How many hours do you bill? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Just want to chime in to say I'm really impressed that this hasn't become a measuring contest for high billers. I won't post my (high) hours for that reason, but it's nice to see that avoiding soul crushing hours is not only possible, but also common.

Yeah I don't know that these low numbers are "common", may be more of a self-selection effect on here. At my firm I cannot imagine more than 1 or 2 folks sub-1950 and that only in unusual circumstances...

I think people don’t really understand that the average billables at many places are a lot lower than they think.

I’ve discussed this with other associates before. RPL at firms is way too low that a majority of attorneys at a firm are billing way over 2000 hours. Some of the highest RPLs are in the $1.5-1.7mm range. Let’s say the average blended rate for partners/associates is $1500 at those firms. Firms aren’t giving 50% discounts to clients. You get where I’m going with this.

The average is below 1900/year at essentially all but 1-3 firms. I think the highest billing associates (from premiere M&A and capM practices and related groups) are just way over-represented on TLS and distort the perception of an average big law experience, which is grueling enough.

[Anonymous User]

Just want to chime in to say I'm really impressed that this hasn't become a measuring contest for high billers. I won't post my (high) hours for that reason, but it's nice to see that avoiding soul crushing hours is not only possible, but also common.

Yeah I don't know that these low numbers are "common", may be more of a self-selection effect on here. At my firm I cannot imagine more than 1 or 2 folks sub-1950 and that only in unusual circumstances...

I think people don’t really understand that the average billables at many places are a lot lower than they think.

I’ve discussed this with other associates before. RPL at firms is way too low that a majority of attorneys at a firm are billing way over 2000 hours. Some of the highest RPLs are in the $1.5-1.7mm range. Let’s say the average blended rate for partners/associates is $1500 at those firms. Firms aren’t giving 50% discounts to clients. You get where I’m going with this.

The average is below 1900/year at essentially all but 1-3 firms. I think the highest billing associates (from premiere M&A and capM practices and related groups) are just way over-represented on TLS and distort the perception of an average big law experience, which is grueling enough.

Where are you pulling these numbers from? I'm asking as I'm considering a move to NY/SF Capital Markets (but not a premiere firm (at least, I don't think so)), but I'm wary to give up my comfy satellite office job (first year billed 1800, second 1700, currently on track for 1600 but will probably end up around 1,800).

[Anonymous User]

Just want to chime in to say I'm really impressed that this hasn't become a measuring contest for high billers. I won't post my (high) hours for that reason, but it's nice to see that avoiding soul crushing hours is not only possible, but also common.

Yeah I don't know that these low numbers are "common", may be more of a self-selection effect on here. At my firm I cannot imagine more than 1 or 2 folks sub-1950 and that only in unusual circumstances...

I think people don’t really understand that the average billables at many places are a lot lower than they think.

I’ve discussed this with other associates before. RPL at firms is way too low that a majority of attorneys at a firm are billing way over 2000 hours. Some of the highest RPLs are in the $1.5-1.7mm range. Let’s say the average blended rate for partners/associates is $1500 at those firms. Firms aren’t giving 50% discounts to clients. You get where I’m going with this.

The average is below 1900/year at essentially all but 1-3 firms. I think the highest billing associates (from premiere M&A and capM practices and related groups) are just way over-represented on TLS and distort the perception of an average big law experience, which is grueling enough.

The problem (which you get at hear by pointing to specific groups) is that the average number doesn’t guarantee anyone’s actual experience will match the average. Not only will different groups have different expectations, but my understanding is that average hours usually includes people on parental/other leave or who’ve only been there part of the year, which depresses the average. That may not apply everywhere, of course, but it’s worth keeping in mind.

[Anonymous User]

The problem (which you get at hear by pointing to specific groups) is that the average number doesn’t guarantee anyone’s actual experience will match the average. Not only will different groups have different expectations, but my understanding is that average hours usually includes people on parental/other leave or who’ve only been there part of the year, which depresses the average. That may not apply everywhere, of course, but it’s worth keeping in mind.

Even if the average includes parental/other leave you can still have typical biglaw RPL numbers with relatively low hours. There are far too many assumptions to make to put together a perfect model to prove this point, but here's an example anyway.

Lets take a firm with 1:3 leverage ratio and 100 attorneys. That means you have 25 partners and 75 associates. I've listed out some assumptions for billing rates and class sizes from years 1-10. Note that this distribution will underestimate revenues for law firms that have counsels or a large number of more senior associates past year 10. I also think that the rates are relatively low for some of the higher RPL firms. I'll also assume 80% collection rate given write-offs, discounts, etc. - not sure if that's typical but I need to plug something in.

Y1....$500....16 associates
Y2....$650....13
Y3....$800....11
Y4....$950....8
Y5....$1,000....7
Y6....$1,050....6
Y7....$1,100....5
Y8....$1,125....4
Y9....$1,150....3
Y10...$1,175....2
Partner....$1,400....25

Assuming no leave and 1850 billable hours per attorney (no pro nono, etc.) per attorney, this yields an RPL of $1.435m. Right on par with lots of biglaw firms.

Now lets mix it up - assume that 1 person from each class year (including partner) is out on leave for some reason. That's putting 11 of 100 people on the bench. To get a similar RPL number, you need to boost the average billables by about 200 hours per attorney to 2050 (that yields an RPL of $1.41m).

2050 is admittedly higher than many posters ITT, but remember that's an average. Everybody knows there's always some gunner pushing 2500+ hours in a given class year, and some partners will work a lot more as well. For every 2500+ gunner you can have two other attorneys billing at 1850. Plus, this model doesn't take into account permanent counsel roles, etc. that would have higher billing rates, and thus boost the RPL numbers. And I don't think 11% of a given firm is out on leave, either. I don't feel like running another set of numbers, but you absolutely can have $1.4m or so RPL with lots of people on leave and most of your workforce billing sub-2000 hours.

Suffice to say that you can have lots of people on leave and still end up with your median attorney working less than 2000 hours.

[Anonymous User]

Anon you’re replying to. Sure, that all makes sense. I guess my real point is for people considering biglaw and looking at threads like these is whether you can guarantee you’re at or below median. I agree with the people all around this site who say that there are ways to protect your time, and some gunners are always going to gun, but I also think some of the above median people just get crushed based on circumstances (who they work for, what happens on their cases, etc). It seems like one of the underlying themes of this thread is “see, it doesn’t have to be so bad,” and that’s probably true, but it feels like there are way too many factors outside an individual’s control to use any of these threads as a predictor of someone’s experience in biglaw (and of course that may not be what you individually meant to do, it’s just what I think about reading this).

[Anonymous User]

Anon you’re replying to. Sure, that all makes sense. I guess my real point is for people considering biglaw and looking at threads like these is whether you can guarantee you’re at or below median. I agree with the people all around this site who say that there are ways to protect your time, and some gunners are always going to gun, but I also think some of the above median people just get crushed based on circumstances (who they work for, what happens on their cases, etc). It seems like one of the underlying themes of this thread is “see, it doesn’t have to be so bad,” and that’s probably true, but it feels like there are way too many factors outside an individual’s control to use any of these threads as a predictor of someone’s experience in biglaw (and of course that may not be what you individually meant to do, it’s just what I think about reading this).

Numbers anon - I think we're talking past each other. I understood your point to be that a 2k hour experience is uncommon, so I wanted to respond to that . You're absolutely right that is not reflective of everyone's experience. But it's absolutely doable for most people with a little effort. And if you happen to be one of the unlucky ones that gets dumped on by a particular partner, then in this market you can just lateral.

This is probably what we disagree on most: I think more often that not those with high hours either fail to set boundaries or take it upon themselves to be perfect. Those are common traits among those that choose to go to law school (and then get into good law schools, make it into biglaw, etc.). I'm one of those people and have billed >3k before (and never below ~2500). I used to blame my firm for dumping work on me, but as I've become more senior I realized that I was the problem. The firm is certainly an enabler, but in the end of the day managing my hours is on me.

[Anonymous User]

Anon you’re replying to. Sure, that all makes sense. I guess my real point is for people considering biglaw and looking at threads like these is whether you can guarantee you’re at or below median. I agree with the people all around this site who say that there are ways to protect your time, and some gunners are always going to gun, but I also think some of the above median people just get crushed based on circumstances (who they work for, what happens on their cases, etc). It seems like one of the underlying themes of this thread is “see, it doesn’t have to be so bad,” and that’s probably true, but it feels like there are way too many factors outside an individual’s control to use any of these threads as a predictor of someone’s experience in biglaw (and of course that may not be what you individually meant to do, it’s just what I think about reading this).

Numbers anon - I think we're talking past each other. I understood your point to be that a 2k hour experience is uncommon, so I wanted to respond to that . You're absolutely right that is not reflective of everyone's experience. But it's absolutely doable for most people with a little effort. And if you happen to be one of the unlucky ones that gets dumped on by a particular partner, then in this market you can just lateral.

This is probably what we disagree on most: I think more often that not those with high hours either fail to set boundaries or take it upon themselves to be perfect. Those are common traits among those that choose to go to law school (and then get into good law schools, make it into biglaw, etc.). I'm one of those people and have billed >3k before (and never below ~2500). I used to blame my firm for dumping work on me, but as I've become more senior I realized that I was the problem. The firm is certainly an enabler, but in the end of the day managing my hours is on me.

Fair enough. Thanks for the response.

[Anonymous User]

my last four months: 374, 239, 363, 374

y'all are blessed

[Anonymous User]

my last four months: 374, 239, 363, 374

y'all are blessed

That's just too crazy assuming those are honestly billed hours. You must get out of that hell. That's just too much.

[Anonymous User]

I've billed 80-100 a month since November, when I decided to lateral and just ride things out for a while until pulling the trigger. It's been uncomfortable and I have been prodded by partners in ways that my former 200 hours/month brain hates, but I know that I have at least until March hours are in before I get the talk (which is why I will be giving notice on April 1).

[Sackboy]

my last four months: 374, 239, 363, 374

y'all are blessed

1,350 hours in 4 months is a 4k hour pace. Your firm should be sliding a gold bar in your pocket every payday. If not, you should go somewhere else. You do not need to work those hours to have a successful legal career.

[Anonymous User]

my last four months: 374, 239, 363, 374

y'all are blessed

1,350 hours in 4 months is a 4k hour pace. Your firm should be sliding a gold bar in your pocket every payday. If not, you should go somewhere else. You do not need to work those hours to have a successful legal career.

is unfortunate. comfortably above market comp, partners are smart+hardworking+kind (not sarcasm), matters are interesting ... i just wanna get more than 5 hours of sleep a night M-Fri.

[2013]

my last four months: 374, 239, 363, 374

y'all are blessed

1,350 hours in 4 months is a 4k hour pace. Your firm should be sliding a gold bar in your pocket every payday. If not, you should go somewhere else. You do not need to work those hours to have a successful legal career.

is unfortunate. comfortably above market comp, partners are smart+hardworking+kind (not sarcasm), matters are interesting ... i just wanna get more than 5 hours of sleep a night M-Fri.

Your partners are not kind if they’re letting you bill at a 4000 hr pace. They’re greedy and you should leave.

[CiFULA]

my last four months: 374, 239, 363, 374

y'all are blessed

1,350 hours in 4 months is a 4k hour pace. Your firm should be sliding a gold bar in your pocket every payday. If not, you should go somewhere else. You do not need to work those hours to have a successful legal career.

is unfortunate. comfortably above market comp, partners are smart+hardworking+kind (not sarcasm), matters are interesting ... i just wanna get more than 5 hours of sleep a night M-Fri.

Your partners are not kind if they’re letting you bill at a 4000 hr pace. They’re greedy and you should leave.

also with those hours, you might not really be absorbing/learning as much. yes, a lot of on the job learning is by doing but i remember when i had a slew of 300+ hour months, it was a bunch of doing and getting shit out - i wasn't developing as an associate because i had no time to internalize and process. i mean, guess it depends on class year too (i was a first year then). i would push back or leave if it doesn't get better.

[Anonymous User]

my last four months: 374, 239, 363, 374

y'all are blessed

1,350 hours in 4 months is a 4k hour pace. Your firm should be sliding a gold bar in your pocket every payday. If not, you should go somewhere else. You do not need to work those hours to have a successful legal career.

is unfortunate. comfortably above market comp, partners are smart+hardworking+kind (not sarcasm), matters are interesting ... i just wanna get more than 5 hours of sleep a night M-Fri.

K&E? Which biglaw shop pays comfortably above market comp? I don't think hours would be that high at WLRK.

[Anonymous User]

Sounds like PW (discretionary bonuses twice per year now) or Skadden (retention bonuses) to me.

[Anonymous User]

am "crushed anon." it's a KH/WLRK/SG/etc situation/compensation difference. if this were KE (or whoever else) i would have left as soon as the 2021 bonus check hit.

am obviously very stupid person for getting myself in this position + working this much. thankfully not stupid enough to do it for just an extra $25K or whatever post-tax