Prospective Summer Walks Over Moscow Work Forum

[Anonymous User]

We don't really know the details, but I don't think a question like "Do you intend to leave Russia, like [X other biglaw firms have announced]?" is a ridiculous ask at all. You also assume that the firm could not "immediately act on it," as if they told him that they would do so but just needed more time. We don't know if that was the response.

We know the details. "Yesterday, I expressed my convictions about the firm's office in Moscow and their work for Russian banks and state-owned oil and gas companies. Despite their ‘concern’ and ‘sadness’, it was clear that no decisions were forthcoming. Today, I informed that firm of my decision not to participate in their summer program."

So he gave them less than a day to figure out how to drop all their clients before running out and writing a 3000 word Linkedin post.

[Anonymous User]

Every large law firm has extremely problematic clients (have heard of issuers with several employee deaths on their hands, escaping rape liability, child labor suits, and more) so not sure where we'll start drawing the line.

What a stupid comment. "We" dont have to decide where to draw the line. Everyone gets to decide that on their own, and they dont need to justify it to you. For me, defending labor suits or workplace hazard suits is not even in the same league as intentional bombing of hospitals, bombing civilian corridors, etc. Maybe for you that all goes in the "its all the same amount of bad category, so who cares, wheres my paycheck" -- and thats fine for you, your decision to make. But that doesnt mean someone else cant draw their own line somewhere else, and it certainly doesnt make them "extremely stupid."

He absolutely has the right to draw the line wherever he wants. The “extremely stupid” part is his self-aggrandizing and performative approach to this. Of course he doesn’t need to hide his reasons, but at the end of the day, he made something much more important all about him.

Exactly this. Ridiculous to be an incoming summer associate and start making demands of the firm's office structure when for all they know this is happening in the background.

Also, pretty laughable to equate having an existing Moscow office with supporting the intentional bombing of hospitals and civilians. Go get some fresh air and a reality check.

The comment I was referring to said it was "extremely stupid" to walk away from biglaw firm over this because (paraphrased) "all big law firms do bad things and we cant draw the line anywhere."
Thats a bad take. Whether it was "extremely stupid" to self aggrandize as he did-- I have no idea because I dont know how he self-aggrandized, as I havent actually read his linkedin or whatever. Not sure a single inkedin pots is self-aggandizing, either, but I get we all want to hate the kid. But that was not the take of the comment I was referring to-- which again, was, "all biglaw firms do bad things so its extremely stupid to draw the line here."

And as far as the "equating having a moscow office to supporting the bombings.." If its Skadden, they actually do lobby for the Russian government and government entities, and I can pretty much guarantee are right now being paid to lobby against sanctions being imposed for bombing hospitals and civilians. That goes way beyond "just having an existing Moscow office."

I was anon above who also agreed that can't say it was extremely stupid, but apparently for different reasons than you. I say it is extremely self-aggandizing and, frankly, profiteering on tragedy, but it might not be stupid because this might help this kids career depending on what he is going into (e.g., charlatan recognize charlatan). And not sure what you mean by linkedin, there is a whole cottage industry of "linkedin influencers" who make posts about how awesome they are and self promote so extremely and without shame that it would make tiktok THOTs blush.

In any case, as Omar Hassan commented on the kids post "Please Stand With Other Countries When The Same Happens To Them", and the kid "Agreed", I fully expect the kid to have the same stance regarding firms with USA offices, given that USA is just as guilty of bombing civilians. Maybe Greenland has an office this kid can work at.

[Anonymous User]

We don't really know the details, but I don't think a question like "Do you intend to leave Russia, like [X other biglaw firms have announced]?" is a ridiculous ask at all. You also assume that the firm could not "immediately act on it," as if they told him that they would do so but just needed more time. We don't know if that was the response.

We know the details. "Yesterday, I expressed my convictions about the firm's office in Moscow and their work for Russian banks and state-owned oil and gas companies. Despite their ‘concern’ and ‘sadness’, it was clear that no decisions were forthcoming. Today, I informed that firm of my decision not to participate in their summer program."

So he gave them less than a day to figure out how to drop all their clients before running out and writing a 3000 word Linkedin post.

No, we don’t. Taking him at his word, their response to him made it clear that they were not going to leave Russia. Reading between the lines, he unreasonably expected to learn some internal business decision more quickly than it would be made public. But the firm has not yet left anyway so perhaps the response was more fulsome. I’m not sure how long he needed to wait before it would be reasonable in your eyes for him to leave the summer program.

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

Drawing the line at the firm having work in Russia is some peak shitlibbery. Helping corporations that continually fuck over this country (and the world more broadly) for the working class? Totally acceptable. Some of those corporations are in RUSSIA?!?!?!?! Too far!

Go ahead and tell me "everyone gets to draw their own line." So what? That's a truism. Some lines are completely moronic, though. Hope this privileged, virtue-signalling chucklefuck isn't able to get another job after this. Of course, that won't happen. I'm sure he's gotten over 50,000 likes on LinkedIn by now and is viewed as a hero by people who think that having pronouns in their email signature is revolutionary. God, I hate this profession and the dumbass politics that infests it.

And no, I don't and never have worked in big law (by choice). I hope that is evident.

[Anonymous User]

Skadden really does consistently attract a certain kind of student from HLS (people who perform as social justice warriors, then quietly slip into biglaw). Not surprised at all, but no clue why Skadden. Debevoise too, actually.

I still laugh at my firm after we hired like half the Social Justice Fellows at one school, read on their bios about how they all hated our clients, then all of them took our money for the summer, and then left immediately. Great use of $500K, but smart on students' part.

[nixy]

It’s totally fine to decide where you want to draw the line wrt where you work, and totally fine that he decided not to work at the firm. I’m not even going to get into whether it was hypocritical or not - there are legit arguments either way.

And it makes perfect sense to tell the firm that’s why he’s leaving.

I found the LinkedIn post pretty insufferable though and strongly doubt that this is going to win him a lot of favors. I don’t think a HLS student loudly withdrawing from a fancy job impresses anyone (is it really a sacrifice? No - he’s not going to be destitute, he’ll get another job. Does it harm the firm? No - no one is going to care about losing one random SA. Whatever pressures there are on the firm to get out of Russia are going to operate completely independently of what this guy did. Does it look like he’s taking advantage of an international crisis to pull a publicity stunt? Yes, absolutely. I’d be willing to bet he was looking for an out from this gig already.)

[legalpotato]

Drawing the line at the firm having work in Russia is some peak shitlibbery. Helping corporations that continually fuck over this country (and the world more broadly) for the working class? Totally acceptable. Some of those corporations are in RUSSIA?!?!?!?! Too far!

Go ahead and tell me "everyone gets to draw their own line." So what? That's a truism. Some lines are completely moronic, though. Hope this privileged, virtue-signalling chucklefuck isn't able to get another job after this. Of course, that won't happen. I'm sure he's gotten over 50,000 likes on LinkedIn by now and is viewed as a hero by people who think that having pronouns in their email signature is revolutionary. God, I hate this profession and the dumbass politics that infests it.

And no, I don't and never have worked in big law (by choice). I hope that is evident.

Yes, I think even the most libby of libs would have a hard time defending this guy. But I don't get why the vitriol and wishing harm on him. Rather than hope he never gets a job, maybe hope he learns that life is complicated and nuanced and approaches ppl with differing views w/ more empathy and compassion moving forward....?

[Anonymous User]

Drawing the line at the firm having work in Russia is some peak shitlibbery. Helping corporations that continually fuck over this country (and the world more broadly) for the working class? Totally acceptable. Some of those corporations are in RUSSIA?!?!?!?! Too far!

Go ahead and tell me "everyone gets to draw their own line." So what? That's a truism. Some lines are completely moronic, though. Hope this privileged, virtue-signalling chucklefuck isn't able to get another job after this. Of course, that won't happen. I'm sure he's gotten over 50,000 likes on LinkedIn by now and is viewed as a hero by people who think that having pronouns in their email signature is revolutionary. God, I hate this profession and the dumbass politics that infests it.

And no, I don't and never have worked in big law (by choice). I hope that is evident.

Yes, I think even the most libby of libs would have a hard time defending this guy. But I don't get why the vitriol and wishing harm on him. Rather than hope he never gets a job, maybe hope he learns that life is complicated and nuanced and approaches ppl with differing views w/ more empathy and compassion moving forward....?

Sorry, I shouldn't be so vindictive, but it's easy to fall into the mentality when I encounter this type of BS almost daily in various encounters with fellow attorneys and law students. It's ubiquitous (I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling this way).

[Anonymous User]

The bigger the soapboxer a person is, the crazier the mental gymnastics. I've heard it all by now.

"I have to do it to pay off my loans."
"Oh I don't support X, that's just what the law says. Someone really oughta change the law."
"Oh I don't support X, I just want to get experience on the best deals/for the best partners."
"I didn't decide to do the deal; I'm just a cog in the machine."
"If I don't do it, someone else will anyway."
"I mean this is all just between big corporations regardless."
"A bunch of other jobs involve being a corporate stooge too."
"I actually do X amount of pro bono."
"The plaintiff side are actually the money grubbers who file frivolous stuff all the time."
"I mean...*awkward silence*"
"Look, I'm a good person."

I've watched more than one person break into tears trying to answer this question. I used to think it was a tough but reasonable question you could discuss among friends. The cognitive dissonance on people's faces looks actually painful. I never bring it up IRL anymore. Not because I don't want you to find your answer to that question (you definitely need to); I'm just not gonna be the bad guy for making you learn the beliefs you thought were dearly held were actually for up for sale the whole time (at a pretty cheap price, really).

CLS was (and presumably still is) full of loud do-gooders who talked about how they were gonna do XYZ and check every liberal box and, lo and behold, 90%+ of the class wound up doing OCI. I'm sure there was some virtue signaling and a healthy dose of people just fully talking out of their ass, but I don't doubt that the majority of the people who said they were gonna do something good for the world legitimately intended it (at least at some point).

But, you know, those loans, so maybe you can give it a few years, then you can do something you actually wanted, so for now just suck it up, it'll be fine, tweet "Believe all women" on Monday and write your memo on why the CEO who molested 18 interns is actually just a great mentor to his female employees on Tuesday, put a Pan-African flag background on your Instagram picture for Black History Month on Wednesday and help your client foreclose on 43 black-owned businesses on Thursday, try not to stare in the mirror too long on Friday, you're making *some* progress on those loans, but you know, NYC is expensive and you have a $3200 apartment ("Not gonna live in fucking Hell's Kitchen") and when you get a break you take $29 Ubers to meet your boys for $17 craft cocktails, and you've got eight weddings and three bachelor parties this year, and you billed 260 last month so you got yourself a $400 jacket as a little "you're worth it" gift, and your one friend from study abroad does charity events for dogs with Down syndrome, and you're still trying to take that trip to Miami for a week if you can, because, you know, you work hard and you deserve to spend your money how you see fit, and why can't there be a job where you can do some good, be home by 6:30 and still get a decent pair of shoes every now and then, and whoa, now you're 31 and Colleen is really getting antsy on the kid thing and eventually you're gonna need a decent school district and Jesus, look at these Westchester property taxes, and you don't know how the math is gonna work as it is, and what on earth do you want to do in the public interest field anyway, and how would you break into it *now* and goddammit, the study abroad friend is now the Director of Sustainable Water for Burkina Faso BeneFactors, and you're just so fucking tired all the time and one day you just wake up and decide this is who you are now and that flame in your heart to genuinely do some good that you dampened year by year with every comma and every "Will do, thanks, sent from my iPhone" is really finally fully extinguished. Kamala 2024 though.

Re-upping this classic post in light of this thread

[Anonymous User]

The bigger the soapboxer a person is, the crazier the mental gymnastics. I've heard it all by now.

"I have to do it to pay off my loans."
"Oh I don't support X, that's just what the law says. Someone really oughta change the law."
"Oh I don't support X, I just want to get experience on the best deals/for the best partners."
"I didn't decide to do the deal; I'm just a cog in the machine."
"If I don't do it, someone else will anyway."
"I mean this is all just between big corporations regardless."
"A bunch of other jobs involve being a corporate stooge too."
"I actually do X amount of pro bono."
"The plaintiff side are actually the money grubbers who file frivolous stuff all the time."
"I mean...*awkward silence*"
"Look, I'm a good person."

I've watched more than one person break into tears trying to answer this question. I used to think it was a tough but reasonable question you could discuss among friends. The cognitive dissonance on people's faces looks actually painful. I never bring it up IRL anymore. Not because I don't want you to find your answer to that question (you definitely need to); I'm just not gonna be the bad guy for making you learn the beliefs you thought were dearly held were actually for up for sale the whole time (at a pretty cheap price, really).

CLS was (and presumably still is) full of loud do-gooders who talked about how they were gonna do XYZ and check every liberal box and, lo and behold, 90%+ of the class wound up doing OCI. I'm sure there was some virtue signaling and a healthy dose of people just fully talking out of their ass, but I don't doubt that the majority of the people who said they were gonna do something good for the world legitimately intended it (at least at some point).

But, you know, those loans, so maybe you can give it a few years, then you can do something you actually wanted, so for now just suck it up, it'll be fine, tweet "Believe all women" on Monday and write your memo on why the CEO who molested 18 interns is actually just a great mentor to his female employees on Tuesday, put a Pan-African flag background on your Instagram picture for Black History Month on Wednesday and help your client foreclose on 43 black-owned businesses on Thursday, try not to stare in the mirror too long on Friday, you're making *some* progress on those loans, but you know, NYC is expensive and you have a $3200 apartment ("Not gonna live in fucking Hell's Kitchen") and when you get a break you take $29 Ubers to meet your boys for $17 craft cocktails, and you've got eight weddings and three bachelor parties this year, and you billed 260 last month so you got yourself a $400 jacket as a little "you're worth it" gift, and your one friend from study abroad does charity events for dogs with Down syndrome, and you're still trying to take that trip to Miami for a week if you can, because, you know, you work hard and you deserve to spend your money how you see fit, and why can't there be a job where you can do some good, be home by 6:30 and still get a decent pair of shoes every now and then, and whoa, now you're 31 and Colleen is really getting antsy on the kid thing and eventually you're gonna need a decent school district and Jesus, look at these Westchester property taxes, and you don't know how the math is gonna work as it is, and what on earth do you want to do in the public interest field anyway, and how would you break into it *now* and goddammit, the study abroad friend is now the Director of Sustainable Water for Burkina Faso BeneFactors, and you're just so fucking tired all the time and one day you just wake up and decide this is who you are now and that flame in your heart to genuinely do some good that you dampened year by year with every comma and every "Will do, thanks, sent from my iPhone" is really finally fully extinguished. Kamala 2024 though.

Re-upping this classic post in light of this thread

I like how you can always tell a Mono post. Just perfect

[Anonymous User]

Re-upping this classic post in light of this thread

I'm the anon who complained about the "shitlibbery" of this all. Quality post. Thanks for sharing.

I actually attended CLS funnily enough, and it's all pretty true. I remember once I told a student that I wasn't planning on doing biglaw post-law school, and instead planned on going into public interest. She legit called me privileged, said something like "enjoy your stupid fucking ACLU", and then justified herself going into biglaw by saying that she was helping close the racial income gap (she was a person of color, for context). Meanwhile, she'd gone to a bougie private high school in Connecticut while I grew up in rural-ish Pennsylvania in a household whose annual income sometimes didn't exceed $20k. Mental gymnastics, indeed.

Another time, some dude asked me if I had a goal of becoming rich, and I responded, "Eh, just comfortable." And in response I got told "That's some privileged white person shit." Made me sad because I'd thought about how hard my dad worked all his life for so little money in the end, and how I just wanted to avoid that for myself and future family. According to the bleeding hearts of CLS, that made me privileged.

The funniest moment of classism was when I told someone my dad had worked night shifts at a factory, and she just said "He sounds creepy" and moved on in the conversation, lol.

Swear to God I'm making none of this up. Class consciousness is quite a foreign concept to these students.

[Anonymous User]

The funniest moment of classism was when I told someone my dad had worked night shifts at a factory, and she just said "He sounds creepy" and moved on in the conversation, lol.

I attend CLS too so I’m plenty familiar with the mental gymnastics and classism here but this (excerpted) is still very much WTF . . .

[Anonymous User]

The funniest moment of classism was when I told someone my dad had worked night shifts at a factory, and she just said "He sounds creepy" and moved on in the conversation, lol.

I attend CLS too so I’m plenty familiar with the mental gymnastics and classism here but this (excerpted) is still very much WTF . . .

Yea. To be fair, it was the most baffling moment I had in law school. It certainly wasn't the norm. Never spoke with her again.

[BrowsingTLS]

"If I don't do it, someone else will anyway."

Re-upping this classic post in light of this thread

I can say the quoted part with a straight face.

The world will turn, the work will be done, etc., so it may as well be me getting the $$$. There's literally nothing wrong with that.

[Anonymous User]

Re-upping this classic post in light of this thread

I'm the anon who complained about the "shitlibbery" of this all. Quality post. Thanks for sharing.

I actually attended CLS funnily enough, and it's all pretty true. I remember once I told a student that I wasn't planning on doing biglaw post-law school, and instead planned on going into public interest. She legit called me privileged, said something like "enjoy your stupid fucking ACLU", and then justified herself going into biglaw by saying that she was helping close the racial income gap (she was a person of color, for context). Meanwhile, she'd gone to a bougie private high school in Connecticut while I grew up in rural-ish Pennsylvania in a household whose annual income sometimes didn't exceed $20k. Mental gymnastics, indeed.

Another time, some dude asked me if I had a goal of becoming rich, and I responded, "Eh, just comfortable." And in response I got told "That's some privileged white person shit." Made me sad because I'd thought about how hard my dad worked all his life for so little money in the end, and how I just wanted to avoid that for myself and future family. According to the bleeding hearts of CLS, that made me privileged.

The funniest moment of classism was when I told someone my dad had worked night shifts at a factory, and she just said "He sounds creepy" and moved on in the conversation, lol.

Swear to God I'm making none of this up. Class consciousness is quite a foreign concept to these students.

I'm surprised you heard that from those going into big law but maybe it was just a different vibe at my school. It sounds like you actually have a working class background but the most annoying shitheads at my school were the ones going to school on daddy's dime with a trust fund safety net saying how privileged and wrong all the working class students were for going into big law, even though many of those genuinely were going into big law just to pay off the loans and bounce.

My favorite of these shitheads was one person whose whole family was in big law including a parent who was a partner and they would look down at those with 300k in debt going into big law calling them selfish. Another one would feign understanding the working class struggle and genuinely show disgust at those going into big law but was living off their parents' money and enjoying luxuries (at least from my perspective) including getting weekly massages. Usually the big law focused students were pretty chill about doing their own thing but just my experience.

[Anonymous User]

I'm surprised you heard that from those going into big law but maybe it was just a different vibe at my school. It sounds like you actually have a working class background but the most annoying shitheads at my school were the ones going to school on daddy's dime with a trust fund safety net saying how privileged and wrong all the working class students were for going into big law, even though many of those genuinely were going into big law just to pay off the loans and bounce.

My favorite of these shitheads was one person whose whole family was in big law including a parent who was a partner and they would look down at those with 300k in debt going into big law calling them selfish. Another one would feign understanding the working class struggle and genuinely show disgust at those going into big law but was living off their parents' money and enjoying luxuries (at least from my perspective) including getting weekly massages. Usually the big law focused students were pretty chill about doing their own thing but just my experience.

I hope I didn't come across as implying that I think most people who go into biglaw act this way. Of course many people, including CLS students, are going into it purely because they have tons of loans. My issue is with those students and associates who get so self-righteous about the fact that they're going into it, and employ mental gymnastics and excuses to paint it as some sort of noble pursuit. And those who moralize choices such as working for Firm X over Firm Y (like the student this thread is about). If you're going into it for the money, just say it.

[Anonymous User]

.

[jotarokujo]

I'm surprised you heard that from those going into big law but maybe it was just a different vibe at my school. It sounds like you actually have a working class background but the most annoying shitheads at my school were the ones going to school on daddy's dime with a trust fund safety net saying how privileged and wrong all the working class students were for going into big law, even though many of those genuinely were going into big law just to pay off the loans and bounce.

My favorite of these shitheads was one person whose whole family was in big law including a parent who was a partner and they would look down at those with 300k in debt going into big law calling them selfish. Another one would feign understanding the working class struggle and genuinely show disgust at those going into big law but was living off their parents' money and enjoying luxuries (at least from my perspective) including getting weekly massages. Usually the big law focused students were pretty chill about doing their own thing but just my experience.

I hope I didn't come across as implying that I think most people who go into biglaw act this way. Of course many people, including CLS students, are going into it purely because they have tons of loans. My issue is with those students and associates who get so self-righteous about the fact that they're going into it, and employ mental gymnastics and excuses to paint it as some sort of noble pursuit. And those who moralize choices such as working for Firm X over Firm Y (like the student this thread is about). If you're going into it for the money, just say it.

i'm seeing a lot of mental gymnastics "i'm forced to do biglaw because debt" this doesn't work for two reasons 1. you didn't have to go to law school which is what created the debt 2. (for some schools) LRAP

it's okay to work to make money. why try to make up reasons?

[Anonymous User]

I remember once I told a student that I wasn't planning on doing biglaw post-law school, and instead planned on going into public interest. She legit called me privileged, said something like "enjoy your stupid fucking ACLU", and then justified herself going into biglaw by saying that she was helping close the racial income gap (she was a person of color, for context).

When biglaw becomes the woke option, we're all doomed. Though my guess here is that the counterparty thought that the author was one of those public-interest-or-you're-evil types (I've met a bunch of those at my YHS) and felt a need to preemptively lash out.

[Anonymous User]

Law students really are insufferable. This kid clearly think he's a Very Big Deal because he attends HLS. Does he get that 600 people a year graduate from HLS?

The law firm I work at (not gonna call it "my firm" because I realize I'm a cog) does respect an HLS degree, but not in a meaningfully different way than we respect CLS, NYU, Chicago, Penn, etc. There are so many HLS grads in New York City that nobody gives too much of a fuck. It will barely even help you get a match on Hinge here, tbh.

[2013]

Law students really are insufferable. This kid clearly think he's a Very Big Deal because he attends HLS. Does he get that 600 people a year graduate from HLS?

The law firm I work at (not gonna call it "my firm" because I realize I'm a cog) does respect an HLS degree, but not in a meaningfully different way than we respect CLS, NYU, Chicago, Penn, etc. There are so many HLS grads in New York City that nobody gives too much of a fuck. It will barely even help you get a match on Hinge here, tbh.

To be fair, I know a number of HLS grads, and none of them were ever this insufferable. They also thought this guy’s actions were cringe and thought he was naive because most biglaw firms have some questionable clients/work. Based on his actions, I’m assuming he’s a K-JD.

[Anonymous User]

Something really freeing about being a pro market capitalist, I don't have to twist myself into mental gymnastics to justify what I do. In fact it's a lot cleaner than non law industries I worked in prior. (caveat that I would not be comfortable with doing work with Russia, and am glad my firm doesn't have much work there. A general response to the progressive law students to corporate lawyer pipeline)

[Saami]

Something really freeing about being a pro market capitalist, I don't have to twist myself into mental gymnastics to justify what I do. In fact it's a lot cleaner than non law industries I worked in prior. (caveat that I would not be comfortable with doing work with Russia, and am glad my firm doesn't have much work there. A general response to the progressive law students to corporate lawyer pipeline)

You're not a capitalist. You're a worker who supports capitalism.

[Anonymous User]

Something really freeing about being a pro market capitalist, I don't have to twist myself into mental gymnastics to justify what I do. In fact it's a lot cleaner than non law industries I worked in prior. (caveat that I would not be comfortable with doing work with Russia, and am glad my firm doesn't have much work there. A general response to the progressive law students to corporate lawyer pipeline)

You're not a capitalist. You're a worker who supports capitalism.

How much money in investments (including real estate) does one need to make the transition from a proletariat to a capitalist who works on the side?