Vacation - what's your expectation vs reality in BigLaw Forum

[Anonymous User]

I’m a mid-senior, and I have taken an off the grid trip every year. Those trips have never been remotely disrupted. Most importantly, I’m very lucky to work with great people who respect the trip. But secondly, I make a point of going off the grid (or making it appear I’ll be more off the grid than I am). I tell people I’ll be checking emails, but I make no guarantees it’ll happen daily. If people have a problem with it, I’m lucky to have a great base set of people I work with.

When I first started in BigLaw, I was surprised by the number of people who spent their vacations backpacking in Argentina or kayaking in Alaska as opposed to lounging at the Four Seasons in Cabo. Then I realized that it was (at least partially) because the off-the-grid stuff gives you a built-in excuse to be offline but everyone knows that the Four Seasons has WIFI.

That said, I have taken several short beach/resort-type vacations as a junior and it has never been a problem. I usually end up checking my emails in the morning and working for an hour or so, but I don't feel that it prevents me from enjoying my vacation.

I would usually just make up what I was doing and say I’d be totally off the grid even if I was actually going to have WiFi the whole time. None of their business what I’m doing. I’m not going to climb a mountain just to be left alone.

[Sackboy]

My vacations are 100% respected, and I do maybe a couple hours of work over a week long vacation. That being said, I only take 2 week long vacations a year and opt to do a lot of 3-4 day weekends. I find that it helps me control my hours better, and I also despise the period of work after coming back from a week long vacation. Overall, though, I definitely vacation around 4 weeks of the year.

[Lacepiece23]

I worked at a V50 or so firm. Vacations were sort of respected. But I think it’s worse than at higher vault firms.

My firms clients didn’t like the idea of multiple/different associates on the bill. Pretty hard to find coverage if staffed on those matters. And I worked with very few partners that were like I’ll just do the work instead.

[Anonymous User]

Jesus you all need to get a grip.

When vacation is booked: “hi staffing, I’m going to be out on vacation X-Y. Let me know if that’s going to be a problem.” … it won’t be if you do it more than 4 weeks out, which you should.

4 weeks before vacation: “hi staffing, reminder that I’m going to be out on vacation X-Y, please let me know who you think would be good to cover my active matters ABC, I probably won’t need for DEF.”

4-1 weeks before vacation: work WITH staffing to find coverage.

In the week before vacation: email to people you’re working with “hi all, reminder I’m out on vacation X-Y. I’ve arranged coverage for all things that needed it, if I haven’t reached out to you about coverage but you think we still need, please let me know today so I can work with [staffing] to sort it ASAP.

Day before vacation: “hi all, reminder I am out on vacation tomorrow - Y. I will not be checking email regularly but will respond when I am able to so please expect delayed responses.”

Set OOO auto-reply to say basically the same thing.

Stop giving people the wrong idea because YOU are incapable of setting boundaries.

[Lacepiece23]

Jesus you all need to get a grip.

When vacation is booked: “hi staffing, I’m going to be out on vacation X-Y. Let me know if that’s going to be a problem.” … it won’t be if you do it more than 4 weeks out, which you should.

4 weeks before vacation: “hi staffing, reminder that I’m going to be out on vacation X-Y, please let me know who you think would be good to cover my active matters ABC, I probably won’t need for DEF.”

4-1 weeks before vacation: work WITH staffing to find coverage.

In the week before vacation: email to people you’re working with “hi all, reminder I’m out on vacation X-Y. I’ve arranged coverage for all things that needed it, if I haven’t reached out to you about coverage but you think we still need, please let me know today so I can work with [staffing] to sort it ASAP.

Day before vacation: “hi all, reminder I am out on vacation tomorrow - Y. I will not be checking email regularly but will respond when I am able to so please expect delayed responses.”

Set OOO auto-reply to say basically the same thing.

Stop giving people the wrong idea because YOU are incapable of setting boundaries.

Not sure what staffing is. Assignment coordinator?

[Anonymous User]

It's worth noting that some places don't have centralized staffing...

[Anonymous User]

Jesus you all need to get a grip.

When vacation is booked: “hi staffing, I’m going to be out on vacation X-Y. Let me know if that’s going to be a problem.” … it won’t be if you do it more than 4 weeks out, which you should.

4 weeks before vacation: “hi staffing, reminder that I’m going to be out on vacation X-Y, please let me know who you think would be good to cover my active matters ABC, I probably won’t need for DEF.”

4-1 weeks before vacation: work WITH staffing to find coverage.

In the week before vacation: email to people you’re working with “hi all, reminder I’m out on vacation X-Y. I’ve arranged coverage for all things that needed it, if I haven’t reached out to you about coverage but you think we still need, please let me know today so I can work with [staffing] to sort it ASAP.

Day before vacation: “hi all, reminder I am out on vacation tomorrow - Y. I will not be checking email regularly but will respond when I am able to so please expect delayed responses.”

Set OOO auto-reply to say basically the same thing.

Stop giving people the wrong idea because YOU are incapable of setting boundaries.

This is way too over-simplistic at best, naive at worst. As a litigator, I can give plenty of notice; but if I'm around like 1-2 weeks out from the pre-announced vacation datees, and then the court sets a hearing or a filing deadline that conflicts, I can't just tell the partner "gee, well, I had planned my vacation for that time period and I gave you plenty of notice, so..."

You wouldn't be immediately fired, but it would be remembered and it will have a real adverse impact at least with that team (and people talk). So yea, if you don't care about your rep long-term, sure, but other than that, this is not as simple as you make it appear.

[Anonymous User]

It really depends. Generally, at my office, it gets respected. But there are a few associates who don't care. There is always significant overlap with the associates who don't even try to request things at normal hours (like starting to e-mail at 8pm for something that can definitely wait until the next day) and those that bother you during holidays. On my most recent trip I got a request in and then a chaser a few hours after. It was for a client that requested something, but it wasn't time sensitive in the slightest. I just ignored it completely and replied when I was back. I'm not responsible for their anxiety.

[Anonymous User]

Jesus you all need to get a grip.

When vacation is booked: “hi staffing, I’m going to be out on vacation X-Y. Let me know if that’s going to be a problem.” … it won’t be if you do it more than 4 weeks out, which you should.

4 weeks before vacation: “hi staffing, reminder that I’m going to be out on vacation X-Y, please let me know who you think would be good to cover my active matters ABC, I probably won’t need for DEF.”

4-1 weeks before vacation: work WITH staffing to find coverage.

In the week before vacation: email to people you’re working with “hi all, reminder I’m out on vacation X-Y. I’ve arranged coverage for all things that needed it, if I haven’t reached out to you about coverage but you think we still need, please let me know today so I can work with [staffing] to sort it ASAP.

Day before vacation: “hi all, reminder I am out on vacation tomorrow - Y. I will not be checking email regularly but will respond when I am able to so please expect delayed responses.”

Set OOO auto-reply to say basically the same thing.

Stop giving people the wrong idea because YOU are incapable of setting boundaries.

This is way too over-simplistic at best, naive at worst. As a litigator, I can give plenty of notice; but if I'm around like 1-2 weeks out from the pre-announced vacation datees, and then the court sets a hearing or a filing deadline that conflicts, I can't just tell the partner "gee, well, I had planned my vacation for that time period and I gave you plenty of notice, so..."

You wouldn't be immediately fired, but it would be remembered and it will have a real adverse impact at least with that team (and people talk). So yea, if you don't care about your rep long-term, sure, but other than that, this is not as simple as you make it appear.

OP — point taken re the lack of centralized staffing from the comment in between these. That’s certainly tougher, but good communication will solve most issues.

As to this, so what? “Sorry partner, I have booked and told you I will be out at this time, deal with it, this is your case not mine.” I’m not in lit, so fine, perhaps it really would be different there. In my years of closings in various corporate matters in a v10 NYC sweatshop, including for some of the more notorious shouters, falling during my vacation, partners deal with it. They know how to run their case / deal and will get it done.

[Anonymous User]

Jesus you all need to get a grip.

When vacation is booked: “hi staffing, I’m going to be out on vacation X-Y. Let me know if that’s going to be a problem.” … it won’t be if you do it more than 4 weeks out, which you should.

4 weeks before vacation: “hi staffing, reminder that I’m going to be out on vacation X-Y, please let me know who you think would be good to cover my active matters ABC, I probably won’t need for DEF.”

4-1 weeks before vacation: work WITH staffing to find coverage.

In the week before vacation: email to people you’re working with “hi all, reminder I’m out on vacation X-Y. I’ve arranged coverage for all things that needed it, if I haven’t reached out to you about coverage but you think we still need, please let me know today so I can work with [staffing] to sort it ASAP.

Day before vacation: “hi all, reminder I am out on vacation tomorrow - Y. I will not be checking email regularly but will respond when I am able to so please expect delayed responses.”

Set OOO auto-reply to say basically the same thing.

Stop giving people the wrong idea because YOU are incapable of setting boundaries.

Not sure what staffing is. Assignment coordinator?

Yep! Whatever form this takes (partner or full-time person)

[Anonymous User]

I honestly schedule my vacations a few days in advance. This is how it works in practice:
You can book it a month in advance, but it means fuck all if your deal explodes a day before you go on holiday. Sure you can find cover, but generally I find that if a deal truly gets busy, you need the person on it who has been part of the team. Otherwise they'll just have to ask you everything anyway. So I wait until I know the coast is clear and book it then as late as possible.

[RedNewJersey]

So, look, everybody wants you to have your vacation, but nobody wants their life to suck as a result or to mess anything up. To me, that's reasonable, and I don't assume it's just somebody else's problem or that they're psychos.

So, what does that mean? You look at your matters, see where you'll have some downtime, plan a vacation then, and tell people about it. Done.

If something weird comes up, that's going to suck for somebody. It's a judgment call whether you say "sucks for *you* because I told you and my vacation is the most important thing," or "bummer, I'll reschedule." To me, it'd be something like 50/50 (because it's partly on me to predict accurately when I'm actually needed. But all of this is self-imposed. Nobody has told me I have to cancel a trip or anything, and they wouldn't do that--they'd just deal with it and (perhaps) question my judgment a little bit. There's no avoiding good judgment, and no rule you can follow that makes your actions perfectly fine (because, again, the question is allocating the costs of an unexpected event, and I don't think the answer is "it always is somebody else's problem").

Things would be different if you were a line cook or hourly employee. You're not.

[Anonymous User]

Jesus you all need to get a grip.

When vacation is booked: “hi staffing, I’m going to be out on vacation X-Y. Let me know if that’s going to be a problem.” … it won’t be if you do it more than 4 weeks out, which you should.

4 weeks before vacation: “hi staffing, reminder that I’m going to be out on vacation X-Y, please let me know who you think would be good to cover my active matters ABC, I probably won’t need for DEF.”

4-1 weeks before vacation: work WITH staffing to find coverage.

In the week before vacation: email to people you’re working with “hi all, reminder I’m out on vacation X-Y. I’ve arranged coverage for all things that needed it, if I haven’t reached out to you about coverage but you think we still need, please let me know today so I can work with [staffing] to sort it ASAP.

Day before vacation: “hi all, reminder I am out on vacation tomorrow - Y. I will not be checking email regularly but will respond when I am able to so please expect delayed responses.”

Set OOO auto-reply to say basically the same thing.

Stop giving people the wrong idea because YOU are incapable of setting boundaries.

Not sure what staffing is. Assignment coordinator?

Yep! Whatever form this takes (partner or full-time person)

We don't have any kind of assignment person like this at my firm. I guess there is technically one but I have not never gotten an assignment from him and do not know of anyone else who has.

It honestly has made planning for vacations impossible because I'd have to separately coordinate myself between the 5-6 matters I'm on at a time. I don't think people realize how much a staffing system plays in to taking vacation and it's definitely something to keep in mind.

[Anonymous User]

I honestly schedule my vacations a few days in advance. This is how it works in practice:
You can book it a month in advance, but it means fuck all if your deal explodes a day before you go on holiday. Sure you can find cover, but generally I find that if a deal truly gets busy, you need the person on it who has been part of the team. Otherwise they'll just have to ask you everything anyway. So I wait until I know the coast is clear and book it then as late as possible.

Seems like a transactional/litigation difference. In lit, I know well in advance when an expert report or a summary judgment motion will be due, so I lock in time off in the gaps around that schedule and then spend the 2 months leading up to the vacation refusing to take work that would require me falling into that gap.

[Anonymous User]

Jesus you all need to get a grip.

When vacation is booked: “hi staffing, I’m going to be out on vacation X-Y. Let me know if that’s going to be a problem.” … it won’t be if you do it more than 4 weeks out, which you should.

4 weeks before vacation: “hi staffing, reminder that I’m going to be out on vacation X-Y, please let me know who you think would be good to cover my active matters ABC, I probably won’t need for DEF.”

4-1 weeks before vacation: work WITH staffing to find coverage.

In the week before vacation: email to people you’re working with “hi all, reminder I’m out on vacation X-Y. I’ve arranged coverage for all things that needed it, if I haven’t reached out to you about coverage but you think we still need, please let me know today so I can work with [staffing] to sort it ASAP.

Day before vacation: “hi all, reminder I am out on vacation tomorrow - Y. I will not be checking email regularly but will respond when I am able to so please expect delayed responses.”

Set OOO auto-reply to say basically the same thing.

Stop giving people the wrong idea because YOU are incapable of setting boundaries.

That's 5 steps, and for those without a staffing coordinator (officially or not) that's x3-4 or so, for each partner you're working with. So you're talking about potentially 20 different emails and finding coverage for multiple matters. Which is what most of us are doing anyway and complaining about because of how much falls on us. Ideal situation: there's a central person, you notify them once and you're good to go. Or at least it shouldn't be my job to find coverage.

Also can not with the silly "get a grip" stuff? This isn't a pissing contest. Biglaw is a rough environment and we're trying to get through it. Bullying language is just infantile and symptomatic of the toxic culture tbh.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a little surprised by the expectation that a central entity would find coverage for you. In every job I’m aware of, not just law, especially one that relies on your specific knowledge of a project or what have you (so not like being a server or retail or something else where everyone in the same position has the exact same responsibilities), it’s on the employee to find coverage if they’re going to be out. Obviously that’s more of a pain in the ass the more matters you’re on and if no one is going to respect your vacation anyway it seems pointless. But in my experience it’s always on the employee to make sure their stuff will be covered while they’re gone.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a little surprised by the expectation that a central entity would find coverage for you. In every job I’m aware of, not just law, especially one that relies on your specific knowledge of a project or what have you (so not like being a server or retail or something else where everyone in the same position has the exact same responsibilities), it’s on the employee to find coverage if they’re going to be out. Obviously that’s more of a pain in the ass the more matters you’re on and if no one is going to respect your vacation anyway it seems pointless. But in my experience it’s always on the employee to make sure their stuff will be covered while they’re gone.

I'm genuinely curious what work experience you have, because this was never my experience. I had multiple jobs prior to law school. It was always the manager's responsibility to allocate the work. That's the job of a manager. "Hey Joe, Susie is going to be out next week, can you please pick up the TPS reports".

The problem with law firms is that there are no managers.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a little surprised by the expectation that a central entity would find coverage for you. In every job I’m aware of, not just law, especially one that relies on your specific knowledge of a project or what have you (so not like being a server or retail or something else where everyone in the same position has the exact same responsibilities), it’s on the employee to find coverage if they’re going to be out. Obviously that’s more of a pain in the ass the more matters you’re on and if no one is going to respect your vacation anyway it seems pointless. But in my experience it’s always on the employee to make sure their stuff will be covered while they’re gone.

Lol to junior associates and their "specific knowledge". You are just a peon whose job it is to move commas around and churn out hours. One of the other 200 peons in the firm can do your work just as easily.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a little surprised by the expectation that a central entity would find coverage for you. In every job I’m aware of, not just law, especially one that relies on your specific knowledge of a project or what have you (so not like being a server or retail or something else where everyone in the same position has the exact same responsibilities), it’s on the employee to find coverage if they’re going to be out. Obviously that’s more of a pain in the ass the more matters you’re on and if no one is going to respect your vacation anyway it seems pointless. But in my experience it’s always on the employee to make sure their stuff will be covered while they’re gone.

Lol to junior associates and their "specific knowledge". You are just a peon whose job it is to move commas around and churn out hours. One of the other 200 peons in the firm can do your work just as easily.

I mean of course they can, but if you’re in lit and you have an assignment on a specific case, that usually requires you to, you know, know the facts of the case. I didn’t say no one else could learn what you know (and obviously if there are a zillion other associates staffed on it this is less pertinent), just that it matters for finding coverage in a way that isn’t the case in all jobs.

(Also thanks to the TPS report person for answering. Maybe I’ve only worked in similarly manager-less kinds of jobs.)

[Anonymous User]

I’m a little surprised by the expectation that a central entity would find coverage for you. In every job I’m aware of, not just law, especially one that relies on your specific knowledge of a project or what have you (so not like being a server or retail or something else where everyone in the same position has the exact same responsibilities), it’s on the employee to find coverage if they’re going to be out. Obviously that’s more of a pain in the ass the more matters you’re on and if no one is going to respect your vacation anyway it seems pointless. But in my experience it’s always on the employee to make sure their stuff will be covered while they’re gone.

Lol to junior associates and their "specific knowledge". You are just a peon whose job it is to move commas around and churn out hours. One of the other 200 peons in the firm can do your work just as easily.

I mean of course they can, but if you’re in lit and you have an assignment on a specific case, that usually requires you to, you know, know the facts of the case. I didn’t say no one else could learn what you know (and obviously if there are a zillion other associates staffed on it this is less pertinent), just that it matters for finding coverage in a way that isn’t the case in all jobs.

(Also thanks to the TPS report person for answering. Maybe I’ve only worked in similarly manager-less kinds of jobs.)

I guess if you got hit by a bus the firm would just default on the matter and commit massive malpractice? It's all a joke, the partner could 100% do the work himself if he wanted to, or bring another associate up to speed. Don't be a jellyfish.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a little surprised by the expectation that a central entity would find coverage for you. In every job I’m aware of, not just law, especially one that relies on your specific knowledge of a project or what have you (so not like being a server or retail or something else where everyone in the same position has the exact same responsibilities), it’s on the employee to find coverage if they’re going to be out. Obviously that’s more of a pain in the ass the more matters you’re on and if no one is going to respect your vacation anyway it seems pointless. But in my experience it’s always on the employee to make sure their stuff will be covered while they’re gone.

Lol to junior associates and their "specific knowledge". You are just a peon whose job it is to move commas around and churn out hours. One of the other 200 peons in the firm can do your work just as easily.

I mean of course they can, but if you’re in lit and you have an assignment on a specific case, that usually requires you to, you know, know the facts of the case. I didn’t say no one else could learn what you know (and obviously if there are a zillion other associates staffed on it this is less pertinent), just that it matters for finding coverage in a way that isn’t the case in all jobs.

(Also thanks to the TPS report person for answering. Maybe I’ve only worked in similarly manager-less kinds of jobs.)

I guess if you got hit by a bus the firm would just default on the matter and commit massive malpractice? It's all a joke, the partner could 100% do the work himself if he wanted to, or bring another associate up to speed. Don't be a jellyfish.

Dude, calm the fuck down. Of course if you get hit by a bus - or even just quit! - the firm will survive just fine. Of course the partner can handle it or bring another associate up to speed. The whole point of this discussion is whether they're willing to when you're going to be gone for like a week, not when you are no longer available ever. I'm not claiming that you, already staffed on the case, are precious and irreplaceable. I'm only saying that for some assignments, other people will have to do additional work to get up to speed on before they can cover, and that is unlike some other kinds of jobs. I'm not saying they shouldn't do that work or shouldn't cover for you or you shouldn't go on your vacation undisturbed. Literally all I'm saying in that in my experience it has been on the employee to find the person who can do that additional work, and I'm not even saying it should be on the employee, and it sounds like my experience may be atypical. So dial it back and read what people actually write.

[Joachim2017]

There is definitely a difference between lit and transactional practices here, and also a difference in how senior an associate you are. In transactional the life cycles of deals are smaller and more modular; in lit, and especially as you get more senior, you are central to the life cycle of cases that are often long and meandering and sometimes take unexpected turns.

On the lit side, it's not the case that you will always know time commitments in the simplistic way mentioned above -- e.g., "we know when the deadline for filing the SJ motion is, so I can schedule my vacation around that." As you get more senior, you will find that court decisions (extensions, conference calls, discovery motions and disputes) can come up in ways that aren't predictable well in advance. Or the team may decide it needs to draft up a collateral motion (a motion to strike, for example) that was not something associates could have anticipated when planning vacations. If you're senior enough, and central enough to a case, you can't just say "oh well, that interferes with the vacation I gave you advance notice of a long time ago". At least not in top-tier boutiques or Big Law shops (unless you're planning to leave the firm anyway).

[Anonymous User]

I’m a little surprised by the expectation that a central entity would find coverage for you. In every job I’m aware of, not just law, especially one that relies on your specific knowledge of a project or what have you (so not like being a server or retail or something else where everyone in the same position has the exact same responsibilities), it’s on the employee to find coverage if they’re going to be out. Obviously that’s more of a pain in the ass the more matters you’re on and if no one is going to respect your vacation anyway it seems pointless. But in my experience it’s always on the employee to make sure their stuff will be covered while they’re gone.

Lol to junior associates and their "specific knowledge". You are just a peon whose job it is to move commas around and churn out hours. One of the other 200 peons in the firm can do your work just as easily.

I mean of course they can, but if you’re in lit and you have an assignment on a specific case, that usually requires you to, you know, know the facts of the case. I didn’t say no one else could learn what you know (and obviously if there are a zillion other associates staffed on it this is less pertinent), just that it matters for finding coverage in a way that isn’t the case in all jobs.

(Also thanks to the TPS report person for answering. Maybe I’ve only worked in similarly manager-less kinds of jobs.)

I guess if you got hit by a bus the firm would just default on the matter and commit massive malpractice? It's all a joke, the partner could 100% do the work himself if he wanted to, or bring another associate up to speed. Don't be a jellyfish.

Dude, calm the fuck down. Of course if you get hit by a bus - or even just quit! - the firm will survive just fine. Of course the partner can handle it or bring another associate up to speed. The whole point of this discussion is whether they're willing to when you're going to be gone for like a week, not when you are no longer available ever. I'm not claiming that you, already staffed on the case, are precious and irreplaceable. I'm only saying that for some assignments, other people will have to do additional work to get up to speed on before they can cover, and that is unlike some other kinds of jobs. I'm not saying they shouldn't do that work or shouldn't cover for you or you shouldn't go on your vacation undisturbed. Literally all I'm saying in that in my experience it has been on the employee to find the person who can do that additional work, and I'm not even saying it should be on the employee, and it sounds like my experience may be atypical. So dial it back and read what people actually write.

Kirkland much? Once again, this is the partner's problem, not your problem. The reason so many associates are so miserable in biglaw is because they take on the role of the owners of the business (finding employees to cover work for other employees on vacation) without the compensation of being owners of the business. Learn to say no and let the partners figure it out.

[Anonymous User]

Kirkland much? Once again, this is the partner's problem, not your problem. The reason so many associates are so miserable in biglaw is because they take on the role of the owners of the business (finding employees to cover work for other employees on vacation) without the compensation of being owners of the business. Learn to say no and let the partners figure it out.

lol, no, I'm not at Kirkland, and you're not actually reading anything I'm saying.

[Anonymous User]

Do you get reimbursed if you have to cancel a vacation? I personally like hunting and am planning on using some of that biglaw money on some hunts. They can run from the mid 4 figures to low-mid 5 figures and most of that is not refundable. So would I just be majorly screwed??