sheet.

What they mean is that it takes a mind reader to understand that a senior sending you redlines expects you to grovel and apologize for every mistake you made as divinely revealed by their edits.

But the better option for competently managing juniors is not to play petty games but to tell them upfront what errors they made.

Somehow some poster above believes the former is “professional” and the latter is “coddling,” or some shit.

Or simply send the redline and leave it alone: either the junior will get it, or they won’t. Just don’t expect kowtowing as a response to your redline from on high.

[Anonymous User]

If you don't have the minimal competence or desire to improve to bother to review a redline, notice your mistakes, and apologize for egregious ones, then maybe this isn't the right job for you. You can go sell cars and not need to worry about precision or being detail oriented.

I can tell you that when I was a junior in biglaw I never made the horrific errors I see juniors today making on a daily basis. And if somehow I did, I would literally be expecting the managing partner of the firm to be marching into my office with a box.

Look, I'm really sorry for you that your time as a junior was this traumatizing. But the answer is not to become a petty tyrant as soon as you have a scrap of power.

If you're motivated by wanting to get better work from juniors, multiple people are telling you here that this is not the most money efficient way to do so.

You are talking about an industry with like 80% attrition for juniors by year 4. I'm not overly concerned about trying to "help" juniors. I am throwing a life preserver to a drowning man, if he wants to he can save himself, otherwise he is welcome to go under, and I will move on to the next one. Biglaw is merciless and most people aren't cut out for it and are beyond any hope of ever being good enough.

Life preserver? Merciless? From one senior associate to (presumably) another, you need to get a grip, my friend, you seem delusional.

Not sure you realize how terrible junior work product is these days? Completely different economic terms? Check. Failing to change party names? Check. Substantive changes that make things worse for our client and better for the other side? Check. Complete failure to follow basic instructions? Check. Total apathy and indifference when serious errors pointed out? Check.

Very clear that so many juniors are just along for the ride, looking to repay some loans while doing the bare minimum, and couldn't give two bits about the work, the clients, the firm or anything else to do with the job. Gotta wonder if maybe you picked the wrong field.

If every junior is sending you terrible work product, it’s probably time to take a hard look in the mirror and ask yourself how you’re contributing to that.